WC3 replayed

[Mekt-Hakkikt]

Hello everyone!

Now that I have a joystick again for the first time in...I don't know, at least four years I think, and almost all WC titles on GOG, I finally returned to replaying the WC games. While I had great fun playing Privateer again when it was released on GOG even though only on a keyboard, I didn't want to play the main WC games that way. And even though WC1 and 2 are my favourite parts, somehow I am refraining myself from playing them first - I'm still hoping that the add-ons will be released soon.

So, like DangerousCook, I found myself replaying WC3 for the first time in a long time. It was quite a pleasing experience and I finished it yesterday (and checked out the Delius and Proxima losing tracks but not Blackmane and Tamayo losing tracks).

WC3 was always my least favourite WC title (and that includes Academy and Priv2) and I even remember not having fun playing it. My dislike mostly stems from how the story was developed. I am no fan of destroying Kilrah and think the Kilrathi are shown just too much as clichéd villains who eat babies and attack transports carrying orphans. Also, I found the crew to be really unlikeable and the Terran ships to be boring in design whereas the Kilrathi fighters were ridiculously underpowered and their asymmetrical forms were taken a bit too much to the extreme I think.

Those gripes remain even after my recent replay. Flint and Cobra are so annoying personalities, ugh. I also think how they deposed of Angel pretty ingloriously and Blair moves on far too quickly for my taste. Stingray sure wasn't friendly to you in WC2 but I still liked him more than any one else in WC3.

I was also bothered by something I didn't remember bothering me before: the interaction with the crew, the way the story is told, I felt quite detached. I don't know but the way WC1 and WC2 tells the story more evoked a sense of community with my wingmen and my carrier than in WC3. I also felt pretty involved in WC4 with the crew, don't know why it felt all so shallow now in WC3. I also found there was very little humour.

I was also surprised at how easily I beat the game. Granted, I only played on Ace but I thought I'd have more troubles in the past with WC3 and after such a long time, I feared I had to lower the difficulty, but no, I almost had no problems at all and had only to replay some missions once, maybe twice, never more. The only fighter I really found hard to dogfight against was the Vakthoth because it seems to use its afterburners constantly. Every other fighter posed more or less no problem, except the Paktahn's tail turret maybe. And I wasn't trying to get all the kills but sent my wingmen to do their part of the work.

But before this reads as if I'm only complaining, I have to say: I really enjoyed playing the core game, i.e. flying and fighting. It was much more fun than I had remembered and WC3 has risen quite in my esteem. So, from a gameplay point of view, it's really excellent. And it looks far more bright and colourful than WC4.

Some things that surprised me: capships are more of a threat than I remembered. I knew that the Corvettes were a pain in the ass but even the other cap ships (except the carrier) did offer some serious threat and destroying the turrets on them was more difficult than I remembered. Also, I don't think I had as many missile misses in other WC games as here.

Speaking of missiles: I had the distinct feeling that IR missiles now reacquired lock even when first evaded or at least, when you fire them at a target but the target is destroyed before the missiles hit, they search out a new target. Am I imagining things?

Something that shocked me personally: the Hellcat, while boring, is not as bad a fighter as I always thought it was. I found myself deliberately choosing it over the Arrow. The Neutron guns really make a diference.

Also, the idea of having the Kilrathi aces fly specially marked and modified fighters is a very cool one, too bad we don't encounter Deathfang and Deathstroke. I wonder what their special loadout would have been. And, the Dralthi IV, while being a pretty crappy fighter, just looks incredibly cool when flying by. The whole game has held up pretty well I think.

I also read the WC3 novel while playing the game and Hobbes is said to be a Lt.Col. in the book - that matches his rank insignia in the WC3 movies I think. But I remember seeing the Colonel eagle on his uniform in WC2. So the good Hobbes got demoted between WC2 and WC3 as it seems?

Red and Blue squadraon in the novel are being described as flying both Arrow fighters. Putting aside the possibility that the Victory carried two variants of the same fighter, from the descriptions and the context on some passages, I think Red squadron was supposed to be the Hellcat squadron (point defense) and Blue Squadron the Arrow squadron (interceptos). Anyone came to a different conclusion ?

Hmm, a lenghty post. Maybe some0ne wants to share his thoughts? Anyway, it was very good to play WC3 after such a long time and an interesting experience because I experienced it quite differently from what I remembered. It was great fun and thanks to everyone who made it possible. I guess I'll play WC4 for earnest now and then try out Saga and finish Standoff. Maybe the WC1 and 2 expansions will be released by then. If not, well, I don't think I can deprive myself from playing WC 1 and 2 then any longer.

