Banshee--light fighter or interceptor

[Ijuin]

The lasers are fine for taking on Stingrays and Morays, but are slow going against Mantas and nearly useless against Devil Rays. I would say that the Banshee is more of a missile craft--if you are out of missiles and Stormfire ammo, you can forget taking on anything heavy.

 

[Iceblade]

Exactly my perspective Jammyo2k.

@Ijuin: These banshee interceptors are not likely to be used for long missions or be alone in a big fight or defensive engagement*scramble*--unless cirumstances force such a situation to arise .

But, don't worry because you will be flying a Rapier2 instead of a banshee in the missions .

 

[Quarto]

@Ijuin: These banshee interceptors are not likely to be used for long missions or be alone in a big fight or defensive engagement*scramble*--unless cirumstances force such a situation to arise.

Didn't I just say that calling the Banshee an interceptor is very much missing the point? It's not an interceptor . It's a light fighter, that happens to be capable of taking on interception missions. Indeed, the fact that it carries HARM missiles is pretty good indication that it's capable of much more than that.

 

[Iceblade]

okay, okay Banshee light fighters/interceptors--primary purpose on board the Relentless, though, will be as an interceptor or light escort/patrol craft. I really just ignore those 2 harm missiles--which can't be all that big and they are certainly not that effective:
ooohhhhh I took out a turret....alright I got another one... ahhh man I am out .
Not very effective at all--now if you could take out turrets on corrvettes, then two would be somewhat effective.

 

[Quarto]

Given that the Ralari and the Fralthi, as seen in UE, had about four missile turrets each (and these were supposedly heavily upgraded versions), two HARM missiles per Banshee is damned effective... besides, you never need to destroy all the turrets anyway, just the ones that get in the way of the torpedoes. A pair of Banshees can easily do that.

Incidentally, whatever you do in your mod, you may want to ask yourself why Daniels' squadron only had a grand total of 2 Banshees. Because somehow, I get the feeling that if the Border Worlds had enougn Banshees to assign them to escort carriers, they wouldn't make strike carrier pilots fly Epees...

 

[Iceblade]

There are only going to be 9 banshees, and I just assumed that because Daniel's squadron is a scimitar squadron there would only be a few left on board left over from a squadron of banshees. Plus, the banshee is not capable of prolonged combat while the epee is quite capable of fighter for longer periods.
(faster speeds but limited weaponry compared to slightly slower but more powerful guns)

Here is my take:
scimitars:starting to be phased yet upgraded to make it last a few years more
banshees: fast and still effective but incapable of holding up in prolonged fights without refuel
epees: slower and slightly-less manuveurable but more powerful and capable of handling longer engagements
rapiers, rapier2s, raptors: too few

that is all I can think of

 

[Quarto]

My take is that there was like two dozen Banshees built altogether. This would explain why such a top-of-the-line craft appears so rarely - after all, the WC4 novel makes clear that most of the BW ships are old junk like Scimitars and Rapier 2s. In any case, the Banshee is clearly far more capable of long-duration combat that the Epee. Just compare their fuel (the Banshee and the Bearcat are the only BW ships currently in service that have fuel ratings comparable to WCP-era Confed fighters) and ammo. In short, 9 Banshees is 9 too much. But hey, it's your mod, your choice - since your project is not an official UE extension or anything like that, you're free to disregard my guidelines.

 

[Iceblade]

Hmmm, perhaps a few changes are in order. I frankly thought the banshee was a pre-WC1 old gizer of a craft that just hasn't been retired. Four sounds discent enough, eh?

BTW, how many of these Rangers are in actually use in the entire BWM navy. Is it five or is it some outrageous number like 12 or 18.
Hmmm....would it be okay if I have like 2 or 3 banshees come over from the Dauntless--probably not, but frankly we already know that there were banshees on board the Dauntless at some point--probably six or seven total. It would make sense that the Dauntless would be giving up its wings, starting as early as this even, and that it might as well give up its banshees except for a few which would get transferred to the Intrepid later on for its last stop. *will use e-mail in future*

 

[Delance]

My take is that there was like two dozen Banshees built altogether.

