Who's in charge? - Kilrathi military and clans

@capi: Ok, if they rest under the tree that makes more sense.
I'll read through your language thread and maybe ask a few questions then. Especially about the rules for combining word parts, I don't really see the structure yet.

As for the culture: Yeah, I think that comes close. Actually you don't even have to take only Japan as the example, having concubines and visiting brothels although being married was fairly common during the centuries in several cultures.

@Ijuin: I like that explanation! Kilrathi nobles may be allowed to have only one wife (of course another noble of about equal social rank, to keep the blood lines clean and also for having a straight line in the dynasty), but to have several "backup wives", in some kind of morganatic marriage (meaning they have a lower social rank, but most likely still high nobles, just like you said). The rest of them are lower nobles, just concubines.


Here's the next one: Mating out of season is something mentioned in a negative context. Does that apply to everyone? Or maybe only for nobles? Obviously mating as much as possible is important because you need lots of warriors to fight a war. Maybe mating seasons existed long ago and it is still custom for nobles, but not for commoners? What do you think?
 
Think cats on Earth - females have periods of estrus, during which time mating has the potential to produce offspring. Mating when a female is not in estrus would produce no offspring. You don't have to go too far back in Terran cultures to find that sex for procreation is considered a virtue, while sex merely for pleasure is a vice (and a big one at that). Probably something similar going on there.
 
I don't think the mating season is meant in that sense. Although I'm not sure. For me it sounds as if it is not dependent on individual females, but rather meant globally. Some animals only mate at a certain time of the year. That's because it is important that children are born in a time where there is enough food, like spring for example. Mating out of season means your children will likely die.
EDIT: Especially in a nomadic culture or species, which the Kilrathi were.

Humans don't have mating seasons because children can survive regardless of the season they're born in.
The same is true for Kilrathi, obviously, since they are technologically advanced. But maybe they kept the custom of mating seasons for cultural reasons. Nobles can afford to do that, since the mortality rate of their children is much lower. Commoners can't because their children might die any time.
 
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If I may turn back to the original topic, I just remembered (and then re-read) a passage from the Confederation Handbook. The entry on the Snakeir reads "All known Snakeirs have borne the marlkings of the imperial hous, suggesting that the individual clans and worlds of the Empire do not sponsor Snakeir production, but that the Emperor has personally commissioned these ships for use in the Confed conflict".

And the entry on the Sivar reads "Sivar-class warships have been observed with the markings of all the major noble clans, but increasingly they're being disproportionately seen with imperial clan markings, indicating the ongoing centralization of strategic forces under the Emperor himself."

I think that pretty confirms that ships (also) belong /belonged to Clans . But it may also explain why there are mixed crews: when Joor'rad centralized his power (as also seen in WCATV when the clans should swear allegiance to the Emperor/Thrakhath himself during the Sivar-Eshrad ceremony on Dolos), ships were no longer clan ships but imperial ships. Of course, they had to be crewed and thus came mixed crews. I think there's also a passage on that in Fleet Action when they talk about who crews the Hakaga fighter complement.
 
Another interesting quote, and a good contribution to the topic. Thanks, Mekt-Hakkikt!

So let's look at the topic of clan insignia on ships.
In the games we mainly see two sorts of insignia on Kilrathi ships IIRC. In WC1 we have some sort of generic logo, on all ships. We can't see it clearly in game because of the bad resolution, but we can see it on the WC1 box art, on the Dralthi's wing.
https://cdn.wcnews.com/newestshots/full/arenaships-dralthi1.png
It looks like a cat head and two additional glyphs. And right above it there is something black that could either be part of the logo, or it could be written text in yet another Kilrathi script. Also note it's not the same on both wings but a bit different.
My theory is that this is neither the Kilrathi Empire's logo nor a clan logo, but a deliberately aggressive-looking pictogram of a Kilrathi along with some taunts. We know the Kilrathi love psychological warfare. But it could also be some Vega sector fleet insignia. I prefer the other variant.

