8 jumps to kilrah

M

Madman

Vice Admiral
If you have the map that came with prophecy, (or the downloaded one from the aces, then check the distance from kilrah to Sol, only 8 jumps, however both civilisations have explored further in the other directions, so it took 1000 years (WC1 demo) to travel 8 jumps in one direction, and about 20 in the other
why?
 
I brought this up before. If you'll note on said map, it says that it is not to scale. Too, there are multiple jumps nodes within a system, one jump line on the map does not equate to one jump point in 'reality'. In the war, the main line from Sol to Kilrah thru Vega was probably well guarded by both sides, so the war moved to surrounding sectors, such as Epsilon and Enigma.
 
Well, by that reasoning MadMan, it wouldn't have taken the Allies five years to reach Berlin. I mean, it's only a few hundred miles from London to Berlin, right? :)

I've been under the impression that a lot of exploration work occured during and because of the War. Prior to the Kilrathi encounter, exploration was probably quite slow. But then... well, Gemini, for example, was "settled" over a dramatically short period, simply because Confed couldn't afford to leave it unguarded.

As for Vega, that's where most of the War took place. As far as either side was concerned, it was like pounding one's head against a brick wall which happens to be only three metres in length... better to go around :).
 
We should also throw in the mix the statement in Voices of War that Kilrah is "a year-and-a-half's travel from the Terran base of Earth".
 
The fact that the two civilizations haven't encountered eachother earlier is because Confeds first JD was installed on the Haile Selassie and tested on 2588.315 (note that the Pilgrims had it already for about a century) so only thirty years have passed after Confed started it's expansion further into space when they encountered.

Nemesis, the 1,5 years that it suposedly takes to travel from Earth to Kilrah is either a mistake on OSI's part, or it's tied to some other form of travel.


And before anyone asks, no Confed didn't move out of Sol in 2588 and colonized hundreds of systems in such a short time. Colonists used the Hopper drives before the JD, but not on a large scale, because they have shorter range and are more dangerous.


[Edited by Earthworm on 11-28-2000 at 18:31]
 
It can also take a large amount of effort to find a jump point. One of the points may have been concealed, in an odd space, or just have taken a long time to find. When you've got huge expanses of space to explore, why waste too much time looking for a jump point that you don't even know exists.

TC
 
Good point TC. And it isn't hard to imagine how much harder it would be to locate a jump point when the JD was fairly new.
 
Earthworm: The statement in the "Armada" game manual is unqualified (and is apparently dated in or around 2664). The "other form of travel" you posit would therefore have to be common or standard enough to be readily assumed and understood by anyone in the WC universe reading the statement. Are you suggesting something like a commercial as opposed to a military measure of interstellar travel? Do the games or other WC sources support an argument that the travel time of a representative civilian ship is many months slower than, say, a corvette or destroyer?

As for the possibility that the statement is a mistake, that's a heavy burden of proof to carry. The time period is written out, not numbered, and so is highly unlikely to be a typo. If you're simply saying that the statement's inconsistent with other WC sources, that's not good enough. The statement's in a game manual; it's canon on its face. (And as text, it trumps the graphics of the "Prophecy" map for the obvious reasons.) Besides, if we're free to ignore a given "fact" simply because it conflicts with another "fact", then no WC source could ever be authoritative since it would always be too easy to overrule and essentially rewrite at will.
 
Even so, the pre war era would have left loads of time to find the jump points, after all it doesnt take too long to find the bus stops in an area, so why jump points.

Maybe i missed some relevan information from the books as i don't have them but still it cant take 1000 years. by the way that 1.5 years must be wrong as it doesnt take 1.5 years in WC3
 
Scale your bus stop analogy to the size of a galaxy, take into account that there are probably much fewer jump points per area than bus stops and you'll realise how hard it is to find them ...
 
I don't know, Madman, maybe it's WC3 et seq. that's wrong because "Armada" says it takes a year-and-a-half. How should we judge a conflict between or among the games? A pretty question.

However, I certainly agree with you that there's a more important and overarching issue at stake. The pre-War history does suggest that Terran/Kilrathi space is difficult and time-consuming to explore, while some of the games portray it as easy and oh-so-quick to traverse. From without (the fiction writer's province), the conflict is easy to explain--to concoct a concise general history, one must extend years into decades into centuries using a limited number of story lines; but to give a detailed account of the turning-points of that history, in particular the decisive battles of a war involving specific places and people spread over interstellar space, the shorter the time it takes to travel from Points A to B, the more exciting the drama and action.

Our problem, though, is to explain the conflict from within. For myself, I've wondered whether a computer simulation based on the "background facts" implied solely by the games would, among the possible scenarios, successfully spit out a thirty-five year war. I have my doubts, in part due to the liberal "accessibility" the games require for the applicable regions of space.

Still, I'm not to the point where I think we have no choice but to make a choice between a cumbersome vs. a facile WC universe. Some good suggestions to help harmonize the basic conflict have already been made, and I'm sure we can come up with others. As for the "Armada" statement itself, Earthworm's suggestion of a different standard of travel is a very interesting one. Alternatively, "something" could have happened between 2664 (the time of the statement) and 2669 (the time of WC3) that "opened up" the space.
 
Wasn't there a jump point found in wc3 that was unknow??
If there was then both facts are correct in there respective time periods.
 
