Best tactics against Vaktoth?

H

Highball

Spaceman
Alright, I'm finally on Wing Commander 3, after taking a hiatus from flying solely for the Confederation to fly for whomever I dang well pleased in Privateer and Righteous Fire. I have the difficulty set on "ace," which is where I have had it set any other time I have ever played the game, going back to my teenage years. I can't remember whether or not I cheated as a kid, but I can't stand the idea of cheating now.

Here's my problem: Vaktoths give me fits. I usually have to be a dick and tell my wingmen to attack them while I attack other ships that I know I won't have any problems with; then hope that my wingman has dealt with at least one Vaktoth by the time I'm done with whatever other ship I've been going after. When I get a wave of 4 or more 'toths, especially with no other ships for me to attack, I just go: "Oh, God." They tear me up. I can barely ever get a shot off at them that hits, missiles are ineffectual (they spam the decoys, so the missiles never hit), can't tail them or that nasty tail gun eats me up, etc. It's three times as worse if I'm in anything other than a Thunderbolt or a Longbow. I can't even imagine trying to take them down on any difficulty higher than ace. Hard? Crazy? Nightmare? You guys what do this have much more testicular fortitude than I.

Is there some sort of best tactic or tactics to use against them? I am sick and tired of having to lower the difficulty setting to not be killed after investing 20-25 minutes in any given mission. Tired of Vaktoths ruining me like it's cool. Any help is appreciated.
 
Actually on Nightmare (just finished it, moved onto Wing 4) the Vaktoth is kind of a respite - if you see a wing of Vaktoths (or Paktahns, they're easy too) at a Nav it's pretty much a sigh of relief. It's not actually that good of a ship, it's just the AI gets frequent afterburner use only for Vaktoth (and Aces) on Ace difficulty which makes a huge difference.

It is literally years since I've played the game on Ace so this is advice based on Nightmare. Hopefully it'll be useful.

Every Kilrathi fighter is vulnerable from the sides, whilst turning away from you after an attack run or towards you to begin an attack run. Vaktoths turn slowly and if you can close in fast and/or hit them repeatedly as they turn towards you they will probably turn away again.

Kilrathi rear turrets have blind spots. If you fly close to and above the rear of the enemy the turret usually misses. Keep your guns aimed as high up on the target as possible so as to remain in the blind spot. You won't be able to stay there for long enough to destroy the enemy but you can damage it, break off and come around for another run.

Speaking of which, always be prepared to break off tailing a turret ship once the turret starts hitting you. Use burners.

In the Arrow, you can try sliding across the rear of the enemy to attack the flanks. This works better on Paktahns and things attacking allies because they dodge less. In the Thunderbolt you should have enough shield strength to whittle the enemy down bit by bit. In the Hellcat...wait, why are you flying a Hellcat?
 
It's been a while since I played through WC3, but when I last did, I did on Ace, and so maybe my thoughts might help.

Vaktoths are tough. On Ace, they are indeed the hardest Kilrathi fighter to face, bar none. Try flying one in the Prophecy simulator and you'll see why...they really are an awesome fighter.

I actually had the easiest time taking on Vaktoths in a Hellcat. No, really. The Arrow's guns are so light that it can't damage them quickly enough, and it's forward shields get chewed up way too easily by the rear turret. The T-bolt can't keep up...the Vaktoth is simply faster and will always try to evade it. But the Hellcat is fast and nimble enough to stay close and (with careful flying) evade the rear turret, and the guns are powerful enough to actually scratch it.

Here's some tips:

1). In the Thunderbolt, you won't be able to keep up and tail it...so don't waste your AB fuel trying. Do as much damage as you can in the head on pass (your shields and armor are up to taking a few hits, and it's guns are so widely spaced they have a harder time hitting your narrow fighter). Then whip around and maybe use your burners a little to try to damage it from the rear. Again, your shields/armor are probably good enough to make the rear gun not completely suck. Take the other poster's advice and try for a side hit if you get the chance.

