WC3 questions . . .
- Thread starter Viper61
- Start date
I really didn't change the argument, I said I don't like the cloaking device the way it is presented in either the WC or star trek universe, though I still love both. The cloak must be used to get to kilrah, I can live with my fantasy that I have the "radar shroud" cloak from the WC3 book and from my personal taste, but the cloak doesn't have to be used to get through "beggers canyon" on Kilrah.
It's make believe. Are you going to tell me your playing a made-up game, with a made up scenario and you can't let me make up a set of rules to play by? It's a matter of taste. Do you kill the fly with a fly-swatter, a rolled-up newspaper, or a hammer? Do you want to kill the poor little Darket fighter with a stream of light fire from your Arrow, or splatter it all over the universe with a full salvo of IR missles from your T'Bolt?
Nonetheless, your response to his argument had absolutely nothing to do with his argument.
You can make your own 'chivalrous' set of rules to follow in a made up world, but if your made up world doesn't interact with someone else's made up world, don't go around complaining because others have the opportunity to ignore your set of rules.
The above doesn't really make sense. The book and the game are separate and different. The book says Blair ends up with Rachel. You can choose either Rachel, or Flint, or neither in the game. You don't have to like it. That's how it is. You also haven't given any reason why the cloak wouldn't work in the atmosphere. Even if you had it wouldn't make one bit of difference because your individual opinion doesn't count, when it comes to what's possible, in the game itself. Finally how is claoking in the trench run cheating, when using it in space isn't? Does that make the Kilrathi cheaters, since they have cloaked fighters and missiles?
What is this? Self-imposed stupidity? Medieval knights wore armor because it protected them, not because it was honorable. Then the gun made them obsolete and they ceased to exist, except as an honorific. It makes no sense to limit yourself in combat, when your life and the lives of your friends are on the line.
good God this is getting frustrating!
Frosty: Okay, lets say you can bend light in such a fashion as to make something invisible. The problem you immediately run into is is light a wave or a particle? Lets go with the current "duality of light" theory that light is both a particle and a wave at the same time. Light falls under the Hisenberg principle, it's small enough as a "particle-lets go with electron sized" that one can't determine its position and direction without altering it's course (Star trek gets around this by using Hisenberg compensators in its transporters, and, I'm guessing it's cloaking devices. I pardon star trek because I think the WC universe is a bit more realistic and based on nature than Star trek is. I can wrap my mind around a concept of a jump node <say something casued by a black hole, neutron star, etc> letting ships travel between points in space <collapsing space accodian-style> much better than I can think of subspace.) If light is more of a electromagnetic wave, here is my argument. When we sense a light wave, radio wave, etc etc. we can't construct it directly into what it once was. When you recieve a radio wave, your radio takes the signal converts that signal into analog and filters out noise to get a passable re-creation of the signal originally sent out. Everything that you own from your tv, to your cell phone, recreates the signal as best it can , but not perfectly. This is why I believe that a cloaking device, if imaginable, would have a "shimmer" effect to it. Anything we use to measure something or recieve something reconstructs the signal to a close enough rendition, thereby causing a shimmer when the components "reconstruction" is a little off.
Okay one down.
junior: I'm not complaining that noone else uses my rules, I use my rules (no matter how lame people think they are) and All I wanted was an answer to my question about using the cloak. I just added my 2 cents in because I thought someone out there might, share the same viewpoint as me. Damn was I wrong. I didn't expect to incite a mini-riot.
