A few WC questions...

[Dralthi5]

Eh, this might be an opportunity for a decent conversation...

After recently finishing WC2, SO1, SO2, WC3, and WC4 (was going to play Prophecy today, but there were... problems

), I have a few questions.

What's up with the almost father-son relationship of Bear and Tolwyn in the novels? I mean, I could see that Tolwyn respected Bondarevsky (the scene in the brig in SO1 makes that pretty obvious), but when and why did they become so close? Seems to me that Blair earns more respect for just about... well, everything. Even after Jazz was captured and Blair cleared in the Tiger's Claw debacle, it seems Tolwyn was real cold towards him (particularly in WC3). Just felt like bringing this up.

Also, I noticed that Stingray seems to act a lot like WC3-Maniac in WC2. ie. Arrogant and slightly belligerant. In SO2, Marshall was arrogant, sure, but not as belligerant as he was in WC3. Personally, I think Maniac's personality seemed to change just slightly from game to game. ie. In Wing Commander, he was young and eager, and just a tad reckless (he died the first time he flew on my wing

). In Special Operations 2, he was arrogant, but showed a level of maturity (like when he wanted to go after Minx because she was part of his squadron). In Heart of the Tiger, he was a jerk, always trying to hit Blair where it hurt (insulting Hobbes, making fun of Blair after he talked with Rachel, and cracking a grin after Hobbes killed Cobra). In The Price of Freedom, he was there mostly for comic relief, I think, but actually felt bad after Vagabond died, so he was starting to mature a deal more. In Prophecy, however, he was a bumbling fool (falling asleep in the briefing?) and a jackass to boot ("Shoo, plebe..."). What do you guys think?

Now, shifting to another front: Privateer 2. Following the main plot, where should that storyline end? ie. What's the final cutscene before you're sent off to explore the Tri-System and rack up the credits? Eh... I think you know what I mean? Another thing about The Darkening. Um, when you pay a wingman, how do you get him to stay with you for a certain mission. ie. I hit the next nav point, and I never hear from the wingman again.

Anyway, that's about it. Would appreciate some feedback.


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If I'm locked on, there's no such thing as evasive action!

[This message has been edited by Dralthi5 (edited August 21, 2000).]

 

[Vondoom]

The Father/Son relationship in the books was primarily done to expand upon Tolywn's character. The writer's had no idea that Roberts would have him ending up a traitor to his own people and thought that he would be an interesting character to build upon. Also Bear was great because they didn't have to copy the games and use Maniac and Blair, and have a lead character that was linked to the games but still mostly independant.

If you look from WC4 backwards, it is clear that Towlyn is very power-hungry and ambitious. His being wrong about Blair, the failure of the Behomoth, and Blair's destruction of Kilrah all hurt him somewhat ulitimatly. If the Behemoth had destroyed Kilrah, he would have been the most powerful man in Confed politically. His rise to power would have been much greater probably and Blair got in the way of that.

Maniac changed greatly in the games, enspecially the first one. In WC he was not only reckless but almost seemed insane near the end. In WC2, he is more responsible but still out there a bit. WC 3 he's a total prick. WC 4 he's almost human,(my fav interpretation of him). In Prophecy he's back to his irresponsible WC3 prickish self.

I'm not sure what you mean about the ending cutscene. Can't help you with the wingman either, been far too long since I played it.

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There is no God but myself. No destiny but what I deem for me. I walk my path and no others, for I am free.

 

[klaus]

If i'm not mistaken, It's a scene where Lev (is that the hero's name?) steps on that external heart his drug preserved brother has, killing him. He then takes a medallion (or something like that) from the corpse and exits the scene. Then the credits. But , like Vondoom, I've not playeed Priv2 for a long time, so I may be wrong.