Considering how many Banshees we see on WC4, it should be way more than that. Blair blows up lots of them before he change sides, we see at least 3 more being blown up on Peleus, and even the Black Lance had some of them. If there was so little BW craft, Tolwyn would not be able to aquire so much of them without they even noticing.

That doesn't mean mass production, but, still, reasonable numbers to justify the amount of fighters found on the game.

 

[Quarto]

Considering how many Banshees we see on WC4, it should be way more than that.

I understand your point of view. However, when trying to work out anything about BW ships, you have to consider the difference between WC4 the game, and WC4 the novel. One of them includes only fancy new ships (well, not necessarily new, but with better stats than their Confed counterparts), while the other includes only junk. Now, all things considered, the novel's depiction of BW fighters seems more realistic. So, as a general rule, I go by what the novel has to say, while simultaneously assuming that those fighters from the game are around, just not very numerous.

Hmmm, perhaps a few changes are in order. I frankly thought the banshee was a pre-WC1 old gizer of a craft that just hasn't been retired. Four sounds discent enough, eh?

Well, the "pre-WC1 but upgraded" story can be used for just about any ship, especially in the case of the Border Worlds. But it would be very boring for all BW ships to be like this. Plus, it would be pretty ridiculous - compare the stats of BW ships from WC4 with their Confed counterparts. So, while there's certainly no reason why the Banshee couldn't be a pre-WC1 ship, this is not the explanation that I go by for UE. In UE, it is a new ship built in the early 70s or even late 60s in the Border Worlds, out of imported parts. The ship is high-tech, and consequently (because of the limited resources of the organisation that built it) was built in much smaller numbers, with a very high cost per ship.

BTW, how many of these Rangers are in actually use in the entire BWM navy. Is it five or is it some outrageous number like 12 or 18.

I currently have six Rangers listed for the BW. Of these, three have been lost.

Hmmm....would it be okay if I have like 2 or 3 banshees come over from the Dauntless--probably not, but frankly we already know that there were banshees on board the Dauntless at some point--probably six or seven total.

We do? How do we know this?
And no, it would make no sense whatsoever - from what you've told me, your storyline takes place at the other end of Vega, so it's rather unlikely that there would be an ex-Dauntless fighters onboard.

 

[Ijuin]

The way I see it, the Banshee's story is very similar to the Avenger's. The Avenger was originally a lightly armed shuttle that got modified for heavy combat, while the Banshee was a trainer or patrol fighter that got the scattergun and leech cannons added when the BW decided to use it for frontline service. The Vindicator seems to be the only BW ship of the WC4 era that was designed from scratch for frontline combat.

 

[Delance]

I understand your view, of course. The game/novel differences is a box best left closed.

Pehaps there's a balance somewhere between WC4 and TPOF.

 

[Iceblade]

I do agree that the banshees are pretty advanced and probably a new design as of WC4, but only 2 dozen more built is a bit small. They would probably build at least 1 every 2 months at the minimum which would be about 42 new banshees. But only 3 rangers left. *spoilers*//*static*//*end spoilers--yeah right, I am not telling you* e-mail ya Quarto

 

[Quarto]

The way I see it, the Banshee's story is very similar to the Avenger's. [...] The Vindicator seems to be the only BW ship of the WC4 era that was designed from scratch for frontline combat.

And how exactly do you know this?

They would probably build at least 1 every 2 months at the minimum which would be about 42 new banshees

Well... looking at my previous posts, I think I unconsciously fused together two numbers - the total number of produced Banshees, and the total number of Banshees in service, circa 2681. While I said "two dozen Banshees produced", I was actually thinking of there being about this many Banshees in service in 2681 - which would in fact indicate that there must have been at least a few more Banshees made. Not knowing what kind of attrition rate they suffered during the BL crisis and afterwards, I guess I can't really say how many were made specifically. Could have been thirty, could have been fifty (which also means that Delance is probably right, and I'm underestimating the number of Banshees available in the BL crisis). Note, however, that this doesn't change the situation at the time of UE - the number of available Banshees is tiny.