Penguin: The above answers a little of your question, but here is the rest. I know that's how it is. I think I've said that a few times in this thread. Thanks for clearing that up. My opinion may not count but take a wild guess as to one of the major reasons for this board is, *say it with me now* .. . opinions. You can fly through the bodies of the cap-ships to hide from enemies like some bugs in the game let you do, it's in the game right? So its alright? No, just as you (I hope) don't beleive you can hide inside the body of a cap-ship, I don't beleive the bug that lets you use the cloak in the atmosphere is right (in addition to I think the invisibilty cloak isn't right, but that's been discussed at length) Next issue. I have to use the cloak in space to get by the unending stream of Kilrathi you encounter at the last navpoint (besides as stated before I can fantasize that it's my afforementioned radar cloak, but we all knkow where that line of thought leads to, don't we?). And as for the Kilrathi, we all know how unhonorable they become while fighting Confed. But hey, as I said before they are using Invisible cloaks and as I've said before I have to deal with it (and my shrink gets paid by the hour!!). Next topic. Knights didn't cease to exist they tried (along with the church) to keep the chivalric code alive while they were being killed by the new advances in technology (longbow, crossbow, then firearms). it didn't work and they are a sight form the past. And by the way, it's an analogy. I didn't expect every part of the 17th century to be brought up because of it!
It's a part of history that appeals to me and the way I live. Don't take things so literally/seriously, you're going to give yourself a heart attack. Oh and by the way, "It makes no sense to limit yourself in combat, when your life and the lives of your friends are on the line." ? What do you think our militaries do everyday? I'm sure an all out bombing raid over afganistan would do the trick, but you have all those civies to worry about. Damn a few H-bombs would be even better, but you have the same problem. Lets see limit myself in combat, so what would you like the policeman to do with a suspect after a crime? Gun him down without thought? Limits are what makes a society a society, we just get technical and call them laws.
I think that's everything. If not give me a post and I'll be more than happy to respond.
Good day.
Frosty: Okay, lets say you can bend light in such a fashion as to make something invisible. The problem you immediately run into is is light a wave or a particle? Lets go with the current "duality of light" theory that light is both a particle and a wave at the same time. Light falls under the Hisenberg principle, it's small enough as a "particle-lets go with electron sized" that one can't determine its position and direction without altering it's course (Star trek gets around this by using Hisenberg compensators in its transporters, and, I'm guessing it's cloaking devices. I pardon star trek because I think the WC universe is a bit more realistic and based on nature than Star trek is. I can wrap my mind around a concept of a jump node <say something casued by a black hole, neutron star, etc> letting ships travel between points in space <collapsing space accodian-style> much better than I can think of subspace.) If light is more of a electromagnetic wave, here is my argument. When we sense a light wave, radio wave, etc etc. we can't construct it directly into what it once was. When you recieve a radio wave, your radio takes the signal converts that signal into analog and filters out noise to get a passable re-creation of the signal originally sent out. Everything that you own from your tv, to your cell phone, recreates the signal as best it can , but not perfectly. This is why I believe that a cloaking device, if imaginable, would have a "shimmer" effect to it. Anything we use to measure something or recieve something reconstructs the signal to a close enough rendition, thereby causing a shimmer when the components "reconstruction" is a little off.
Okay one down.
junior: I'm not complaining that noone else uses my rules, I use my rules (no matter how lame people think they are) and All I wanted was an answer to my question about using the cloak. I just added my 2 cents in because I thought someone out there might, share the same viewpoint as me. Damn was I wrong. I didn't expect to incite a mini-riot.
Penguin: The above answers a little of your question, but here is the rest. I know that's how it is. I think I've said that a few times in this thread. Thanks for clearing that up. My opinion may not count but take a wild guess as to one of the major reasons for this board is, *say it with me now* .. . opinions. You can fly through the bodies of the cap-ships to hide from enemies like some bugs in the game let you do, it's in the game right? So its alright? No, just as you (I hope) don't beleive you can hide inside the body of a cap-ship, I don't beleive the bug that lets you use the cloak in the atmosphere is right (in addition to I think the invisibilty cloak isn't right, but that's been discussed at length) Next issue. I have to use the cloak in space to get by the unending stream of Kilrathi you encounter at the last navpoint (besides as stated before I can fantasize that it's my afforementioned radar cloak, but we all knkow where that line of thought leads to, don't we?). And as for the Kilrathi, we all know how unhonorable they become while fighting Confed. But hey, as I said before they are using Invisible cloaks and as I've said before I have to deal with it (and my shrink gets paid by the hour!!). Next topic. Knights didn't cease to exist they tried (along with the church) to keep the chivalric code alive while they were being killed by the new advances in technology (longbow, crossbow, then firearms). it didn't work and they are a sight form the past. And by the way, it's an analogy. I didn't expect every part of the 17th century to be brought up because of it!