Originally posted by Nemesis
Are you suggesting something like a commercial as opposed to a military measure of interstellar travel?
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I'm not suggesting anything. Mearly implying that since it doesn't take 1.5 years to get to Kilrah, if you use the JD, it probably refers to something else entirely.


The statement's in a game manual; it's canon on its face. (And as text, it trumps the graphics of the "Prophecy" map for the obvious reasons.)
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Many of the novels, while they don't officialy give the exact time it takes to travel from Earth to Kilrah, it takes the Hakaga class carrier from FA about a month to get from Hari space to Earth. The time it takes the Tarawa to get to Kilrah is much shorter in ER. But if someone wants to argue that manuals are more canon than novels, it takes the Midways a relativel short time to get to Kilrah from H'rekkha. That system has a jump point that leads to Nephele, and as demonstrated in WC4, it takes a very short time to travel from Nephele to Earth.

And Besides, if we're free to ignore a given "fact" simply because it conflicts with another "fact", then no WC source could ever be authoritative since it would always be too easy to overrule and essentially rewrite at will.
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If one source is contradicted by another, I always assume that eiteher the majority takes the first place, or the thing that came out first.

[Edited by Earthworm on 11-29-2000 at 17:55]
 
Originally posted by Dark Tower
Wasn't there a jump point found in wc3 that was unknow??
If there was then both facts are correct in there respective time periods.
Click to expand...
No, if you're talking about the rout to Kilrah through the Freya system, Confed knew about it already, but they didn't let the info slip, so the Kilrathi were surprised.

Also, in FA it can take hours/days to find a single jump point, where Paladin and Hunter use very new, state of the art equipment. And you never know where the jump point may lead, so you have to jump through and relay on dumb luck that you'll be able to come back.

Also, while there's nothing to support this, the time of travel form the Armada manual, could talk about a Hopper Drive, one of the earlier models, not the one from Pilgrim Stars. However, since I don't have VoW I can't even check what it exactly says.
 
Originally posted by Earthworm
However, since I don't have VoW I can't even check what it exactly says.
Click to expand...

The text in Voices of War is only one page long; I'll quote the relevant portion--

"Introduction to the Terran-Kilrathi Conflict

The home planet of the Kilrah culture is nestled within the Orion arm of the Milky Way; a year-and-a-half's travel from the Terran base of Earth. The Kilrathi have possessed interstellar flight knowledge for the last century, using that development to conquer hundreds of planets in outlying sectors. . . . The Terrans, likewise, had befriended several nearby worlds and quickly assimilated them into the Confederation. . . . Now after almost thirty years of continuous war, the Terrans and Kilrathi have arrived at a stalemate, with the Kilrathi gaining slight advantages in sectors with tactical jump locations. . . ."
 
"Introduction to the Terran-Kilrathi Conflict

The home planet of the Kilrah culture is nestled within the Orion arm of the Milky Way; a year-and-a-half's travel from the Terran base of Earth. The Kilrathi have possessed interstellar flight knowledge for the last century, using that development to conquer hundreds of planets in outlying sectors. Though they encountered several other life forms, none could compete with their scientific knowledge – until they ran into a Terran exploration party in 2634.

The Terrans, likewise, had befriended several nearby worlds and quickly assimilated them into the Confederation. All were advanced, but none possessed technology that could rival that of Earth's. Since the Terrans and Kilrathi had experienced wars between their own people in past centuries, the tools for interstellar war were already in place by the time the two races crossed paths in 2629. With a new outlet for frustration and hatred, each side rapidly unified after the first few encounters"

a five year change in first contact in two paragraphs, see OSI are not always right.

If you want VOW Earthworm, there was a post on the CIC not long ago about a downloadable version of the manuals, i cant remember where it is, but if you want it check there maybe in the archives. (Better still buy Armada, its worth it for the multiplayer.)
 
Your interpretation of the two dates might be right, Madman. (They do leave a bit to the imagination.) If so, though, it's hard to see one or the other as anything but a typo, and so unintentional. (By contrast, it's hard to see "a year-and-a-half's travel" as anything other than an intentional assertion, which leaves us where we started.)

In general, I think it's better to try to harmonize a conflict in the first instance rather than simply choose to embrace one "fact" at the expense of another. (Ah yes, the joys of hermeneutics.)

In this regard, nothing in the express wording of the "Introduction" requires us to interpret either date as meaning "first contact". (In particular, the one reference to the races' competing "scientific knowledge" hardly fits in with the account of the destruction of the Iason, which was the first contact). Further, the timelines in both Voices of War ("Sun Year 5112" and "2634") and Victory Streak ("2630-2634" and "2634.186") refer to the fact of several encounters in between the first one in early 2629 and the one in 2634, recounted in the WC3 manual, that led Confed to declare war. We can therefore easily interpret the two dates as being consistent.
 
but both seem to be used as dates for first contact and the evidenec against the year and a half is enorumous, both in books, WC3 gameplay and various others, its simply not possible.
 
It's time for LOAF to enter the fray.

The 1.5 year time is probably the 'declassifiec' amount of time. Remember that quick routes to Kilrah (which the Kilrathi already knew about, mind you) were *known* by the Confed, but they were kept secret -- to allow for the surprise of Operation Backlash and the second battle of Kilrah.

2629 is the 'official' discovery of the Kilrathi -- the Iason incident. There were encounters with the Kats earlier, but none of them are officially recognized by the Confederation. 2634 is the year the war actually started.
 
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