 

[rampage3057]

Well, you could always figure that the Banshee was just an older Confed craft (after all, a *very* different Banshee appeared in Armada) that the Border Worlds got ahold of and modified enough until they came up with a satisfying general configuration--hence the super-heavy Confed Banshee in Armada and the faster, sleeker, but more lightly-armored Banshee of WC4. (If you wanted to get really technical, you could probably rationalize that removed armor plating or reconfiguration of weapons results in the difference of appearance b/w the Armada and WC4/UE Banshee)
Also, you overlooked a real-world factor in stating that any ship that has tremendously high stats in the game must also be extremely high tech: maintenance and down-time. You can tune a mechanical device (be it racecar, airplane, cordless drill, or...starfighter) to operate at high performance, but for less time than if it was tuned normally. For example, real-world military fightercraft have always required far more maintenance than contemporary civilian planes; during World War 2, some of the highest-performance aircraft required their engine to be virtually rebuilt after only a few sorties. It is the choice of whoever owns and employs the [plane/car/fighter] of whether to leave the [plane/car/fighter] at normal tunings so that it can run reliably for a long time with little downtime, or to tune it so that it outperforms everything else in its environment but has massive maintenance requirements. Since the BW was so desperate during WC4, you could probably rationalize that they simply 'tuned' their Banshees' engines to run at higher speeds and for their shields and powerplants to output more energy, at the cost of reliability and service life. After all, I would think the BW would favor hit-and-run and quick raiding tactics to extended all-out fleet battles.
Thoughts?

 

[Iceblade]

ahh yes, Quarto.

Considering the big Kilrathi conflict just 6 or 7 months prior to Operation: Clean Sweep would have greatly depeleted the number of craft altogether--epsecially in their lighter armored craft. Five banshees were the only banshees left on board the Relentless after this conflict (out of close to 10 banshees)--about 50 more banshees had been created after WC4, but many were lost in this conflict. So, now these craft are used more sparingly until more can created until these resources would need to be focused more on a better fighter aka the Rapier4.

 

[Quarto]

Considering the big Kilrathi conflict just 6 or 7 months prior to Operation: Clean Sweep would have greatly depeleted the number of craft altogether--epsecially in their lighter armored craft. Five banshees were the only banshees left on board the Relentless after this conflict (out of close to 10 banshees)--about 50 more banshees had been created after WC4, but many were lost in this conflict.

I don't think you quite understand me - we're not talking about the number of Banshees created after WC4, we're talking about the grand total. Most of the losses were during WC4. Indeed, there was no big Kilrathi conflict prior to UE - just the usual raids, which have been going on for a decade. Not that this makes a difference - the point is, the BW does not have many Banshees left, and are not assigning them to escort carriers.

Let me be very clear about something - I'm not going to accept an increase in the Banshee's numbers just so you can use them in your mod. There are many ships out there that you can use - I know, for example, that a lot of people would be very happy if you show BW Razors. So, accept the restrictions and work within them. I understand you like the Banshee and would like to use it - but if fan projects did not abide by reasonable restrictions (and these restrictions are reasonable - meaning, I do have reasons for them ), pretty soon we'd be drowning in Dragons and Flashpaks.

Well, you could always figure that the Banshee was just an older Confed craft that the Border Worlds got ahold of and modified enough until they came up with a satisfying general configuration.

Yes, you could. There are dozens of different explanations we could make up. But you're missing the point, which is - I don't want to, because I'm happy with my current explanation .

Thing is, a fan project cannot exist in a vacuum. That means that I had to consider all these different explanations quite a long time ago, when working on UE - and, wherever possible, I had to choose one explanation to go by. Once I did so, even if this explanation was not directly stated in UE, everything was built around it. So, as far as UE is concerned, what I say about the Banshee being a new design from the 2670s is not one possible explanation, but rather fact. The only circumstances in which I would be willing to change my mind about this is if it turned out that this is invalidated by WC canon.

Also, you overlooked a real-world factor in stating that any ship that has tremendously high stats in the game must also be extremely high tech: maintenance and down-time. You can tune a mechanical device (be it racecar, airplane, cordless drill, or...starfighter) to operate at high performance, but for less time than if it was tuned normally.