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The WC Source Code Release Project needs you!
"This matter winds itself ever in new riddles.", Faramir - The Lord of The Rings
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Member of the LMG(Centaurian)

 

[Shane]

Some of us got into a discussion about Manaiac a month or two back, can't remember which post though. I recall one person arguing that the biggest change to Maniac occured when they brought Tom Wilson in, and in a way made him like Biff Tannen (from the Back to the Future movies) That definitely seemed to be the direction they sent him in in WCP. I think the core concept of Manaic is his continued rivalry with Blair. Manaic is one of the best pilots (from a kills and longevity POV) in Confed history, but Blair is always a little better. Maniac feels he never has gotten the respect he should have gotten because Blair was always there to overshadow him. I always assumed after SM1-SM2 he just got some really good therapy, which is what allowed him to fly again, because he was a basket case. I think part of his recovery from that was to put on even more bravado. It also was likely the reason he moved from combat to test piloting. I think one of the hint books discusses that in more detail, but I'm not sure. I agree with Vondoom that the WCIV version of Manaic was my favorite, I thought he had finally grown up, especially after the incident with Catscratch, but he still had enough attitude so he was interesting. I agree in WCP he started off as a bit of a bully, though he got better later in the game. Especially when he got the command he had so long wanted (though he had that to an extent with the WIld Eagles) and realized that it wasn't as great as he thought it would be.

As for Tolwyn, I pretty much again second what Vondoom said. I think the WC folks wanted to expand the universe some, maybe fill in some of the things that would set up WCIII, but not use major characters like Blair, Hobbes, Paladin, etc. Forstchen continued the WC tradition of borrowing ideas from WWII and repackaging them in WC. (Occaisionally beating you over the head with them just in case you didn't notice the similarities

) I disagree with Vondoom on the idea that Tolwyn seemed power hungry. I always saw him as interested in the preservation of humanity and honor, not necessarily in that order. Blair seemed to have it in his head that Tolwyn did nothing but order suicide missions, but the novels gave the impression that he was merely following orders from higher up. He wasn't happy with them all the time, but he usually followed them because that was what was required of him.

I think Fleet Action also provided, perhaps inadvertantly what caused Tolwyn to lose his mind, the Kilrahti push into Confed space that lead to the battle of earth. It was at that point he was thrust into power (since a good bit of Confed's Top Brass were killed by the Kilrathi ambasador, and then Duke Greco bought it on a cat supercarrier.) It was also at that point, I think, that he decided that humanity could not survive if it were being lead by the likes of Rodham and other elected officials. I doubt he started some of the BL projects (in fact it is hinted at, especially in Fleet Action, that there are projects he shouldn't know about), but he perhaps kept them alive after the Battle of Earth, hoping to find some way to use them. The Behemoth disaster though set him back some. I wish the novels that were supposed to follow False Colors are some day written, because it would be interesting to see if they flesh out his return to power a little more. I've always wondered if some of the Black Lance stuff is what got twisted into the rumor that was mentioned by Barbara Niles at the begining of WCIII about a secret plan to replant the seeds of humanity somewhere else.

As for the father son relationship between Tolwyn and Bear, I think part of that was becasue Tolwyn had lost his wife and children in the war and he didn't seem close to his family. Kevin he saw as a spoiled brat. Bear also really put himself on the line to do what was right, and I think Tolwyn found a kindred spirit in that. He saw Bear as the kind of officer Confed was going to need if it survived. I used to think Bear may have been involved in some way with Tolwyn's BL stuff (or one of his other projects), though False Colors changed my opinion on that.

The final Priv2 cut scene involves you landing on a very large ship and coming face to face with the head of the Kindred. You have found out shortly before this who you really are and why you were in the pod and why there are those who were trying to prevent you from finding out the truth. I think for wingman you have to make sure they jump out first, but it has alos been a couple years since I've played, so hopefully someone else can fill you in on this. I don't remember having this problem, though.

 

[Dralthi5]

Maniac actually insane? Could one or more of you go into detail about this?

What I'd like to see is a novel taking place after WC4, so we can get to see the reactions of Bear and Kevin after Tolwyn has fallen from grace. And, sure, I'd like to see more about the Bellisarius Group and all that.

Concerning Priv2. It's been a couple months since I've played, but the last scene I watched was on Hades, where Lev Arris and Christopher Walken interrogate David Warner and we finally learn the truth. I encountered Kronos' huge-ass ship, but I got stuck there. What do I do at this point (is it absolutely vital to rescue Shiela Nabakov?).

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If I'm locked on, there's no such thing as evasive action!