2). In a Hellcat or an Arrow, the tactics are the same, but they work better in a 'Cat (I never used autoslide in the Arrow because it always felt like cheating). Get on their tail, but don't tail them closely and stably, or the rear gun will chew you up. Instead, learn to fly "scissors"...angle above the ship and use your burners to close, then let off and dive below the thing and nail it with your guns as it passes your gunsight. Tap the burner here to keep your range close, then pull up and snipe it again. Rinse and repeat. Your weaving will make the rear-gun miss most of the time, and you have enough speed (with your burners) to keep up even though you're flying a longer path. You have to be real accurate with your shots though. This is easier against a Paktahn, but works against the Vaktoth.

3). In an Excalibur, you should have no trouble shredding them no matter how you fly.

4). In a Longbow, you just have to repeatedly try to down them in head-on passes. Yes, it sucks.

Also, don't fire missiles at them when they're burning and evading...the missiles will miss. But you can sometimes get a good missile shot off when they are in mid (slow) maneuver. This is most effective if their shields are already worn down.
 
The Paktahns are usually the ships I go after. Those are easy; just attack them from the side, as they have a much, much wider side profile than the Vaktoth. I take out the Paktahns with constant side strafing runs.

Ilanin said:
In the Hellcat...wait, why are you flying a Hellcat?
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Because my only two choices the game will allow me is the Arrow and the Hellcat, and I am not flying a mission in which I will be facing 10 Vaktoths (according to the CIC game guide) in an Arrow.

Thanks for the advice, peeps. I will try this out.
 
What's up guys, I just finished Wc3 on Crazy difficulty a week ago, and like llanin said, a wing of Vaktoths are actually a respite on the higher difficulties, if we're talking Pre-Excalibur missions, because once you have an Excalibur almost nothing is a threat.

Ok, on crazy difficulty the only ships I would consider flying, were the Arrow, T-Bolt or Excalibur. And I STRONGLY favored the Arrow over the T-bolt. The Arrow is so fast that when flying at full throttle (no burners) enemies are almost powerless to hit you. Flying a Hellcat on the higher difficulties is simply suicide as you take too many hits, and can't dodge missiles without burners or decoys.

The Arrow can actually dodge missiles without using its afterburners, which is a godsend on the difficulties where some enemies (Dralthi!) absolutely swarm you with IR missiles and you need to save your burners for that type of encounter.

So my advice for you would be, don't discount the Arrow. On Ace it would absolutely own the entire Kilrathi fleet, cap ships included. For one reason: autoslide.

Obviously you'll want to ignore this advice if you agree with Farbourne and feel that autoslide = cheat mode.

When facing Vaktoths or any other slow turret equipped fighter, pick an angle that will see you flying by the target, give a burst of burners to increase velocity some then hit the slide to lock in that speed. Rotate to keep your target in you sights, line up on the ITTS marker and blast away. The Vaktoth's turrets have difficulty tracking a speedy target that has any lateral movement relative to the turret, and though your gunfire will look like its spraying out of the side of your ship, you will rack up the hits. An Arrow's guns are indeed powerful enough to chew up a Vaktoth surprisingly quickly.

If you find yourself taking too much fire anyway, or someone fires a missile at you, you need to disengage the autoslide and burn out a different vector. You are very vulnerable to missiles while autosliding since your ship is moving in a straight line right, so you need to get skilled at popping it on and off.

If it's just turret fire that's wearing you down, flip off the autoslide long enough to change vectors then turn it on again and resume your rain of fire. If the target gets out of range flip it off and pick an angle that will get you traveling somewhere close to the target's current flight path. Never fly directly at a target, always try to maintain oblique angles to their general position. That's not hard considering they're always moving around anyway.

If things are getting too hot, afterburn to full speed, switch on the autoslide then release the burner key - your kps readout will return to cruising speed BUT your ship will actually continue flying at full-velocity without using fuel! You can fly away from the dogfight while the bogies vainly try to pursue you (rotate and fly backwards to keep an eye on them). At this point open up your power management screen and dump power into your shields, or damage control if you need be, to bring your shields and systems back up to full strength. If you want to cheat you can keep this up until your enemies run out of afterburner fuel, which makes them easier targets. If you just want to dive back in as soon as your systems are green just reallocate the power back where it belongs, disengage the slide, accelerate towards your targets, start sliding and blast at them as you fly through the middle of their formation - rotating to keep one in your sights as you blow past at OMFG speed.

