DRAGON:The lexington is a concordia class fleet carrier. and the Vesuvius class are SUPER carriers which are expensive. Your use of Rangers in your argument removes any credence to is as well since acording to WCIII they should have been out of service years ago and being used only because of the hopelessness of the war, since they were out dated in 2669 why would they still be being produced in 2681???
What ever happened to the WC4 improvements???
- Thread starter Napoleon
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Starlight: you are dead wrong, I have my copy of Victory steak as well as WayPoint right infront of me and allow me to quote: Thunderbolt VII Shields 250 CM (Victory streak): Thunderbolt VII shield 550 cm (waypoint). so while the shields have been increased over time it is not 1000% but only around 200%. Also the Dragon (black lance) had 500 shields in 2673 so if its abilities are increased to the new weapons potential just think about how large the shields would be. And so if the WC4 fighters which would probably have about 350 shields (thunderbolts only, Longbows and Dragons have more, much more) since WC4 is inbetween WCIII and WCP we can assumne that the shields will be somewhere in between. and the vesuvius CLASS ships carry about 100 more fighters than the Midway, they can probably hold their own/win with the supporting fire from the Vesuvius Class ship's many weapons.
I clearly remenber a mission back in WC IV were we steal a carrier that was going to be upgraded, it was a concordia, I rembember that mission well since it was my first time behind a bearcat. what to you think that Confed was going to make new carriers? since they are still a lot of old carriers back from the war time, it will be cheaper to upgade the least old ones and scrap the older ones(like the victory) our do you think that confed makes a new carrier every year.Hell they even got T-botls flying around
Confed didn't have to patrol Kilrathi space (at least not in the way you seem to think) because it was Kilrathi space... they wouldn't need 5 heavy carriers like the Vesuvius, and the government wouldn't want to build that many of them because of the economical crisis that's taking place during the WC4 time.
The Lexington IS a Concordia class heavy carrier...
That carrier wasn't being upgraded actually...
Carriers and all other capships are made to last for many, many years. But there's a limit to which you can upgrade them. You obviously can't take a Bengal class ship and put it against something like the Concordia or Vesuvius...
The T-bolts are about 15 years old at the SO time, and they're already outdated.
so what the hell was confed doing in the Kilrah system, let me see turism?
My mistake in the concordia, the Concordia (dont remenber class I think that was contitution class) and her sisters are all destroyed by now.
About the upgade, that was stated in the brifing. and I was talking about carriers made just before the war ended not 20 years old carriers those just got a ticket to the junkyard.
[Edited by Dragon on 01-11-2001 at 23:52]
My mistake in the concordia, the Concordia (dont remenber class I think that was contitution class) and her sisters are all destroyed by now.
About the upgade, that was stated in the brifing. and I was talking about carriers made just before the war ended not 20 years old carriers those just got a ticket to the junkyard.
[Edited by Dragon on 01-11-2001 at 23:52]
They're certainly not keeping any heavy carriers in there.... The ship we see in the Prophecy intro is a small, probably unarmed, Copernicus class research vesel.
You'll notice that I'm not saying that Confed wasn't in Kilrathi space at all. But they did leave pretty much a lot of freedom to the Kilrathi, and they didn't really take over their systems either, so why would they be running around them?
Yes, it does look like many, if you consider the state in which Confed was, and the fact that currently there were no enemies....
Just read Actions Stations and see how Confed was treating the military, and then imagine the same thing happening right after the war. Read the WC4 novel and see how many compromises Tolwyn had to make just to get the two Vesuvius'.
Finally, read False Colors and see how much freedom to govern themselves the Kilrathi had.
Just read Actions Stations and see how Confed was treating the military, and then imagine the same thing happening right after the war. Read the WC4 novel and see how many compromises Tolwyn had to make just to get the two Vesuvius'.
Finally, read False Colors and see how much freedom to govern themselves the Kilrathi had.
Confed did not take over Kilrathi space. Like Earthworm said Confed gave the cats a lot of leeway. After the war there was an economic recession, which meant funds to increase the miltary weren't available. In 2681 there's still a lot of talk about reducign military spending. When the Nephilim arrived I believe Confed was relying on a network of space stations to keep track of what was going down throughout Kilrathi space. That's how they detected the bug's first arrival.
Quarto
Unknown Enemy
Hmm, the Eisen being a Vesuvius is one thing I still don't accept... its name is wrong, I insist . Well, as always, let me present my side...