 

[Knight]

I'd like to comment on that remark about Maniac being a total prick in WCP. IIRC, he fell asleep in the briefing becuase he was hungover (a common occurence for me after a party the night before, ie. the promotion of all those Diamondbacks' party), he may have been prickish towards Casey, but if you remember what he said in the ICIS, about him knowing Iceman, and how Iceman whipped him into shape, and that he'd do the same for him, well, that pretty much gets to my point there. Also, on a better note, Maniac's maturity didn't dimish as much as you must think. I believe he was fairly grieved when he lost that wingman in the asteroids that you go to retrieve. If I wanted to call someone cold in WCP, it'd be Spyder, because he was just about the only one that really didn't flinch (other than Stiletto) when Hawk died. Oh, and kind of a counter point to my own point above, Maniac did act a bit cold when Dallas died, but he was just trying to impress his fans. Remember what Blair said to Casey after Casey went after Maniac. He's good at hiding his emotions behind a lot of hot air.

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Member of the LMG and hating it (Disgruntled Man)
Real heros wear SCBAs, not capes.--Me.

 

[Vondoom]

Don't think anyone said he was cold. And what I meant by maturity is him taking control of his own actions. In WC4, we see a Maniac towards the end that is very vunerable and I got the sense that he would have matured. But in Prophecy, he's acting as if he hadn't learned any of his lessons from WC4. He's still horribly reckless even as a WC. We did get to see him emotionally like we did in WC4 though, but it was him whining to a total plebe. Rookies rarely give 30 year vets advice on how to deal with stuff.

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There is no God but myself. No destiny but what I deem for me. I walk my path and no others, for I am free.

 

[Wedge009]

Dralthi: Recall Maniac in the Goddard campaign, he completely lost it - Hunter mentions him running around in his PJ's trying to get into a raptor, and he also suggests putting ESK-5 into their missiles to Blair. Though I think that may have been in the Firekka campaign. Regardless, from the start of the Secret Missions (and perhaps even before) Maniac belonged in a mental institute, and those are but two examples.

I think Maniac has advanced a bit from his "Biff" mode in WC3. I agree with others that he was probably his best in WC4. He was mostly there for comedy's sake - I absolutely loved the scene where he beat Vagabond, he may have "shoved it in" a bit much but I still thought it was a good laugh. Plus the scene where Blair tells him of his Confed 'promotion' among several others. But he did try offering 'advice' to Catscratch, and he did open up a bit to Blair before he 'defected' with Eisen.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

Maniac's real attitude was first touched when he was responsible for the death's of 16 people on a Drayman he accidently crippled and subsequently lost while escorting. He (to be fair, like many Tiger's Claw pilots did) actually went crazy during the tense Operation Thor's Hammer -- he was taken off the flight roster when the Claw returned, and only flew again at the end of the Firekka campaign because of pilot shortages. Following SM2 he was transferred to the special psych facilities onboard the TCS Austin. He eventually returned to combat, where he saved a strike fleet and became a hero once again. He spent the rest of the war switching betwen combat and test pilot tours.

In Prophecy I felt very much as if Maniac was definately putting on an act for the younger pilots -- runner up to Blair or not, Todd Marshall was a living legend. He may not have been a good Wing Commander (his position in WCP was Wing Commander, given the Squadron/Wing reversal bit... which is why it was new for him -- the Wild Eagles were a squadron, not a wing), but he clearly was capable of caring when it was necessary. Something Maniac in SO2 would never do.

(To Vondoom, I note... we really can't know *who* Maniac is 'whining' to -- since we saw everything through the POV of Casey. It's possible that Maniac confided in others, we just can't know... that said, all of his kindred spirits -- Blair and Hawk -- were killed. Casey's heritage probably represents Maniac's carefree youth...).

Unfortunately, neither of the planned post-WC4 novels will come to pass, as Andrew Keith has died. I personally find Tolwyn's words to Jason at the end of False Colors to be the perfect ending to the series, though...

In Privateer 2 you need to kill al of Kronos' escorts and get near the ship -- at which point the video ending will trigger. Note that there will be more 'video' missions after this... check your P2 Guide for a full list. (The main character's name is Lev Arris, for the person who was unsure, which is some sort of terrifying joke).

Wingmen should follow you around from takeoff until landing... you may need to wait a minute for them to appear after you. And make sure you buy a *reliable* one... some have a tendancy to give up.

