Banshee--light fighter or interceptor

An important thing to keep in mind, and certainly very relevant when it comes to the Banshee, is that most nations and governments do not build their own planes - they get civilian contractors to develop and build them. Also worth noting is that aviation history is filled with successful military fighter planes that were taken up to prototype stage without any support from the government whatsoever, in the hope that the government would be impressed enough to order them after testing. Indeed, the famous F4 Phantom II (a figher built in bigger numbers than any other American jet, apart from the Sabre) was originally developed and submitted to the US Navy as an unsolicited design.

What's my point? Well, I never said the Union of Border Worlds developed the Banshee - obviously, they didn't. A company named Verier Underground did (on a sidenote, why Verier, not Vearrier? Is that intentional, or just a spelling mistake that stuck?). They may have hoped Confed would be interested, or the local militias, privateers and other private enterprises, or heck - they may have even been hoping to export it to Landreich. I don't know, and it doesn't matter - the point is, the duration of the Border Worlds as an independent nation is entirely irrelevant. Even had the UBW only existed for one day, they still would have been able to acquire new fighters, so the Banshee does not need to be an old fighter. What's more, the UBW obviously wasn't made overnight out of nothing anyway - they wouldn't have been able to set up an autonomous government (which is a pre-requisite to declaring independence) had there been no political will to do so, and no military and financial capabilities to reinforce this move afterwards. This means that, like every other newly-independent nation in history, the UBW was born through the merging of various local government branches and paramilitary organisations, and there is pretty clear indication that some of these paramilitary organisations had existed for a long time, with plenty of material support from Confed.

So, there is any number of ways that the existence of the Banshee as a new fighter ('new' meaning from the late '60s or early '70s - it could actually have been built during the last phase of the war) could be explained. And yes, none of this invalidates the other possible explanations. Certainly, that "ancient three-man patrol fighter" reference is a possibility, as is the idea that it was an old Confed trainer. But, at the same time, there is nothing conflicting with the "new fighter" explanation. I won't pretend that this particular explanation is more likely or solid than the others - I chose it for UE out of personal preference. Given how varied these things are in real life, it would simply be boring if the same old explanation was used for every single BW fighter :).

Delance said:
We really don't know for sure that the Vindicator and the Avenger are too fantastic and expensive for the BW to have. In fact, no confed defector displayed signs of being particularly impressed or surprised by them.
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No indeed... but the fact that nobody seemed particularly impressed doesn't change the fact that the Banshee is armoured and shielded almost as well as the Hellcat, carries more guns and missiles than the Hellcat, and still remains just about as fast and manoeuvrable as the Arrow. And when one fighter manages to combine the best features of the enemy's two most common light and medium fighters, that is impressive :).
 
wouldn't the Border Worlds have their own fighters already? it was stated in WC4 that the BW had been a "long-term ally during the war." They had to have had something to fight with.

oh. and is it just me or does the rate of fire on the lasers on the UE Banshee seem slower than the WC4 Banshee?
 
It's not you--they DO fire slower. The reason for this is because of the odd way that the SO engine handles multiple instances of the same gun. What happens is that the engine adds up the refire delay for the guns cumulatively. For example, let's say that T is the refire delay for a given gun. If you fire two of that kind of gun at once, you will get a refire delay of 2T, and for four of that kind of gun you will get a delay of 4T. If you have played WCP, you have probably noticed that the Vampire's quad tachyon guns take longer to refire than the Panther's dual tachyon guns, and this is why. The downshot of all of this is that you actually get more damage per second out of having two Tachyon guns and two Laser guns than you would out of having four Tachyon guns.
 
ah. well that kinda stinks. i loved the uber fast firing rate of the lasers in WC4. it let me just keep poundin away nonstop.
 
The only real problem with the WCP laser is the refire rate. The turret lasers on the Dev and the Shrike seem to fire much faster, making them guite useful.
 
We really don't know for sure that the Vindicator and the Avenger are too fantastic and expensive for the BW to have. In fact, no confed defector displayed signs of being particularly impressed or surprised by them.
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The Avenger shows up in Academy as a shuttle, giving us a sizable hint as to its backstory.

An important thing to keep in mind, and certainly very relevant when it comes to the Banshee, is that most nations and governments do not build their own planes - they get civilian contractors to develop and build them. Also worth noting is that aviation history is filled with successful military fighter planes that were taken up to prototype stage without any support from the government whatsoever, in the hope that the government would be impressed enough to order them after testing. Indeed, the famous F4 Phantom II (a figher built in bigger numbers than any other American jet, apart from the Sabre) was originally developed and submitted to the US Navy as an unsolicited design.
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Well, of course... this is Wing Commander fandom, so *everything* is made by Douglas Aerospace ;)

What's my point? Well, I never said the Union of Border Worlds developed the Banshee - obviously, they didn't. A company named Verier Underground did (on a sidenote, why Verier, not Vearrier? Is that intentional, or just a spelling mistake that stuck?). They may have hoped Confed would be interested, or the local militias, privateers and other private enterprises, or heck - they may have even been hoping to export it to Landreich. I don't know, and it doesn't matter - the point is, the duration of the Border Worlds as an independent nation is entirely irrelevant. Even had the UBW only existed for one day, they still would have been able to acquire new fighters, so the Banshee does not need to be an old fighter. What's more, the UBW obviously wasn't made overnight out of nothing anyway - they wouldn't have been able to set up an autonomous government (which is a pre-requisite to declaring independence) had there been no political will to do so, and no military and financial capabilities to reinforce this move afterwards. This means that, like every other newly-independent nation in history, the UBW was born through the merging of various local government branches and paramilitary organisations, and there is pretty clear indication that some of these paramilitary organisations had existed for a long time, with plenty of material support from Confed.