In WC3 all ships seem to have the Logo on them which most people considered to be "the Kilrathi logo" because it was the only one we knew and it was on all ships. But IIRC at some point it was explained that this is actually the logo of the Kiranka clan, and not the Imperial one, which can be seen here: https://www.wcnews.com/wcpedia/Empire_of_Kilrah

Newer Kilrathi ships (WCP) bear the logo of the Kilrathi Assembly of Clans (my forums avatar).

All of the games have one problem though, which we should not forget: Texture space. I guess the main reason why we don't see different logos is that the Origin guys just didn't include them for simplicity's sake or because that logo was intended to be the Imperial logo. This is one possibility. Also that logo is everywhere. In the Emperor's throne room it is seen above the throne, on the ground, and even on the door.
The other possibility is that all Imperial ships bear the logo of the ruling clan. The quoted centralization went on, and all ships in that time bear the Kiranka logo. That would also explain why it is everywhere. The Kiranka want it that way to show the other clans they are the rulers, they are the Imperial clan and they are here to stay. That would also explain why that logo isn't seen anymore in WCP. The Kiranka lost their reputation because they lost the war.


So here's my take on the logos in short:
- Kilrathi ships and warriors bear the logo of the clan they belong to on their hull.
- Ships in bigger fleets or in operations that are either led directly by the high command or are of unusual importance bear the logo of the ruling Kiranka clan.
- After the war Kilrathi ships either display their clan's logo or the logo of the Assembly of Clans.
 
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Mekt-Hakkikt said:
If I may turn back to the original topic, I just remembered (and then re-read) a passage from the Confederation Handbook. The entry on the Snakeir reads "All known Snakeirs have borne the marlkings of the imperial hous, suggesting that the individual clans and worlds of the Empire do not sponsor Snakeir production, but that the Emperor has personally commissioned these ships for use in the Confed conflict".

And the entry on the Sivar reads "Sivar-class warships have been observed with the markings of all the major noble clans, but increasingly they're being disproportionately seen with imperial clan markings, indicating the ongoing centralization of strategic forces under the Emperor himself."

I think that pretty confirms that ships (also) belong /belonged to Clans . But it may also explain why there are mixed crews: when Joor'rad centralized his power (as also seen in WCATV when the clans should swear allegiance to the Emperor/Thrakhath himself during the Sivar-Eshrad ceremony on Dolos), ships were no longer clan ships but imperial ships. Of course, they had to be crewed and thus came mixed crews. I think there's also a passage on that in Fleet Action when they talk about who crews the Hakaga fighter complement.
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Ah! That's really good stuff. When I first raised this issue in that other thread, I did think that something like this had been mentioned in one of the sources, but then I couldn't recall anything particular, so I figured I must have imagined it :).

I think in regards to the mixed crews, they would be a very natural thing to do, in order to prevent the clans from retaining an unofficial hold over a given ship. If a ship's crew answers directly to the Emperor, but the whole crew happens to be from one clan, they ultimately they would be loyal to the clan in the even of any kind of civil war. With a mixed crew, members from the different clans will actually control each other.
 
Quarto said:
I think in regards to the mixed crews, they would be a very natural thing to do, in order to prevent the clans from retaining an unofficial hold over a given ship. If a ship's crew answers directly to the Emperor, but the whole crew happens to be from one clan, they ultimately they would be loyal to the clan in the even of any kind of civil war. With a mixed crew, members from the different clans will actually control each other.
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And Fleet Action tells a bit about this in the prologue, I think? It might be one of the later Imperial Court scenes as well. How the lower clans align with the more noble clans in the struggle for power. Just because they are at war with the Confederation doesn't mean they aren't still maneuvering for their own power positions later.
 
The "mixing crews in Imperial units in order to keep the unit from having loyalty to a home clan above their loyalty to the Empire" approach makes perfect sense--it's exactly how the US Army has been organized since the end of the American Civil War. Before said war, each Regiment was from this or that particular state (so for example you would have the 6th Massachusetts Cavalry or the 4th Virginia Artillery). This resulted in the majority of regiments siding with their states when secession happened, since their loyalty to their home state superseded their loyalty to the Union, which gave the Confederacy a ready-made army.
 