Tolwyn has always been cold to Blair -- stemming from the incident in Wing Commander Academy where Blair refused to be decorated by Tolwyn. Although Tolwyn admitted he was wrong regarding the Tiger's Claw, he could never actually 'like' Blair again.

Tolwyn took a liking to Bondarevsky because he reminded him of his long-dead children. Tolwyn seemed parciularly impressed in Bear's innocence -- after losing his father and brother and fighing the Kilrathi for years, Bondarevsky could still mutiny rather than slaughter civilians.

I've always felt that Tolwyn lost his mind because he did *not* win the war. Tolwyn was elemental in the war effort from the very start in 2634... all the way to saving Earth at the very end. And yet at the very last minute his plan to end the war once and for all failed, and a former sub-ordinate (Taggart or Blair, take your pick) took the credit for beating the Kilrathi! Tolwyn replaced his long-lost family with a devotion to fighting the war... when it was over, he had nothing. (Regarding his feelings towards Rodham... remember that Tolwyn had *always* felt this way -- he went head to head with Senator More at his graduation party many years previous). You are correct in noticing that he did not start the Project... it had been going on for some 20 years, he simply found it and took over after the war.

According to the WC3 novel, the 'replanting seeds' rumor is a story older than Blair.

(And don't blame Forstchen for the WW2 thing... I mean, look at how WC3 ended -- WW2 in space was the rally cry for the entire series.)

 

[Shane]

I don't blame Forstchen for the WWII thing, and I don't even think it is a problem. I liked the way it was done for the most part. What amused (more than annoyed) me were the times when he really went out of his way to make sure that you got the comparison.

Maniac losing it in SM1 was a nice touch. I had forgotten about the drayman, though. Tied in nicely with the warning in Claw Marks about the downside of HS and FF missles. I liked the attention to detail with Maniac in those games. Things like the worsening bloodshot to his eyes and the way he couldn't seem to keep eye contact, or keep track of what he was saying. I especially remember him rambling on about the dreams he was having.

I think LOAF is right about the shock to Tolwyn that came with the loss of Behemoth, the betrayl of Hobbes (whom in WC2 and the add-ons he seemed to have respected and trusted) and then Taggart and Blair winning the war. I still think though, he was already lost before that point. He could forgive the government and the brass for the mistakes at the begining of the war, I think. However, those that lead to the Battle of Earth and the destruction left in its wake were unforgiveable. From that point, I feel, he was committed that he would do everything in his power to prevent that from happening again.

 

[WildWeasel]

Shane, good point about the possible Black Lance connection. I have a question of my own to raise. In Wing Commander II, we see Jazz doing some killing. I think we also see some gun use in The Price of Freedom. (I can't be sure about that last one. It's been a very, very long time.) What kind of weapons do you think they're using in the Wing Commander universe?

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Put that in your pipe and smoke it!

[This message has been edited by WildWeasel (edited October 20, 2000).]

 

[Shane]

LOAF can probably give you a complete answer. I do know in the novels (particulalry End Run) they talked about a mass driver flechette (if I recall correctly), which sounded similar to a shoutgun, but with bigger shot. Also I recall some laser rifles for sniper work and I think some kind of mini neutron gun.

The guns in WCIV were kind of odd looking. They seemed to shoot some kind of projectile that then sent a charge through the person. I know there is some difference between ship board and ground weapons. Mainly because you don't want something that would cause a hull breach.

Jazz's gun sounded (if I recall correctly) sort of like a short slightly staccato buzz saw. I can't think of how else to describe it. Based on the blood, I would guess it was a projectile weapon, since beam weapons (at least in other parts of the sci-fi world) usually cauterize the wound and cause very little bleeding.

 

[Vondoom]

Fletchette guns would be ideal on board a ship since they generally have low mass. The high speeds allow them do shred flesh while the low mass prevents them from piercing a hull. In WC4, i would say they were using something like a tazer, exept the charge would have to be held in a capacitor on the projectile. When it hits the target, it fries them. But no danger of hull ruptures also. Hard to tell though, LOAF will probably have some specifics from the books, I can't remember what the marines used.