It's a part of history that appeals to me and the way I live. Don't take things so literally/seriously, you're going to give yourself a heart attack. Oh and by the way, "It makes no sense to limit yourself in combat, when your life and the lives of your friends are on the line." ? What do you think our militaries do everyday? I'm sure an all out bombing raid over afganistan would do the trick, but you have all those civies to worry about. Damn a few H-bombs would be even better, but you have the same problem. Lets see limit myself in combat, so what would you like the policeman to do with a suspect after a crime? Gun him down without thought? Limits are what makes a society a society, we just get technical and call them laws. I think that's everything. If not give me a post and I'll be more than happy to respond.
Good day.
I think you're mixing apples and oranges in your analogies. How about this? US troops stop using night-vision equipment, Apache helicopters, M-16 rifles, Daisy-bombs, et al because the Taliban do not have the same equipment. Police stop using Kevlar vests because criminals don't have them. Sure there are limits in combat but your examples represent extremes and do not make sense in the cloaking/no cloaking argument.
Be honest, if you were the one whose life was on the line, wouldn't you want any/every technological advantage you could get your hands on? I know I would. For the cloaking argument, I think it would have been simple enough to say that you wanted more of a challenge in the game.
Mekt-Hakkikt
Mpanty's bane
I think Viper61 was a bit unspecific in his first post but now he made his point rather clear in my eyes: He sees "tota"l cloaks as unhonourable (and I don't think that it's coincidence that in many SF the enemy uses cloaks) and thus applies the novel version of the radar cloak to the game. I see no real problem...
What did I say about reading to much into analogies? I admit I was even a bit unclear in that last post but I'll try and spell this one out. . .
Technology of war has changed quite a bit since medeival times. What I was trying to get across is what hasn't changes are our limits on the technology available. The bombing raids and atomic weapons of our day are analogous (I'm going to get in trouble for using this word again) with the firearm and cannon of medieval times. Think about the progession (we'll start with the knights for times sake, I've got a project yelling at me to finish). Knights dominate feudal warfare, enter a technology change that can causes mass destruction (crossbows, firearms), and both the church and the kinghts try and limit if not banish the use of each to keep their way of life alive, they fail.
fastforward a few centuries. . .
WW1, both sides are pretty set in a way of war, all have carbines, machine guns, etc, Central powers begin to use poison gas (weapon of mass destruction), after war, both sides agree to not use poison gas because of the sheer destructive power (In this case, the reigning military men somewhat succeed in what the knights failed, though we are still fighting with biological warfare accusations today).
fastforward a few decades . ..
WWII, (getting shorter) all of the above, atomic weapons introduced (weapons of mass destruction), it takes a few years but we begin disarming/limiting our nuclear weapons. Military men again somewhat succeed in what the knights failed.
I was just pointing out how limits have always been around on warfare. If I want to limit my warfare on my PC, then I hope I'm more successful than the knights were.
And yes, more challenge is one reason. Having fun within my own little WC universe is another.
And Mekt-Hakkikt, thank you (though I somehow get the feeling you said that just so I'd shut up
), now can I get another question answered without getting snowballed. are there any joysticks on the market (I'm sure there are) that return to the centered position after you've moved the stick? If so, what phrase should I look for to describe the joystick. The joystick I just bought does not return and it's just not what I'm used to.Later
Viper61: I get what you're saying, but I'd like to comment on some of your examples.
Firstly why shouldn't a fighter be able hide inside its carrier, if the carrier has a large easily accessible hangar? Afterall the Victory Streak mentions pilots flying into hangars to destroy the capship. WC4 has a mission that specifies such an attack profile. So why can't one make use of that option?
Secondly if the cloak that let's you get by the endless Kilrathi fighters in space is OK, then why can't you use it to get past the endless waves of Ekapshis in the atmosphere?