There is another class of heavy carrier out there - the vessel we saw in Armada. Furthermore, we don't know for certain that there are no other heavy/heavy fleet carrier classes out there... certainly, we never knew there were Plunketts and Murphys out there. I imagine that had anybody suggested the existence of a new Heavy Artillery Cruiser class before SO came out, we probably would have laughed him out of the Chatzone, quoting all the trouble Tolwyn had in WC4 trying to get his precious Vesuvii. Fact is, ladies and gentlemen, things have been changing in Confed, too. Obviously, ever since Paladin's faction gained a majority in the Senate, the Navy has been seeing an influx of cash (how else, may I ask, would the whole Midway experiment come into being?)
Ergo, there might be other classes of ships we don't know about. Whether they are being produced, and the Eisen is a brand new ship, or whether it was simply an older vessel that was repaired and recommissioned (much like the Lex, except in this case with a new name being given, which does sometimes happen), is irrelevant. What it comes down to is that unless somebody from Origin specifically tells us so, the Eisen cannot be definitely proven to be a Vesuvius class. I can't prove that it actually is a different class, but my argument is sufficient proof that it need not be a Vesuvius class. And, since your sole argument for it being a Vesuvius is that it can't be anything else, your argument is rendered useless.
BTW, Earthworm, Confed most certainly does maintain a large presence in Kilrathi space... don't ya go quoting False Colours on me, because I've read it. You must keep in mind that False Colours was a long time ago, and notably the Kilrathi were given leeway because of certain flawed arguments posed by certain treasonous individuals. Since then, many things have obviously changed, and that's why we've got a Naval Station in Tal'q. They may not have heavy fleet carriers, but they sure do have Excaliburs and corvettes (also an unidentified but presumably new class of capital ship, note, since I find it hard to believe they'd be Ventures).
[Edited by Quarto on 01-12-2001 at 03:59]
. Well, as always, let me present my side...There is another class of heavy carrier out there - the vessel we saw in Armada. Furthermore, we don't know for certain that there are no other heavy/heavy fleet carrier classes out there... certainly, we never knew there were Plunketts and Murphys out there. I imagine that had anybody suggested the existence of a new Heavy Artillery Cruiser class before SO came out, we probably would have laughed him out of the Chatzone, quoting all the trouble Tolwyn had in WC4 trying to get his precious Vesuvii
. Fact is, ladies and gentlemen, things have been changing in Confed, too. Obviously, ever since Paladin's faction gained a majority in the Senate, the Navy has been seeing an influx of cash (how else, may I ask, would the whole Midway experiment come into being?)Ergo, there might be other classes of ships we don't know about. Whether they are being produced, and the Eisen is a brand new ship, or whether it was simply an older vessel that was repaired and recommissioned (much like the Lex, except in this case with a new name being given, which does sometimes happen), is irrelevant. What it comes down to is that unless somebody from Origin specifically tells us so, the Eisen cannot be definitely proven to be a Vesuvius class. I can't prove that it actually is a different class, but my argument is sufficient proof that it need not be a Vesuvius class. And, since your sole argument for it being a Vesuvius is that it can't be anything else, your argument is rendered useless.
BTW, Earthworm, Confed most certainly does maintain a large presence in Kilrathi space... don't ya go quoting False Colours on me, because I've read it
. You must keep in mind that False Colours was a long time ago, and notably the Kilrathi were given leeway because of certain flawed arguments posed by certain treasonous individuals. Since then, many things have obviously changed, and that's why we've got a Naval Station in Tal'q. They may not have heavy fleet carriers, but they sure do have Excaliburs and corvettes (also an unidentified but presumably new class of capital ship, note, since I find it hard to believe they'd be Ventures).[Edited by Quarto on 01-12-2001 at 03:59]
OriginalPhoenix
Professor Emeritus
Originally posted by Quarto
Hmm, the Eisen being a Vesuvius is one thing I still don't accept... its name is wrong, I insist
I don't believe that anyone has insisted that the EISEN is a VESUVIUS-clas carrier. What most people are stating is that it most likely is.
It's pretty much accepted, even alluded to, that the LEXINGTON in Armada is a one-of-a-kind vessel.
Given the conversations in WCP regarding the MIDWAY ("all Confed's eggs in one basket", etc.), this is HIGHLY unlikely.
Again, nobody is stating definitely what the EISEN is. However, most evidence would support that it is a VESUVIUS-class vessel.
[Edited by OriginalPhoenix on 01-12-2001 at 07:52]
Quarto
Unknown Enemy
**I don't believe that anyone has insisted that the EISEN is a VESUVIUS-clas carrier. What most people are stating is that it most likely is.** - You believe wrong .