Rolling back a bit to the original topic, one thing I always found interesting is the Home Fleet/First Fleet of the Claw...it's supposed to be filled with the best of the best and yet it sounds like it rarely sees action. It's sortie to Vukar Tag was done only after some tough discussions. The fear of leaving Kilrah undefended was clearly unsettling to some. But why keep your best pilots, in a carrier war, defending home plate when they could be the tip of the spear?
 
Ever hear of the battleship Yamato? The Japanese did the exact same thing in World War II - their brightest, best officers were sent to serve aboard Yamato, the most powerful battleship ever built by any country ever - and the ship was deemed to valuable to sortie once the war turned against them. So it sat in harbor most of the time, with the brightest and best aboard, until the end, when they sent it off as a kamikaze.

Yeah, the Japanese found out that keeping the best and brightest closest to home was ultimately a dumb idea. Probably a fact that was not lost on Dr. Fortschen. My humble opinion.
 
capi3101 said:
Ever hear of the battleship Yamato? The Japanese did the exact same thing in World War II - their brightest, best officers were sent to serve aboard Yamato, the most powerful battleship ever built by any country ever - and the ship was deemed to valuable to sortie once the war turned against them. So it sat in harbor most of the time, with the brightest and best aboard, until the end, when they sent it off as a kamikaze.

Yeah, the Japanese found out that keeping the best and brightest closest to home was ultimately a dumb idea. Probably a fact that was not lost on Dr. Fortschen. My humble opinion.
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I have, except it wasn't entirely populated by their best and brightest. The Japanese had a very rigid system of promotions and it wasn't always geared towards the person's specialty. (that's why Nagumo and not the more carrier-centric Ozawa became Commander of Kido Butai in 1941...I think it was a week seniority separating them IIRC)

The Yamato was being saved for the "decisive battle" (Kantai Kessen) that was supposed to occur somewhere between Japan and the Philippines. Their whole war plan was based on the premise of quickly conquering the resources areas and outer defense perimeter islands and then waiting for the US to come at them. They were going to make the entire crossing of the Pacific a death sail for the US Fleet before finishing it off with Yamato, Musashi, Nagato, Mutsu, etc. Yamato earned the nickname "Hotel Yamato" because it did spend the war waiting for the battle that never came.

With the First Fleet of the Claw, do we know it's being held for such a purpose? (I can't recall if AS mentions the 1st was going to sortie on the drive to Earth or if it was going to play a role at all)

I can't recall if the Hakagas are the "First Fleet" since the loss at Vukar Tag. I recall they had to strip basically every carrier in the fleet in order to have full complements for the five active Hakagas.

I'm wondering if it's purpose is to just sit pretty and showcase Joor'rad's power? (or his protection from usurpers)

It's one thing to save your best ships for the decisive battle, quite another to let them sit as a sign to others of your power.
 
Interesting theories on the First Fleet of the Claw, I agree it could be something like that.

Anyway, here's another, which can be used additionally to what you said:
The First Fleet of the Claw is reserved for the highest leader there is. If he goes to battle, they do. Since the highest leader is the Emperor the fleet is where the Emperor is. Unfortunately the Emperor is very old and has allowed Thrakhath to do all the work. He stays at Kilrah and so does his fleet.
Also it is called the Home Fleet, maybe they really use it for the defense. Although for such an aggressive culture it is kinda strange that their best warriors are not fighting on the front. I think we have that strange situation because we have a strange Emperor. I guess some years before that the Emperor would lead the First Fleet to go where the f*** he wants and wreak havoc on the puny humans.
 
Keep in mind, we do not actually know how long the First Fleet had been out of the front lines. For the Kilrathi, the war brought new surprises almost every year - it hadn't really been going "according to plan" since its very start in 2634. It is natural that they would adjust their plans and do things in new ways, sometimes in ways deemed inappropriate to Kilrathi culture. Furthermore, if until the 2650s, most Kilrathi ships were crewed by individual clans, as the Confed Handbook quote above suggests... then imagine the impact the wartime defeats of the 2650s would have had! It may well be that at that point, the Emperor was only able to hold on to power by pulling the First Fleet back to Kilrah to prevent anyone from getting any ideas...
 