Thirdly dump the shrink. They're not worth it
Firstly why shouldn't a fighter be able hide inside its carrier, if the carrier has a large easily accessible hangar? Afterall the Victory Streak mentions pilots flying into hangars to destroy the capship. WC4 has a mission that specifies such an attack profile. So why can't one make use of that option?
Secondly if the cloak that let's you get by the endless Kilrathi fighters in space is OK, then why can't you use it to get past the endless waves of Ekapshis in the atmosphere?
Thirdly dump the shrink. They're not worth it
Penguin: I don't mean hide in the hanger bay, I menat there are bugs in some of teh WC games, especially in my DOS ones, that let you fly inside the shi, not in the hanger bay. You fly like your going to hit the ship and bam you flying staight through the hull, and nothing can hurt you! It's just a bug in the programming.
Also I believe the ability to use the cloak again while you are in Kilrahs atmosphere is a bug, I think they meant for you to have to fight your way there. If you don't it seems kindof cheap to me( I had to battle through all of this to coast undetected to the fault line?). That's why I don't like using it. You know you've brought up a good point, If the Ekapshis don't see me because they're pretty far off and have to rely on their radars, I guess the cloak is "usable" in my little WC universe. Still I'll stick with fighting it out. (Oh, and the sad thing is, I just got finished taking a psychology class as an elective. So I can misdiagnose myself now!! )
Also I believe the ability to use the cloak again while you are in Kilrahs atmosphere is a bug, I think they meant for you to have to fight your way there. If you don't it seems kindof cheap to me( I had to battle through all of this to coast undetected to the fault line?). That's why I don't like using it. You know you've brought up a good point, If the Ekapshis don't see me because they're pretty far off and have to rely on their radars, I guess the cloak is "usable" in my little WC universe. Still I'll stick with fighting it out.
(Oh, and the sad thing is, I just got finished taking a psychology class as an elective. So I can misdiagnose myself now!! )I'm not sure how one can consider a gun a weapon of mass destruction especially the one-shot deals that were around during the knight's age but...the other examples you mentioned are good examples of limits in warfare. Not using a technological/strategic advantage such as cloaking, hiding in a carrier, using radar, developing your own guns (you went forward I went back) is, in my mind, just not smart - in real life (game playing is different of course). And as you know, there's a huge difference between this and using a weapon of mass destruction - I'm pretty sure that agreeing not to use poison gas had nothing to do with honor or chivalry.
I can't be sure but doesn't the Sidewinder Force Feedback joystick return to center?
well, i didnt use the cloak in the trench run, cos its more fun, but i accept that some ppl might want an easier ride, as for using the cloak in space, that cannot be defined as cheating for one very simple reason, otherwise itd be you vs the kat fleet
no one is ever goin to say that they could win that
no one is ever goin to say that they could win that
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
FYI, full cloaks in Wing Commander do work in the atmosphere -- whether you consider 'recloaking' at Kilrah to be a bug or not (IIRC, it is *not* a bug), we see Pliers cloak a Lance on the flight deck in WCIV.
OriginalPhoenix
Professor Emeritus
Actually, I believe it IS a bug. Some time ago (a LONG time ago), I seem o recall seeing where one of the programmers mentioned that we weren't supposed to be able to cloak on Kilrah -- that we were supposed to fight our way there. However, the same bug that causes all your power/shields/guns settings to reset whenever you go atmospheric, also resets the cloak variable.
Personally, I like to do the run on Kilrah uncloaked, staying down inth etrench for as long as possible. The Ekapshi cannot see you unless you "pop up", and there are occasional tanks in the trench. It makes for a longer, but somewhat more satisfying, mission.
Personally, I like to do the run on Kilrah uncloaked, staying down inth etrench for as long as possible. The Ekapshi cannot see you unless you "pop up", and there are occasional tanks in the trench. It makes for a longer, but somewhat more satisfying, mission.
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
Odd -- I remember being told the exact opposite by a developer some years back... that the cloak is there so you can avoid the unlimited enemy fighters <G>