**It's pretty much accepted, even alluded to, that the LEXINGTON in Armada is a one-of-a-kind vessel.** - That's news to me. The KSaga manual says "a heavy carrier". It doesn't say "a specially-built carrier" or anything like that, even though they could have. Therefore, we can probably assume that it's just an ordinary ship of an ordinary class, specially equipped for a particular duty. This is made all the more likely by the serious financial difficulties Confed was having at this stage of the War.
**Given the conversations in WCP regarding the MIDWAY ("all Confed's eggs in one basket", etc.), this is HIGHLY unlikely.** - Now that must surely go into the Guiness Book of Records as one of the most taken-out-of-context quotes in history. Zero was referring to the fact that the Midway is designed to be self-sufficient and all that, and thus if it goes down the result will be disasterous. He most certainly is not implying that Confed is actually relying on just one class of heavy fleet carriers, because he preceded this comment (or did this comment precede the other one? I can't remember, but it doesn't matter) with a comment about what would happen if the Midway went down. Since it is quite impossible for an entire class of ships to go down together, we must assume that he is merely talking about one ship - the Midway.
**Again, nobody is stating definitely what the EISEN is.** - Again, they most certainly are. Take a look, for example, at LOAF's ship list.
**However, most evidence would support that it is a VESUVIUS-class vessel.** - Wrong. There is no evidence to support this, because there is no evidence to disprove the existence of other types of heavy/heavy fleet carriers. And, allow me to remind you once again, the 'evidence' that supposedly would make the Eisen a Vesuvius-class, is simply 'it's not a Midway, and therefore it has no choice but to be a Vesuvius'. The 'has no choice' part has not been proven, and therefore this is not evidence of anything.
.**It's pretty much accepted, even alluded to, that the LEXINGTON in Armada is a one-of-a-kind vessel.** - That's news to me. The KSaga manual says "a heavy carrier". It doesn't say "a specially-built carrier" or anything like that, even though they could have. Therefore, we can probably assume that it's just an ordinary ship of an ordinary class, specially equipped for a particular duty. This is made all the more likely by the serious financial difficulties Confed was having at this stage of the War.
**Given the conversations in WCP regarding the MIDWAY ("all Confed's eggs in one basket", etc.), this is HIGHLY unlikely.** - Now that must surely go into the Guiness Book of Records as one of the most taken-out-of-context quotes in history. Zero was referring to the fact that the Midway is designed to be self-sufficient and all that, and thus if it goes down the result will be disasterous. He most certainly is not implying that Confed is actually relying on just one class of heavy fleet carriers, because he preceded this comment (or did this comment precede the other one? I can't remember, but it doesn't matter) with a comment about what would happen if the Midway went down. Since it is quite impossible for an entire class of ships to go down together, we must assume that he is merely talking about one ship - the Midway.
**Again, nobody is stating definitely what the EISEN is.** - Again, they most certainly are. Take a look, for example, at LOAF's ship list.
**However, most evidence would support that it is a VESUVIUS-class vessel.** - Wrong. There is no evidence to support this, because there is no evidence to disprove the existence of other types of heavy/heavy fleet carriers. And, allow me to remind you once again, the 'evidence' that supposedly would make the Eisen a Vesuvius-class, is simply 'it's not a Midway, and therefore it has no choice but to be a Vesuvius'. The 'has no choice' part has not been proven, and therefore this is not evidence of anything.
we see a vesuvius getting blow up in Secret ops, Eisen have vapires that are assigned to heavy carriers so the Eisen is a heavy carrier, the midway had a hard time to pass the congress so new Carries (Heavy ones) classes are not very likely to get aproval.
All evidence points to the ONLY heavy carrier class around is the vesuvius.
Of couse that if someone sees a new carrier in the game...
All evidence points to the ONLY heavy carrier class around is the vesuvius.
Of couse that if someone sees a new carrier in the game...
The Concordias are most likelly not heavy at the Prophecy time, at least not when compared to Midway and Vesuvius class ships. They carry less fighters, are smaller with less weapons, and weaker shields/armor.
Also, where in the hell have you heard that the Vesuvius class is a super carrier? They are fleet carriers as given in the WC4 novel, and untill the WC movie I don't belive there even were ships with Super in their classifications.
Also, where in the hell have you heard that the Vesuvius class is a super carrier? They are fleet carriers as given in the WC4 novel, and untill the WC movie I don't belive there even were ships with Super in their classifications.