Black Lance Questions

PSJaguar

Captain
Hello my friends. I have been considering The Project lately, and I have a few things I would like to ask/discuss.

Price of Freedom covers quite well the Lance detachments "testing Kilrathi technology" on the Lexington and the Princeton. I can't say I recall what exactly those detachments were up to. Were they the ones doing all the commerce raiding that incited the Border Worlds- Confed tensions? How about the Gen-Select strikes?

We saw in the instance of the Princeton's capture that she was carrying Dragons, but that she was ferrying them to the Vesuvius. I don't think it was ever mentioned, but would the above-mentioned detachments actually make use of the Dragon? Or would the matte-black Hellcat be their fighter of choice?

Do you think the two aforementioned fleet carriers would be the only Confed ships where the Lance usurped facilities and resources, or could there have been others outside Adm. Petranova's fleet?

Lastly, as something of a request, can anyone point me to a decent resolution pic of the Black Lance insignia? The Google is not strong with this one tonight. Further, has anyone ever seen/done any images of the Hellcat in Black Lance colors and markings?
 
From what I understand the only Kilrathi technology the black lance used was the clock. They were responsible for the confed/ boarder worlds tensions and they were involved with the Gen-Select strikes on the edge of the boarder worlds territory. But for any ship the black lance used other then the dragon they left it in its faction colors to instigate the tensions with confed and the boarder worlds.
 
Didn't the Black Lance have a transport and a carrier of independent designs, that looked nothing like a normal Confed vessel? What were their names?
 
Didn't the Black Lance have a transport and a carrier of independent designs, that looked nothing like a normal Confed vessel? What were their names?

There's a couple that come to mind, but I'm not sure we're ever given names (or classes) or any of them.

The first is the Jammer Craft, which is essentially a WC3/WC4 Confed Transport with some containers on it and a bunch of antenna areas.
Image: https://www.wcnews.com/ships/images/wc4jammer.jpg

The second is the Black Lance Carrier, which if I recall correctly never appeared in game. There's a screenshot of it's textures and model in the CIC news, and I believe it makes an appearance in the HW2 mod.
Image: https://cdn.wcnews.com/newshots/full/blcarrier.jpg

Were they the ones doing all the commerce raiding that incited the Border Worlds- Confed tensions?

My understanding from multiple readings of the novel is that there was some legitimate raiding going on by pirates and the like, but far below the acceptable levels that would call for a civil war, and Black Lance units manipulated the situation through raids of their own to give the apperance of a much more serious series of events in order to spark the result they wanted

How about the Gen-Select strikes?

This was exclusively Black Lance in origin and execution.

I don't think it was ever mentioned, but would the above-mentioned detachments actually make use of the Dragon?

I'm sure if they were being transported aboard the intention was for them to be used for something.

Or would the matte-black Hellcat be their fighter of choice?

My guess/assumption would be that the developments that made the Dragon such an effective fighter were derived from experimentation with the black Hellcats, which would then no longer be needed.

Also bear in mind at this stage that the project was being 'ramped up' - not quite to the point where it was ready for public revelation, but at least in the point where enough elements could operate in complete openness without garnering to much suspicion (how else do you explain them controlling a super carrier?).

Do you think the two aforementioned fleet carriers would be the only Confed ships where the Lance usurped facilities and resources, or could there have been others outside Adm. Petranova's fleet?

Evidence from Star*Soldier indicates that there are still are/were surviving Black Lance units throughout space that were being/had been actively hunted by the Confederation. Given that, it seems likely that they had control of other Black Lance resources 'somewhere' we're just not given or shown where, since I would say it's safe to assume the Vesuvius and the Black Lance station from WC4 were eventually taken back into 'loyal' Confederation service.

PSJaguar;371897Lastly said:
 
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Price of Freedom covers quite well the Lance detachments "testing Kilrathi technology" on the Lexington and the Princeton. I can't say I recall what exactly those detachments were up to. Were they the ones doing all the commerce raiding that incited the Border Worlds- Confed tensions? How about the Gen-Select strikes?

Both.

Initially, the detachment on the Lexington was simply studying captured Kilrathi technology (think a future equivalent of Operation Lusty). There were fifteen-odd Kilrathi fighters and a squadron of Hellcat and Thunderbolt testbeds.

