Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
I've always found it a bit odd that we leap to the conclusion that factions in the Wing Commander universe are necessarily *good* simply because they oppose something *bad*.
Big gaping hole in the argument, as proven by the fact that you had to add a qualifying statement (italicised) to make it work. The Retros could add a similar qualifier - they've never condemned the use of technology for the sole purpose of "protecting" humanity from the "evils" of technology. Sounds stupid and illogical, but so does never condemning widespread destruction of lives for the sole purpose of protecting lives.Originally posted by Penguin
My take:
The Retros are hypocrites because they use technology, even though they officially condemn it.
Confed isn't a hypocrite because it never condemned the widespread destruction of lives and property for the sole purpose of protecting the Confederation.
Originally posted by Nemesis
As for the destruction of Kilrah, I’m not sure the expression fits very well. It strikes me as a gross misstatement and/or understatement to say that we destroyed Kilrah because the Kilrathi tried to destroy Earth (and did effectively destroy or heavily damage some of the other worlds), or simply because we wanted to prevent the Kilrathi from doing so in the future.
I liked one particular Retro... but I stopped liking him after I realised that the bastard wouldn't give me my gun back .Originally posted by Nep Parth
I never liked the Retros, personally. They annoyed the hell out of me, shot at me without provocation, and I could never be friends with them. Plus their ships were moderately fast...not good for a merchant like me.
Absolutely right . However, most people seem to identify with Blair more than with Burrows or Arris, so...Quarto, the Confederation isn't the same as the human race, and vice versa. As a privateer, someone CAN criticize the Retros for hypocrisy. Privateers hold little but profit as sacred, so how are they hypocrites?
They claim to hate technology, but are found using it all over Priv and RF. not only that, but they make deals to obtain Kilrathi technology. That's their hypocrisy.
Originally posted by Nemesis
I agree with Quarto on this point. It’s one thing to charge a person with hypocrisy (for example, an adulterer), but quite another so to judge a group and its belief system. That’s just weak, for any “non-believer” almost always sees contradictions in the faith and actions of the “believers”, and being so ignorant or disdainful is inclined to stack the deck in his favor. Consider Burrows’ take on the Retros from the game manual: “. . . those bark-eating, anti-urban, anti-stellar, neo-pagan, hypocritical, knowledge-destroying fanatics.” Even if he hadn’t used the word “hypocritical”, it’s a foregone conclusion at this point.
But whatever judgements we can fairly make about the Retros, what is the sense in charging them with hypocrisy? Given their extreme views, how could they possibly not use the technology of a space-faring culture to oppose that culture? To charge them with hypocrisy under these circumstances only begs the question. What is it we would have them do to “satisfy” our objection? Renounce their crusade against technology by any chance? In other words, end their “hypocrisy” (as we see it) in the one instance by becoming even more “hypocritical” (as they would see it) in the other?
Now that’s hypocrisy!
don't forget the intellectualsOriginally posted by Bandit LOAF
Ehh, this entire line of thought is silly. I think it's pretty clear to all involved that the Church of Man exists in the game solely as a joke regarding their own hypocracy. Saying "Oh, but it can be the opposite of what they intended and I'll rant about that ceaselessly for no reason!" is the reason nobody really likes pseudo-intellectuals.
Originally posted by Battler Hawke
don't forget the intellectuals
And if you do, don't play leapfrog with him...Originally posted by Bandit LOAF
You're more likely to run into a unicorn. <G>
Ehh, this entire line of thought is silly. I think it's pretty clear to all involved that the Church of Man exists in the game solely as a joke regarding their own hypocracy. Saying "Oh, but it can be the opposite of what they intended and I'll rant about that ceaselessly for no reason!" is the reason nobody really likes pseudo-intellectuals.
Well, since "faith" is believing somehting in spite of everything else (including the facts), it's pretty apparent that "faith" (also called blind faith) is a bad thing. Those with the where-with-all to question all that's around them tend to not get caught up in the mass of contradictions other people call "faith" and therefore don't have to ignore them (the contradictions) and are free to point them out. It's _hardly_ "weak".
You also ask what sense there is in charging the retros with hypocrisy.
I'd have to ask what sense there is in debating the political views of a fictional group of people in the first place.
I would have to think that if they were truly so against technology, they would have reasons for it, and would not act like Catholics (the inquisition anyone?, or the destruction of priceless art in greece? or the holy wars?, or how about the inquisition-like behavior of the spanish in south america? 'nuff said), but instead would follow more of Ghandi method.
exactly. the evidence is quite concrete and unarguable.
Originally posted by Quarto
Er, DetailedTarget, doesn't it strike you as silly that you repeat in every post that you're worried this will turn into a religious discussion... but then, later in your post you always insist there's something wrong with the Western religions?
I'm not going to either agree or disagree with your point of view, but I'm pretty sure that it's statements like that that always start up religious discussions.
Originally posted by DetailedTarget
You try to back it up by saying that we have to trust our teachers, but, the truth is, we don't.
History is always written "officially" by the victor. Case in point, how often have you heard this phrase - "How the west was won"?
As for religion, well, good bad or indifferent, religion is and always has been used as a mean to control people. Not all religions obviously, but many, if not most, and certainly the western ones. That, combined with the fact that they all seem to be interested in converting people, even through the use of torture if need be, _and_ the contradictions that I find in the various ones. Then you add the contradictions with the physical world, and people who desire proof are forced to look elsewhere.
As for religion, well, good bad or indifferent, religion is and always has been used as a mean to control people. Not all religions obviously, but many, if not most, and certainly the western ones. That, combined with the fact that they all seem to be interested in converting people, even through the use of torture if need be, _and_ the contradictions that I find in the various ones. Then you add the contradictions with the physical world, and people who desire proof are forced to look elsewhere.