So, there is any number of ways that the existence of the Banshee as a new fighter ('new' meaning from the late '60s or early '70s - it could actually have been built during the last phase of the war) could be explained. And yes, none of this invalidates the other possible explanations. Certainly, that "ancient three-man patrol fighter" reference is a possibility, as is the idea that it was an old Confed trainer. But, at the same time, there is nothing conflicting with the "new fighter" explanation. I won't pretend that this particular explanation is more likely or solid than the others - I chose it for UE out of personal preference. Given how varied these things are in real life, it would simply be boring if the same old explanation was used for every single BW fighter.
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It seems to me that everything we're shown of the Banshee is specifically designed to imply that it's an old fighter. Just look at the Banshees we see in WC4: their paint has worn off, their armor is a mess of mottled replacement plates, their weapons are 'old' lasers... they've even got an ungainly angular look to them (versus the smooth modern Confed fighters). Add to that the game-established back story that the Border Worlds are scrambling to refurbish old fighters with spit and glue and abandoned transport guns. I don't think that there's any way you could convince me that the Banshee in WCIV is from the 'early seventies' - that'd mean that the fighters we see in WC4 are less than three years old!

I'm not claiming that they're old Confed line fighters - there's no way to determine that... it would certainly make sense that they were designed for use by militia squadrons. I just don't see how they could be modern, recently built militia fighters. I'm also not saying that the Border Worlds can't purchase fighters; certainly they could create their government on Monday and have a fleet of new fighters delivered on Friday. But were that to happen, the new fighters wouldn't look anything like the the battered WC4 Banshees.

Another point: The Border Worlds are a nation struggling to build a competent fighter force onboard their *flagship*... but these supposedly new Banshees are pretty darned common among militia units. Blair can shoot down up to 42 Banshees before defecting... only ten of which are likely to be part of the Intrepid's complement. (Twenty two belonging to the planet and spacelab-based militia squadrons at Tyr, ten as part of the convoy moving through Masa and then ten in Silenos that may or may not belong to Intrepid.)

Also: consider Pliers' reaction to Blair's Thunderbolt in the novel (and Maniac's Hellcat); he was ecstatic because he didn't have anything as modern as what Confed was flying (the Thunderbolt being five or six years old, the Hellcat being... debatable:)).

(Re: names - everything I have (guide, Origin's WCIV site and a couple of WCIV-related devdocs) says 'Verier'. That may just mean it was a typo very early on, though.)

No indeed... but the fact that nobody seemed particularly impressed doesn't change the fact that the Banshee is armoured and shielded almost as well as the Hellcat, carries more guns and missiles than the Hellcat, and still remains just about as fast and manoeuvrable as the Arrow. And when one fighter manages to combine the best features of the enemy's two most common light and medium fighters, that is impressive.
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Eh, I think the fault here lies in the fact that you're comparing it to the Hellcat... with all due respect to the 'look how wacky I am for liking the worst ship' club, the Hellcat blows. :) Compared one on one with Confed's equivalent light fighter (Arrow), the Banshee is about equal. They're not the same, but their respective faults more or less equal out: the Banshee has slightly heavier shields... and in turn it's heavier and a bit slower (and so forth).
 
Bandit LOAF said:
I don't think that there's any way you could convince me that the Banshee in WCIV is from the 'early seventies' - that'd mean that the fighters we see in WC4 are less than three years old!
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Yep, well, that's why I left open the 'late sixties' option ;). Would that be reasonable? I mean, basically, I just don't want the Banshees to be fifty years old or something. Late sixties means that they're new enough to not be obsolete and still old enough to look the way they do in the game.
 
The standard version of the Banshee had weaker guns than the standard version of the Arrow. The scatter gun was a adaptation made by Pliers, and it's debatable weather other Banshees not based on the Intrepid even had them. Even if they had it on the game engine, the AI never used them anyway. Same for stormfires. One of the plot points is that Pliers was doing every sort of tweaking and add-on he could to give BW fighters an edge in combat. Until it was upgraded, the Banshee was weaker than its confed counterpart. Counting upgrades, the Banshees would not be as advanced as the Arrows with cloaking devices that show up later in the game.

The Vindicator is the atmosphere capable fighter of the BW, so there’s the explanation for them. The Avenger, as LOAF indicated, is probably an adapted shuttle, which is hardly an indication of a superfighter. Surely it was a job well done, but still makes sense with the storyline.
 
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