Yep, I am aware of this. Although there was never any opportunity or reason to point this out in UE's fiction, I've always operated on the assumption that the BW tries to upgrade their ships any way they can (see UE's Banshee - its stats aren't quite like WC4 ), and the price they pay for it is the enormous maintenance costs. This is why the BW is increasingly desperate for new designs that can perform adequately against other ships circa 2681 without any upgrades - something that will be seen in UE2, if that ever happens.

 

[Ijuin]

I understand you like the Banshee and would like to use it - but if fan projects did not abide by reasonable restrictions (and these restrictions are reasonable - meaning, I do have reasons for them ), pretty soon we'd be drowning in Dragons and Flashpaks.

I would agree--keeping the game balanced is more important than adding extra fanservice. I am perfectly comfortable with the best heavy fighter (the Rapier IV) being a little weaker than the WCP Panther--if anything, the Vampire and Devastator were so powerful that the only way to make flying them hard was either to add time pressure or huge swarms of enemies.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

Well, you could always figure that the Banshee was just an older Confed craft

I'd have trouble believing that the Banshee is a 'native' Border Worlds fighter. At the outset of Wing Commander IV the Union has only existed for a matter of weeks... and unless you're going to believe Banshee's were designed, built and *aged* in that time you have to come up with a zany story to make them 'original' ("The people in the Border Worlds designed their own fighter for some reason.").

Couple with that the fact that Wing Commander IV was obviously designed to imply that the various Border Worlds ships were cobbled together with spit and glue to fight Confed... not that they were secret top of the line equipment that the colonials had been hiding just in case (heck, lets face it - that explanation would kind of change the very essence of WCIV's story... if the proto-Border Worlds have been building their own super-fighters then you're adding an unnecessarily sinister aspect to the 'good guys')

Finally, one that isn't intended but none the less exists... the fact that the TPoF novel doesn't mention them means that they can't be *that* special (compared to what the UBW has done with Rapiers/Sabres/Hellcats/etc).

Given those facts, there's two explanations that I've liked:

- That the Banshee is the 'ancient three man patrol fighter' (or somesuch) that the TPoF novel claims the Border Worlders have been upgrading to fight Confed. The connection itself isn't directly supported in the WCIV novel, but it's a good way to kill one birds with one stone (so you can say that the novel is referencing the Banshee here *and* that the Border Worlds doesn't have another fighter that we haven't seen before).

Alternatively:

- That Banshee is a Confed trainer that the Border Worlds have upgraded with modern (more modern?) technology. Again, not a direct claim - but reasonable given that Confed is using the Banshees as trainers in the winning endgame of WCIV.

 

[Delance]

Maverick: Look, Confed’s a much bigger machine than any of us can possibly imagine. That bastard Seether – and whoever he’s working with – can marshal incredible resources.
Hawk: Sure: mercenaries, pirates, Confed craft, our craft…
Panther: The unmarked ships.
Maverick: Yeah. All without the rest of Confed even knowing about it.
Panther: And, meanwhile, we come off looking like the bad guys.

(thanks to this site for the transcript)

A significant part of the bad guys plan was to use BW ships to commit random attacks and lay blame on them. This imply there's something unique about those ships, since it doesn't sound too hard to just paint a BW logo on an old scimitar.

On the other hand, LOAF makes a good point that the Union just exists for a couple of weeks, so there's no way they could design, build and aged ships on that period. Also, all the BW capital ships and fighters on WC4 have worn paint jobs and old BW logos, so they existed as they were for more than a few weeks.

My take: those were the "Borlder Worlds Militia" that the Senator was talking about. (Some sort of semi-independent auxiliar force?) So what we have on WC4 are some old confed fighters and some cheap and/or adapted militia fighters. The Banshee has "cheap" written all over it, and hardly classifies as a superfighter. The militia has basically outdated or improvised weapons like lasers (the most common and weakest gun of WC1), scatter guns and other variables over ion guns (more cheap weapons that Pliers had to come up with), and some stormfires they got their hands on.

We really don't know for sure that the Vindicator and the Avenger are too fantastic and expensive for the BW to have. In fact, no confed defector displayed signs of being particularly impressed or surprised by them.