The commerce raiding was originally being done by a "pirate" frigate modified to carry a fighter complement... which Blair and the Lexington destroyed in the Hellespont system. After this, a group of raiders (lead by Seether) were assigned to the Lexington to conduct raids from there.

The detachment on the Princeton was to be ferried to Axius, but it was flying combat missions in the interim (including, possibly, the gen-select attack on Telamon).

We saw in the instance of the Princeton's capture that she was carrying Dragons, but that she was ferrying them to the Vesuvius. I don't think it was ever mentioned, but would the above-mentioned detachments actually make use of the Dragon? Or would the matte-black Hellcat be their fighter of choice?

I don't think Seether's squadron had Lances on the Lexington; they arrived via shuttle and flew Black Hellcats (in the novelization).

Do you think the two aforementioned fleet carriers would be the only Confed ships where the Lance usurped facilities and resources, or could there have been others outside Adm. Petranova's fleet?

After the Lexington is destroyed, Seether notes that the Project has lost its "main portable platform. Their remote base would have to pick up the slack, lengthening mission times and increasing the risks of detection until they could get another asset like the Lexington under their control." Presumably they went after the Princeton as the replacement -- which was part of some other fleet (the Lexington was Admiral Petranova's only carrier).

From what I understand the only Kilrathi technology the black lance used was the clock. They were responsible for the confed/ boarder worlds tensions and they were involved with the Gen-Select strikes on the edge of the boarder worlds territory. But for any ship the black lance used other then the dragon they left it in its faction colors to instigate the tensions with confed and the boarder worlds.

They were studying a variety of Kilrathi technologies. One that's mentioned is a device in the wing root of a Dralthi that channels energy directly from the ships drives to its weapons. They did have 'Black Hellcats', which were a sort of precursor to the Lances (but of course the matte black paint schemes *were* Confederation colors...).

Didn't the Black Lance have a transport and a carrier of independent designs, that looked nothing like a normal Confed vessel? What were their names?

There was a transport used to ferry Lances, which Arena later named Evansville-class:

https://www.wcnews.com/ships2/images/4views/wc4blacklancetransport.png

It does seem to be a Project-exclusive design; Admiral Wilford gets strangely overcome about what an evil ship it is (I don't see it, personally...).

The carrier you're thinking of didn't appear in the actual game; it was built but ultimately removed - fans later found it dredging the codebase. That's a logical decision, since if the Project had its own type of carrier then it wouldn't have needed the Lexington or Princeton (or Vesuvius).

My understanding from multiple readings of the novel is that there was some legitimate raiding going on by pirates and the like, but far below the acceptable levels that would call for a civil war, and Black Lance units manipulated the situation through raids of their own to give the apperance of a much more serious series of events in order to spark the result they wanted

I'm sure there were ordinary pirates (as would be anyone who flew in the Gemini Sector...), but the ones we see in Wing Commander IV (with the possible exception of the two Razors at the very start of the game) are Project-funded/inspired.

Now, they weren't necessarily GE pilots -- but Seether was going around hiring mercenaries and the like to stir up trouble (remember the pilot at the bar on Nepehele who you run into later flying an Excalibur).

My guess/assumption would be that the developments that made the Dragon such an effective fighter were derived from experimentation with the black Hellcats, which would then no longer be needed.

They seem to still be flying Black Hellcats at the end of the novel (defending the Vesuvius).
 
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Black Hellcats

Would that be Hellcats with black paintjobs or 'Black' Hellcats with experimental weaponry etc?

I haven't read the novel.

They were studying a variety of Kilrathi technologies. One that's mentioned is a device in the wing root of a Dralthi that channels energy directly from the ships drives to its weapons. They did have 'Black Hellcats', which were a sort of precursor to the Lances (but of course the matte black paint schemes *were* Confederation colors...).

So, are the Kilrathi supposed to have more advanced technologies than Confed or just different? I've always been under the impression that they were more or less equal.
 
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So, are the Kilrathi supposed to have more advanced technologies than Confed or just different? I've always been under the impression that they were more or less equal.

I'd say different at the most. Sure, they're better with cloaks but their fighters are mostly "crummy furball technology" as it is said in WCATV. Also WC3 tells us that the Kilrathi are trying to close the gap to the Confederation.
BUt they seem to have capable capship designs. Tolwyn admits in the WC4 novel that the Vesuvius-class borrows Kilrathi technology from the super carriers that attacked Earth. In False Colors, Tolwyn also admires the design of backup-systems the Karga features.
 