 

[DangerousCook]

It's cool that you just recently picked up a joystick, because that's exactly what I did too! This led to me also picking up some titles on GOG, and completing WC1 for the very first time.

While I wouldn't call myself a "fan" of destroying Kilrah, I did enjoy the massive undertaking that they made penetrating enemy territory out to be, with waves and waves of opposition and the most daring pilots dying at your side. I do wish that some more of the remorse/hesitation Blair had for killing so many people was emphasized as it was in the novel. Also, I wouldn't blame Kilrathi as baby eaters on WC3, as that seed was planted much earlier.

One of the factors that might make you feel more detached from the character interaction in WC3 could be the CG backgrounds...I know that sounds strange, but personally in WC4 (for example) when Panther and Hawk are drinking coffee, stretching and generally suffering from a lack of sleep, I felt a sense of reality and unity as members of a ship, which I think was helped by the sets they used for that film (in addition to the script and the performances). That being said, I love the characters in WC3 (both game and novel). It's kind of funny because in this run-through I probably flew with Cobra and Flint more than anyone else

Red Squadron in the novel is supposed to be Hellcats, I think. I say this because every other reference to them in the novel mentions Hellcats rather than Arrows.

I didn't find Corvettes difficult, though I switched from Nightmare to Hard when I realized that Blackmane was going to take me an eternity to beat. To stop Corvettes in any fighter, I took a page out of my wingmen's book and did strafing runs on them, turning back when my front shields were reaching a single bar. After the shields recharged, I would go back in (oh, I also killed escorts first, then cut some power to engines here in addition to cutting damage repair at the beginning of the mission). It takes a bit of patience depending on the circumstances, but otherwise they are quite kill-able.

I also have never been bothered by the Hellcat (in WC3 or WC4). Yes, I guess that makes me one of "those people". I do think that a problem with it in this game is that it is outclassed in the most pertinent departments by either the Arrow or Thunderbolt, and that I can't think of a specific mission where flying those instead isn't the optimal decision (actually there's one mission: Locanda IV defense on Nightmare...if you're not also going after Flint. Hellcat is fast enough to chase missiles, and can be loaded with IFF missiles to keep cloaking guys off you. Then when missiles are hosed, the fighters and Destroyer have no chance against the Hellcats.) Regardless, I took it out more than a couple times.

Lastly, I suppose one of the powerful things about the series is that there can be so many differing opinions on games, ships, characters etc. Whereas you have not enjoyed WC3 as much as some of the other games, I find it to be probably the best one they ever made. Thanks for sharing your experience on the forums.

EDIT: Last thing I should say is that anyone nostalgic for WC3 or looking to improve in WC should check out the Adarisa youtube channel. He is Ilanin on this forum, and (even though he bashed me) his videos for WC3 are superb

 

[Mekt-Hakkikt]

It's true that WC1 already had stories about Kilrathi cruelty (shooting ejected pilots, using prisoners as hunting objects, slavery etc) but still, I think WC3 pushed it too far. I too found strafing runs to be effective against corvettes, but I used a lot of afterburner fuel up in them and rather often I stayed on target too long .

Thanks for your thoughts!

 

[Ilanin]

WC3's story, inasmuch as it has an "about", is about how war affects us - as people and as a nation/race/species (this goes nicely in a pair with WC4, which is about how peace affects us). The whole point of the plot is that during 30 years of warfare, Kilrathi honour and Terran compassion - the noblest parts of each race's outlook - have both been abandoned in favour of victory at any cost. So yes, WC3's plot is quite dark, but in a meaningful way (and if it wasn't, WC4 could not have been written, at least not the way it was).

 

[Ijuin]

I also have never been bothered by the Hellcat (in WC3 or WC4). Yes, I guess that makes me one of "those people". I do think that a problem with it in this game is that it is outclassed in the most pertinent departments by either the Arrow or Thunderbolt, and that I can't think of a specific mission where flying those instead isn't the optimal decision (actually there's one mission: Locanda IV defense on Nightmare...if you're not also going after Flint. Hellcat is fast enough to chase missiles, and can be loaded with IFF missiles to keep cloaking guys off you.

I think that a big problem is that the Arrow is a bit overpowered vs. the Hellcat. The Arrow gets eight missiles while the Hellcat gets only six, even though the Hellcat gets to pick any kind of missile while the Arrow gets only heatseeker/image recognition. Now, if the Arrow had four missiles any-type, like the WC4 version, then I think it would help put the two fighters more into relative balance.