Autosliding also helps you avoid the possibility of colliding with slower targets which can be a problem when your darting around with standard drives amongst a group of lumbering Vaktoths or Pakhtans. Collisions are deadly in an Arrow obviously...

So my advice to you is, respect the Arrow, and use autoslide constantly when engaging slow turret-equipped targets. Remember, Hellcats won't do you ANY favors, they are slow - quick to run out of burner fuel, have two fewer missiles than an Arrow and most importantly CAN'T autoslide! Good Luck.
 
I don't consider it cheating if it's something you can do without typing in a cheat code or turning on a cheat mode.

Now, here's a really stupid question: How do you autoslide? I've never played any WC game with a joystick, I've always used the keyboard to play, so if it's a joystick trick, I don't know it. I know how to switch power from one system to another, but I don't know what "autoslide" means. Is that where you lock in your afterburner speed with the "~" key? Or is it like a "shelton slide," where you afterburn away from your target at an angle, then turn toward him, cut your afterburners, and open up with full guns as you slide past?
 
Highball said:
I don't consider it cheating if it's something you can do without typing in a cheat code or turning on a cheat mode.

Now, here's a really stupid question: How do you autoslide? I've never played any WC game with a joystick, I've always used the keyboard to play, so if it's a joystick trick, I don't know it. I know how to switch power from one system to another, but I don't know what "autoslide" means. Is that where you lock in your afterburner speed with the "~" key? Or is it like a "shelton slide," where you afterburn away from your target at an angle, then turn toward him, cut your afterburners, and open up with full guns as you slide past?
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It's a shelton slide, but its different then the way it worked in WC1 and 2. Its not nearly as 'artistic' as in the first two games.

In WC3, you hit the Capslock key while traveling in an Arrow or Excalibur to 'lock' in your current heading and velocity. At that point you can rotate freely while continuing on the heading and speed you locked in. So essentially, you can fly sideways, backwards or at any angle in between. The advantage, as you can imagine, is that you can keep your guns trained on a target without having to actually tail it. It's an essential technique when facing anything with a turret, especially non destructible turrets like you find on fighter-craft.

So Capslock to activate, and hit Capslock again to turn it off. Turning it off causes you to immediately shoot off in the direction your nose is pointing with little or no drift. So you can imagine how nightmarish an autosliding arrow might seem to a Vaktoth as it slides by at high speed then immediately pops into a new vector and does it again.

It might take bit of practice to use effectively and remember once you hit the autoslide key let up on the afterburners, once you hit capslock the speed you were traveling, no matter how fast or slow is locked in until you end the slide. Slow slides are suicide, since essentially you're losing your ability to evade via maneuvers.
 
Szegedin said:
It's a shelton slide, but its different then the way it worked in WC1 and 2. Its not nearly as 'artistic' as in the first two games.

In WC3, you hit the Capslock key while traveling in an Arrow or Excalibur to 'lock' in your current heading and velocity. At that point you can rotate freely while continuing on the heading and speed you locked in. So essentially, you can fly sideways, backwards or at any angle in between. The advantage, as you can imagine, is that you can keep your guns trained on a target without having to actually tail it. It's an essential technique when facing anything with a turret, especially non destructible turrets like you find on fighter-craft.

So Capslock to activate, and hit Capslock again to turn it off. Turning it off causes you to immediately shoot off in the direction your nose is pointing with little or no drift. So you can imagine how nightmarish an autosliding arrow might seem to a Vaktoth as it slides by at high speed then immediately pops into a new vector and does it again.

It might take bit of practice to use effectively and remember once you hit the autoslide key let up on the afterburners, once you hit capslock the speed you were traveling, no matter how fast or slow is locked in until you end the slide. Slow slides are suicide, since essentially you're losing your ability to evade via maneuvers.
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This is not working. I am in an arrow, flying perpendicular to the side of the Victory. I hit caps lock to "lock in" an autoslide, then turn toward the Victory, and find that I am heading straight for it instead of sliding past it.

EDIT: Nevermind. I didn't realize I needed to hold the button down.
 