So, are the Kilrathi supposed to have more advanced technologies than Confed or just different? I've always been under the impression that they were more or less equal.

There's a direct quote about this in the begging of Fleet Command when the Kilrathi are discussing the false peace. One of the Kilrathi says something to the effect of, and I'm paraphrasing because my copy is in storage, '...terrans hold the technological edge in fighter design, except for the small handful of stealth fighters we have...'

Hoping someone can find this. Might not be a quote, might be a narrative, but I'm sure it's there.
 
Not sure this is the passage you thought of but it fits:

Fleet Action p.261: "Except for the handful of Stealth fighters possessed by the Empire, fighter design and pilot training had never fully kept up with that of the humans."

It matches also WCATV's and WC3's claims and what we experience in the games.
 
Not sure this is the passage you thought of but it fits:

Fleet Action p.261: "Except for the handful of Stealth fighters possessed by the Empire, fighter design and pilot training had never fully kept up with that of the humans."

It matches also WCATV's and WC3's claims and what we experience in the games.

That was it exactly, thanks for tracking that down.
 
I'd like to clear up this inconsistency: What is the full, official name of the Black Lance's heavy fighter? It has been referred to as a Dragon here and a Lance there? What is its full, true name?

Finally, what was the ultimate fate of these starfighters, or their activation date?
 
I'd like to clear up this inconsistency: What is the full, official name of the Black Lance's heavy fighter? It has been referred to as a Dragon here and a Lance there? What is its full, true name?

Finally, what was the ultimate fate of these starfighters, or their activation date?

F-107 Lance

As for activation date I'd say 2673? but not sure. As for their fate, we really don't know too much. They don't appear to enter service in large numbers (as they seem to be very expensive fighters to produce with all their advancements), but I could be forgetting a source.
 
I'd like to clear up this inconsistency: What is the full, official name of the Black Lance's heavy fighter? It has been referred to as a Dragon here and a Lance there? What is its full, true name?

The official name is the F-107 Lance.

"Dragon" was a frequent (mission) callsign which became a nickname for the fighter itself (think of how the A-10 is called the "Warthog" but is officially named the "Thunderbolt II"). Calling the organization the 'Black Lance' is a similar nickname, which comes from the fighter (and its classified nature). A more proper name would be the 212th Special Operations Squadron... or (in the novel) 'The Project' (capitalized as a proper name).

Finally, what was the ultimate fate of these starfighters, or their activation date?

I think that's all unknown. I believe the earliest we "see" them is in the novelization's prologue, which takes place in 2672. At least one survived through 2701 - there's a classified advertisement from a Lancer looking to replace the engine manifold (presumably one of Tolwyn's hidden GE pockets).

Of course, it's also possible that there's an ordinary Lance squadrons serving with the Confederation Space Force; there's nothing specifically wrong with developing a new fighter.
 
F-107 Lance.... Got it. Thank you. Was Dragon an alternative name or nickname? These things were nasty.

I once read on Wikipedia that due to the Lance's role in the destruction caused during the war, they were banned from further service. However, Wikipedia, being the questionable source it is, is not credible in this area, so I am not taking that for truth. However, given the atrocities committed at the hands of this terrifying craft, it is not impossible that this was their demise.
 
I once read on Wikipedia that due to the Lance's role in the destruction caused during the war, they were banned from further service. However, Wikipedia, being the questionable source it is, is not credible in this area, so I am not taking that for truth. However, given the atrocities committed at the hands of this terrifying craft, it is not impossible that this was their demise.

You're right to doubt that one, it isn't sourced -- it was an explanation used by various fan clubs to prevent people from giving all their characters overpowered Dragon fighters after Wing Commander IV came out. It's not something that's ever mentioned in the Wing Commander 'canon'.

The Lance was actually an outgrowth of the Excalibur program; like most of the other elements of his conspiracy, Tolwyn borrowed from pre-existing "legitimate" black sources.
 
True, I did hear that, and that the Lance may have in fact outperformed the already-powerful Excalibur. Still, do we know where its Dragon moniker comes from?

As mentioned before, the Lance was supposedly not seen again after the crisis. Is it same to assume that they were axed?
 
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