 

[Farbourne]

On the Hellcat in WC3:

It *was* a little underpowered compared to the other fighters you could access (the Arrow and the 'Thud). However, there are a few points in the 'Cat's favor:

* Vaktoths - The 'Cat was the best option (pre-Excalibur) for tangling with them. The Arrow's guns were too light to be able to damage them easily, and the Thunderbolt can't keep up with them because they lay on AB the entire time. But the Hellcat can dent them, and outfly them.

* It's true that, for a given mission, EITHER the Arrow or the Thunderbolt was often a better choice, but almost never were BOTH a better choice. The Hellcat was the perfect fighter to take if you didn't know *what* you would be facing. It could tangle with the light, maneuverable foes than the Thunderbolt could, and pack a better punch against the Sorthaks, Vaktoths, Kamranis, Pakthanhs, etc. than the Arrow could. In hindsight after you'd tried a mission once (or if you consulted a guide) you could pick Arrow/Thunderbolt optimally, but if you had to make a blind decision a priori and live with the consequences of that decision, I bet you'd pick the Hellcat a lot more.

That said, I agree with Ijuin that they should have scaled back the Arrow's missile loadout, or increased the Hellcat's. Or at the very least, limited the Arrow to heatseekers and dumbfires, not Imrecs and heatseekers. Packing more effective missiles would have been a great way to incentivize the 'Cat more. (Not to mention the poor, neglected heatseeker missile...there is absolutely zero reason in WC3 to ever use a heatseeker since every fighter that can carry one can also carry an Imrec). (Interestingly, some of the guides/fiction, I forget which, imply that originally the Arrow should have been able to carry dumbfires as well. It was an odd decision, gameplay wise, to eliminate this option. Since the only reason to take a dumbfire in WC3 is to give a lighter fighter some anti-capship capability...and if the light fighter can't carry a DF, it means you'll never use dumbfires. You'll just take a Thunderbolt instead if you need to tangle with capships).

Speaking of changes between the game and the fiction--it's interesting that EVERY guide (them manual, Warbirds, the Origin Official Guide, and the Authorized Combat Guide) all list the Hellcat as having the exact same gun loadout as the Arrow--lasers and ions. Either it was a typo that got propagated, or they originally had the same loadout and someone at the last minute decided that the Hellcat sucked too much and made the change to ions/neutrons instead. Imagine if the 'Cat and the Arrow had the same guns...there REALLY would be no reason to ever fly a Hellcat!

 

[Quarto]

* It's true that, for a given mission, EITHER the Arrow or the Thunderbolt was often a better choice, but almost never were BOTH a better choice. The Hellcat was the perfect fighter to take if you didn't know *what* you would be facing. It could tangle with the light, maneuverable foes than the Thunderbolt could, and pack a better punch against the Sorthaks, Vaktoths, Kamranis, Pakthanhs, etc. than the Arrow could. In hindsight after you'd tried a mission once (or if you consulted a guide) you could pick Arrow/Thunderbolt optimally, but if you had to make a blind decision a priori and live with the consequences of that decision, I bet you'd pick the Hellcat a lot more.

I don't know about that. My blind choice was actually always Arrow or Thunderbolt (and most of the time, it was Arrow). I do not recall a single situation where, on my first fly-through, I found myself wishing I'd chosen the Hellcat. The extra agility easily offset the reduced armour and shields.

I wonder if the Hellcat wasn't intentionally under-powered - it's a medium fighter, and that's basically the Excalibur's role, too. If the Hellcat were too good, the Excalibur wouldn't shine quite as well as it did, someone could potentially choose the Hellcat (if it were better) over the Excalibur. But if that's the case, then the effect is entirely spoiled by the lack of restrictions on player's ship choices.

 

[Ilanin]

(Not to mention the poor, neglected heatseeker missile...there is absolutely zero reason in WC3 to ever use a heatseeker since every fighter that can carry one can also carry an Imrec).

Spoken like somebody who has clearly not spent anywhere near enough time intercepting Paktahns on Nightmare. Paired HS missiles do enough damage to one-hit kill a Paktahn (assuming one of them doesn't decide to take a different flight path and thus strike a different shield, which is really annoying), which paired IR missiles do not. For this reason, in Arrow intercept missions I practically always take Heatseekers - in any case, the HS missile's supposed disadvantage is fairly minor, since an Arrow will never struggle to stay on an enemy's tail long enough to lock a heatseeker and while an HS has about a 5% chance of missing if it doesn't hit straight away whereas an IR has probably a 25% chance, that's not really a big enough variation to matter to me.