Highball said:
This is not working. I am in an arrow, flying perpendicular to the side of the Victory. I hit caps lock to "lock in" an autoslide, then turn toward the Victory, and find that I am heading straight for it instead of sliding past it.

EDIT: Nevermind. I didn't realize I needed to hold the button down.
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well, In my game the Capslock key toggles autoslide, no holding required.
 
ZOO-EY MAMA! THEY DON'T KNOW WHETHER I'M COMING OR GOING! They don't know what the heck to make of me! They sit there and get shot! SA-WEEEET!
 
Highball said:
ZOO-EY MAMA! THEY DON'T KNOW WHETHER I'M COMING OR GOING! They don't know what the heck to make of me! They sit there and get shot! SA-WEEEET!
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Try it on a cruiser sometime, the Arrow is suddenly the most deadly ship in space. Just slide by its rear-end at top speed five or six times with 75% power to guns. Blammo! Who needs torpedos?

This may be why some rightly consider autoslide a bit unfair.
 
Well, as Wedge put it in another thread, it is using what is normally available to a player during a mission without typing in cheats or turning on cheat mode.
 
Just a quick update to this thread:

I want to thank everyone who contributed here. I started the game over the other day, as I had played a few missions on a lower difficulty setting a few times just so I could pass, and that did not sit well with me. After having gotten some advice here, I figured I'd start over and give it a shot. Well, Vaktoths don't really scare me too much anymore, unless I am fighting wave after wave of 4 or 6 of them.

However, I've started flying the Arrow any time my ship choices are limited to either Hellcat or Arrow. Scramble ("magnum launch") missions make me smile now, because I go: "ooh, Arrow. You suckers are in for it, now." :) I'm telling you, a couple of weeks ago, I used to think the Arrow was something I'd get "stuck" with. I also found out that the Excalibur will do this crazy autoslide, too, and with it's autoaim, there's pretty much nothing that can ever be a threat.

I've also figured out a few ways to avoid Vaktoths entirely. During Ariel 2, Flash and I knocked out the cap ships after having taken the number of Vaktoths from 4 to 1. After the capships were mopped up, we nailed the last 'toth, and the second wave of 4 never showed.

Even when I am flying other ships, if a Vaktoth shows up on radar, I just say: "Well, the brave and the bold..." and go after them. "I'll take a couple hits here, but you've gotta take some to make some." No more: "Oh, Christ...." I've also noticed that if you're in a heavier ship, and you taunt the living crap out of them, the Vaktoths will make direct, forward facing runs directly at you, and it's not hard to waste them with full guns after 2 or 3 passes.

Thanks, all!
 
Useless trivia--in the novelization, Blair claims that Vaktoth's have a flaw in their rear shield pattern just above the engines that can be taken advantage of.

Probably doesn't work in the actual game, though.
 
Bandit LOAF said:
Useless trivia--in the novelization, Blair claims that Vaktoth's have a flaw in their rear shield pattern just above the engines that can be taken advantage of.

Probably doesn't work in the actual game, though.
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Interesting! I've found that tailing them and flying "scissors" as Farbourne suggested works well, too, so maybe that's kind of the same thing like in the book.
 
Bandit LOAF said:
Useless trivia--in the novelization, Blair claims that Vaktoth's have a flaw in their rear shield pattern just above the engines that can be taken advantage of.

Probably doesn't work in the actual game, though.
Click to expand...

I don't know about a flaw in the shield pattern, but that's the sort of area I was talking about hanging around in because it doesn't seem to be covered by the turret, so close enough.
 
That one guy on Youtube seems to have a very clear tactic against Vaktoth, I'm surprised it hasn't been mentioned yet: Leech them. (Please consider that the following stuff is not based on own experience but only what I've seen in the videos)

Try to hit them with leech missiles on their first way in, then they'll be sitting ducks. They don't seem to be deflecting that with decoys, but they may take a last second turn and evade the leech missile that way. Of course you propably won't be able to leech all of them, but then engage the other ones like normal. It seems to be more of an endurance round than anything else... Try not to directly tail them, break off if there is any hint of their rear turret giving you trouble, and so on.

In the Excalibur you don't really need to leech them anymore, as with the auto-targeting you can attack and dodge at the same time. It still helps, of course, especially against mutliple enemys.
 
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