Quarto said:
then imagine the impact the wartime defeats of the 2650s would have had! It may well be that at that point, the Emperor was only able to hold on to power by pulling the First Fleet back to Kilrah to prevent anyone from getting any ideas...
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This sounds right since we know Jukaga is plotting at every moment his seizure of power from Joor'rad and Thrakhath. Jukaga had alliances with some clans, but not all, certainly not enough to carry out his plans in the open. Had his assassination attempt in 2667-68 (not sure when that occurs in FA) worked, he would have seized power in the vacuum and blamed Confed for the attack.
 
There's another point about Kilrathi warriors and their organization I'd like to hear your opinion about.
We discussed mixed crews in the Kilrathi fleet and we seem to agree that they exist. I'm happy about that because that's an important plot point in my mod's story.

But what about marines and ground troops? Do you think the same applies there? Fighting on the ground is a much more personal thing than in space. I think it is Hobbes in WC3 who mentions that fighting in the cockpit doesn't give him the same satisfaction as fighting with claws.
I also imagine ground troops will most often live much closer together than pilots, in much more extreme situations. Wouldn't it be an advantage to have platoons or at least squads consisting of warriors from the same clan? I imagine those would feel and fight much better because they trust each other more.

Dundradal mentioned the Imperial Legions on page one of this thread. I think they might be an exception (whole legions from the same clan) because they are from Kiranka and thus are supposed to not pose a threat for the emperor. But that's about the only canonical source we have, I think. We don't see Kilrathi ground troops that often after all.

So what do you think?
 
Well, as you say, there's just no info about them. We know nothing about Kilrathi ground troops. Would it make sense for them to form larger or smaller units of the same clan? Yes, and no... and the "no" might be a "yes" to some, while the "yes" will be a "no" to others :p.

Think about it. If you have units composed of one clan, sooner or later in the hierarchy there's an officer above them from another clan. What if the two clans are traditional rivals? What if troops from one clan always oddly enough find themselves in the bloodiest combat, taking the highest casualties? And while this all might seem like a solid counter-argument, well... what if this is precisely the possibility the Emperor wants to retain? What if it's in his interest to stoke blood rivalries, by having one clan accuse another of squandering its troops?

There are all kinds of considerations, as you can see - and ironically, almost every consideration will be, simultaneously, an argument and a counter-argument. It's the same with the issue of trust that you mention. On the one hand, you are right, members of the same clan would trust each other more (and their superior officers from another clan - less). On the other hand, though, let's imagine for a moment that the Emperor, far from being power-obsessed, actually has this dream of a properly unified Kilrathi race where clan loyalties are a thing of the past. Well, if that were the case, then fostering clan rivalries is a bad thing, while placing individual warriors in a situation where they must put their trust in warriors from a clan they had traditionally hated, is a good thing - it fosters racial unity.

For analogies, think about the way the US forces integrated black and white units after WWII. There's a very, very strong argument to be made that this actually would have resulted in a sharp fall in combat efficiency. For one thing, putting black and white Americans in one unit did not magically erase their mistrust. For another, all-black units at least would have felt a strong motivation to out-fight white units, to show that they're as good as the people looking down on them - and this motivation did disappear overnight when troops were integrated. But the simple fact is, even if this potential loss of combat efficiency would have been explained to the US president at the time as an argument against it, he would have not cared: he could afford to lose combat efficiency at this particular time in history, and if it helped to actually integrate American society by having blacks and whites working together - then so be it, he'd sacrifice combat efficiency for that goal.
 
Aginor said:
Dundradal mentioned the Imperial Legions on page one of this thread. I think they might be an exception (whole legions from the same clan) because they are from Kiranka and thus are supposed to not pose a threat for the emperor. But that's about the only canonical source we have, I think. We don't see Kilrathi ground troops that often after all.
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I got the impression that the legions lost at Vukar Tag were all kin to the Imperial clan. I forget if it's Banbridge or Tolwyn, but someone says something along the lines of "We've just killed a bunch of cousins to the Emperor" when referring to the legions. I can imagine other clans wanting to have members in the legions guarding the emperor as well. It can be used to show status in relation to the other clans. Another tool of control if you will.
 
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