My blind choice in my first run-through (on Ace) was usually Thunderbolt; playing the same game a year or so later on Nightmare which was pretty much blind because I'd forgotten everything, it was Arrow. I'd certainly never want to take on a Sorthak, and ideally not a Paktahn either, in a Hellcat, whereas an Arrow can use autoslide to evade turret fire. Like Quarto, I think the Hellcat was intentionally under-powered (and like him, I dispute the Excalibur's "heavy fighter" designation). The basic problem it has is that there's two ways to dogfight in WCIII; aggressive, making best use of the AI's tendency to break off head-to-heads when it starts taking damage, and defensive, evening the odds against the Kilrathi with intelligent use of missiles and then trying to wear down the side and rear armour without taking too many shots yourself. The Thunderbolt excels at the first and the Arrow excels at the second; there's no real room for "in-between" flying or, therefore, the Hellcat.

(Excalibur dogfighting is another matter entirely, and sort of combines the two, based on the way you can hit enemies without having to point your fighter directly at them).

 

[Ijuin]

On the Hellcat in WC3:
It could tangle with the light, maneuverable foes than the Thunderbolt could, and pack a better punch against the Sorthaks, Vaktoths, Kamranis, Pakthanhs, etc. than the Arrow could.

Ugh, facing Sorthaks in an Arrow--the quad Meson guns in its turret would chew you up if you got on his tail, and he's a bit too agile for hit-and-run tactics.

(Interestingly, some of the guides/fiction, I forget which, imply that originally the Arrow should have been able to carry dumbfires as well. It was an odd decision, gameplay wise, to eliminate this option. Since the only reason to take a dumbfire in WC3 is to give a lighter fighter some anti-capship capability...and if the light fighter can't carry a DF, it means you'll never use dumbfires. You'll just take a Thunderbolt instead if you need to tangle with capships).

Dumbfires would be highly useful against Sorthaks and Pakthans--a dumbfire could almost one-hit kill a Pak.

 

[DangerousCook]

I'm replaying this game already, this time I'm determined to stay on Nightmare with it. First mission in Locanda is pretty hairy! I've been trying out Maniac on this mission...I really need someone who can deal with enemies quickly. The issue is, at the Nav Point where the Destroyer needs to be hosed to keep extra fighters from coming in, he doesn't seem to give me any type of cover. I really want to use a fighter like the Arrow or Hellcat for this one, but I feel like that Destroyer will just be too much trouble... I may end up trying it anyway.

I have an idea for a play-through after this one, in which all "low morale" choices are selected, in other words, trying to beat the game on Nightmare while also being the biggest jerk on the carrier, and not really having any positive relationships. It seems very harsh, but I'm curious to what extent the pilot morale will effect the difficulty of the game. Maybe it's just dumb since the game is hard enough as-is.

 

[Ijuin]

You can beat the destroyer in a Hellcat, but to do it you'll probably have to approach it from its blind spot (dead astern) where you will suffer the least from turret fire on your approach.

 

[DangerousCook]

You can beat the destroyer in a Hellcat, but to do it you'll probably have to approach it from its blind spot (dead astern) where you will suffer the least from turret fire on your approach.

Yeah, I considered the Hellcat, but then I realized that I really don't like the Hellcat against Dralthi at all on Nightmare (Arrows can dodge their missile spam much more effectively).

I ended up beating the mission by making a personal discovery: Hobbes is probably the best wingman in WC3. I spent so much time intentionally not flying with him/not talking to him (because of later events in the game), and it turns out that he is absolutely awesome. He took (as he said) about 50% damage early on in the mission (we were flying Arrows), and still kept enemy numbers down - and subsequently off my tail - through the whole thing.

At the nav point in question, I sent him solo to take on the Destroyer while I felt I could keep the Dralthi occupied. Sure enough, he took down the Destroyer in time, and came back to help me even more. One aspect of this mission I've been abusing is the fact that you can bypass Nav 4 by simply back-tracking your way to the Victory. Kinda cheap, but my fighter is always beat to crumbs and out of missiles/gas at that point. Still counts as a completed mission.

I'm at the Alcor missions now, and they are tough! Ilanin's vids are still a ways off from there, so I'll have to rough it/do some experimenting.