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There is no God but myself. No destiny but what I deem for me. I walk my path and no others, for I am free.

 

[Dralthi5]

Man, I really need to download those Secret Missions ( that is, if I can get past that damned error message!

). Thanks, guys, for all your answers.

If you ask me, the weapons in the comm-relay station in Orestes scene looked to fire lasers or some sort of beam, but on the Axius base they looked to be firing almost some sort of bullet.

I noticed that Maniac also had bloodshot eyes in SO2. And that weird skull earring.

Yeah, that's a bummer that Andrew Keith passed away. I wonder, though, if sometime in the future, if WC is revived by Origin, we'll see some more WC books. Maybe by Forstchen, since he's written or co-written a lot of them. Hmmm... Hell, I'd be content with Pilgrim Truth being released, really!

I'll have to go and try Priv2 again, this time I'll save Shiela Nabakov.

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If I'm locked on, there's no such thing as evasive action!

 

[Knight]

According to the VDUs in WCP, the marines there are using laser rifles. And now that I think about it, we see it fire in the last cutscene with Blair and the bug.

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Member of the LMG and hating it (Disgruntled Man)
Real heros wear SCBAs, not capes.--Me.

 

[Shane]

I don't remember it firing. I recall Blair looking up, the creture dropping and then the camera cutting away. Hence the whole debate over a topic I have no desire to see debated

Dralthi 5: Which error message? I did notice Stinger is back at Tech Support. Yeah Todd Still had the Bloodshot eyes in SO2, but they started to show up in SM1. Perhaps I'm imagining it, but it did seem they got worse. Plus, in those games they had those really big eyes to begin with so it was really noticeable. The Secret Missions are cool and had a couple of the toughest WC missions, though they did not have a branching element to them. At least not like WC1. Once you got on the losing path anywhere in the game, you couldn't recover.

 

[Dralthi5]

I dunno, just some weird error message. I'll drop by tech support later.

Yeah, I was going to mention that in another thread where the gun topic was brought up, the whole thing about the laser guns in Prophecy.


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If I'm locked on, there's no such thing as evasive action!

 

[Quarto]

A few more notes about Maniac.
It's not really his fault that he went psycho in SM1. Note that he wasn't the only one (there were a few others that didn't just talk about going kamikaze - they did go kamikaze). Operation Thor's Hammer was incredibly tense - the 'Claw was alone in Kilrathi space, chasing a Kilrathi strike force and an unknown super-weapon. Doesn't sound like a party, does it? Morale was crashing through the floor until Blair and Paladin succeeded in taking out the fuel depot (in Vigrid? I can't remember). Thus, you can't blame Maniac for feeling a bit crazy. Then, as LOAF, mentioned, there was the Drayman incident at the end of WC1. Now, my theory, if anybody cares to listen (

), is that this incident forced Maniac - for the first time in his life - to doubt his own abilities. In other failed missions, there was always somebody to blame, but here he was the cause of the failure, and he couldn't deny it. Ironically, this self-doubt saved his life in SM1. Instead of just crashing into the first Fralthi that came along, he felt that he needed to redeem himself, and show once and for all that he was the best. So, when he started cracking under the stress, he didn't decide to simply go kamikaze, but instead to go kamikaze into the biggest ship there was out there. Fortunately, he didn't get the chance.
Now, SM2. Here he was, happily trying to recover his balance, when suddenly the 'Claw found itself surrounded by the whole damned Kilrathi fleet. Please note that the wondering-the-flight-deck-in-pyjamas incident wasn't really a sign of delusion. Heck, if it was Blair down there in pyjamas, people would be talking about how patriotic he is, wanting to fight even though he's sick. So why is it that we assume that Maniac did it just because he was crazy? The 'Claw was in severe trouble. He wanted to help out (once again, feeling the need to redeem himself).
Unfortunately, his recovery was further impaired by several other factors - namely, Hunter. I don't know what a slime toad is, but apparently it's something Maniac is scared of - he spent two hours on the ceiling after he found one in his bed. Then, there was that incident when Maniac tried to self-destruct his ship (was this in SM1 or 2?). Why? Because Hunter had rigged Maniac's systems to display several hundred red blips on the radar. Hey, who's crazy here?

Anyway, I guess that that intense treatment between SM2 and WC2 helped Maniac quite a bit, and taking down two Ralatha single-handedly sure helped to restore his ego. In SO2, he seemed quite normal (as far as Maniac goes

) in fact, he seemed to be a mix of Academy Maniac and WC1 Maniac, with a bit of Movie Maniac around the edges.

So why, you may ask, did he act like he did in WC3? Well, the answer (at least according to me) lies in the circumstances. SM1 - a desperate 'Claw-against-all mission into Kilrathi space. WC3 - a desperate Victory-against-all-missi... say, is there an echo in here?

It's the stress, people!

Maniac acted the way he did in WC3 because of the stress. Certainly, the Victory's position wasn't too wonderful in those months, especially when they moved in on Kilrah itself. And when he lashed out at Blair about Hobbes - hey, who could blame him? As far as the crew of the Victory were concerned, Cobra (and Vaquero, according to the novel) died because of Blair's naivette.

What about WC4? In theory, he should have been even more psycho, since once again it was one of those against-all situations. However, his ego had been building up nicely over the last few years (he flew the most dangerous mission of the war and survived - more importantly, because of his supreme escorting abilities, Blair completed his mission. Thus, Maniac was obviously instrumental in winning the war

). And furthermore, the Intrepid's situation didn't ever seem that desperate - but it had been before the defection ("Bridge used to be up there"), and it had the potential to get even worse ("The side we chose to be on..."). I guess Maniac really must have been maturing, since for the first time, it occured to him that other people might have it worse off than him.

Whoa, look at the length of this post

. I'll end this right here. Please, feel free to disagree and point out all the problems with my theory. But to conclude, it seems to me that Maniac's character changes throughout the series were consistent - indeed, surprisingly consistent.

 

[No Regret]

*applauds*

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The time is near.
There are still quite a few days remaining.

Hail to the king, baby.
-Ash, housewares

I don't care for fame, power or money...
I just want to FIGHT!
-Sanosuke Sagara

 

[Shane]

Well done, Quarto. Except I think if anyone was pulled off the flight line because of psych problems (even Angel, Bossman, etc.) people would talk if they were down there in their P.J.'s trying to get in a fighter. Maniac did get a lot of crap it sounds like, but I think some of it he got because of his attitude. He does make me think in WCP of the stereotypical American High School Senior, who gives the Freshman crap, because that's what he got when he was a Freshman. He's doing it for Casey's own good, it is a rite of passage. Thing is, I don't see Iceman doing that kind of crap. If Casey was Hunter's kid...

Iceman seemed above pranks, though I imagine he may have been short with the younger pilots. It's kinda hard to say, because the way he was in the WC1-SM2 series he was a man of few words, and his character never got much depth. In some ways, I see Hawk similar to Iceman, though his charcter is more fleshed out.

I think Hunter was, I'm not sure jealuous is the right word, wanting to make sure he had sole claim to being the wild boy on the Claw. He didn't want Maniac to take his place as the one living closest to the edge. That's why some of Hunter's pranks were almost spiteful in nature. That may be why I didn't like Fredom Flight that much. I didn't like Hunter that much.

Maniac also gets the Rodney Dangerfield treatment, no respect. I recall from WC2 they were talking about his hero status after destroying two Ralatha. Someone was saying he didn't really destroy them they kinda destroyed each other, and he was in the right place at the right time. I do think he has a point about helping escort Blair to Kilrah, but in all honesty, I know the pilot of the Enola Gay was Paul Tibbets (he's from my hometown), but I'd have to look up to see who else flew over Hiroshima that day. I think most WWII veterans and people aive at the time knew Tibbets, but very few of the others. And Tibbets, according to my father and uncles, was know simply as the Man Who Won The War. There wasn't any Man Who Helped The Man Who Won The War.

As an aside, I know LOAF is or was very interested in WWII, if you see this post LOAF, Bob Greene has a new book out called Duty : A Father, His Son, and the Man Who Won the War , which is very good. Not so much for a blow by blow of the war, or even the Hiroshima mission, though it does discuss that, but more the way that generation dealt with WWII. It does get a tad sentimental at times, but it is still a good read.

Maniac actually seemd to become less of a jerk as the pressure built in WCP, though.