WC Saga Seeking Voice Actors (February 7, 2011)

[Bandit LOAF]

Howdy folks,

I apologize in advance but I want to be serious for a moment.

I have been told by someone on IRC last night that a German message board is upset with how Saga has been treated in this thread. I wanted to repeat some of what I said on IRC which seemed to interest folks.

As for Ghost's post I can only say: he's just joking and it's not what anyone really thinks. No one believes Saga has anything to do with Nazis or racism or any of that crap. Ghost is from Argentina and we have been joking with him about escaped Nazis for years... so, that's all that is. He is a good guy.

And LeHah... well, I can't defend LeHah.

Next, I want to tell a story that it turns out no one knows--it's something I just assumed leaked long ago... but folks were shocked to hear it last night. Our team was directly responsible for saving Saga. About two years ago, the powers that be were ready to shut down Saga. I was working on a (now dead, sorry) Privateer MMO pitch and the team had trawled community to look at what kind of work fans were doing. (I honestly do not know why they do this, but it has happened on every project I've worked on.)

The reaction to Saga was the same as people here--this looks great but who the hell does this guy think he is? Tolwyn (Saga's 'PR' man) comes off constantly as really, really obnoxious. Every Saga update feels, for the lack of a better term, slimy--disgustingly slick, as if the team was looking for attention in the press or a job instead of turning out a fan game. The tone is all wrong, over the top and our producer heard about Saga trying to get on cover discs and doing "interviews" with gaming sites and was furious... and we were the ones who talked them down, convinced them that even if Tolwyn seemed unpleasant that Saga being released was good for the existing fans and the brand.

So, that's the secret side to our relationship with Saga. We've been critical of it in the past but it has always been to help make it a better game... not out of some desire for 'revenge' against the project. Everyone here wants to see Saga released, wants to play Saga, even wants to see Saga noticed in the mainstream. The Saga team hasn't made that easy in recent years, but we're not out to kill the damn game.

That said, if the Saga guys are reading I would love to talk about the writing.

One long-standing worry that I have about Saga is that a hard working non-English speaking team is being taken advantage by others, especially (I know, this is funny for me to admit) Americans. A good example is the 'crew' page that someone linked to earlier in this thread (http://www.wcsaga.com/features/crew.html). I would ask Germans to first read through that and tell me what sticks out--I'll wait.

My fear is that non-English speakers didn't pick out the entry for "Viper61", one of Saga's American writers. My fear is that when he writes "unbiased, completely fair and balanced, and politically correct storyline that is considerate to the personal and civil rights of every WC fan, regardless of race, gender, orientation, and intelligence" it is translated literally. To any English reader, this is a big flashing signal that someone is being an obnoxious, angry jerk... but word for word in some other language? Maybe not.

The same is true whenever I see bits of Psych's writing leaking through in Saga. I don't know how much remains in the finished project, but what we see in the prologue and left in the character descriptions and so forth is more of that--far, far less mature than the rest of the project (and, again, he's writing his Wing Commander Aces Club characters from when he was fifteen--I feel like others on the project are being taken advantage of here, working to make an adventure for characters no one ever cared about).

 

[Aginor]

Maybe it is simple. Maybe it is also futile to post that here now, but whatever....

When the words "Nazi" ,"Hitler", or similar ones are written or spoken, most Germans - and I am including myself here - have a reflex action to jump and scream "Hey! It wasn't me, dammit!". The other one is "BAHH!! Dumb Americans, it is sooooo typical all of them think we are Nazis" The latter one is really stupid. A friend of mine spent some years in the US and really met some people who asked whether Hitler is still alive and how the Nazis live nowadays. So there are such people in the US. But really: Most of them just don't care about Nazis a lot, I think. Neither do they think Germans are Nazis.

That said: We can't do much against those reflex actions. I am upset if I see some characters of whom most happen to be white (I suppose because the one who wrote them writes what he knows, which means that most people around him are white as well) and someone's first thought apparently is to mention Nazis.
So I take a step back and say: "Look, there are people of other nationalities here, they can make jokes about Nazis and they do." And I don't care. I was upset about Ghost mentioning Nazis for some two or three seconds.
After that I was upset about people (now including me) discussing about Nazis and Germans AGAIN in a thread that should be about the voice work on Saga instead of another hypothetical "CIC vs. Saga" or "All vs. Nazis (Germans)-Thread".

Some people jump more, some people jump less when the reflex action strikes.
The guys at WingCenter discussed whether someone was being over-sensitive here, or maybe insensitive or whether the guys at the CIC hate Saga (which is a quite common assumption) and why. So everyone is jumping on some conclusion and assumes he is right, some are, some aren't and no one will change anything.

I don't know who is right, and, well.... I don't care either.

So while there may be some people here who hate Saga because
- they don't like Saga's style or story
- they don't like Freespace because it "killed the genre" and so hate every mod of Freespace as well
- they don't like some persons involved in the project because someone said something dumb years ago and didn't even mean it or because he sounds arrogant sometimes (or even the whole time)
- some of the Saga guys are German

there are still people here that want to play Saga because it is a Wing Commander mod or they actually like something or even everything they see there. Saga can't do everything right for everybody.

About the whole "Saga is not a mod it is promo for some people and the Saga guys don't actually like Wing Commander but want to become famous/get a job" or the even more ridiculous "Saga team are professionals who want to use it as a stepping stone and not fans" :
I can't speak for everyone (in fact I can't speak for anyone except for me), but I didn't join the project because I want to become famous. If I want to become famous I'll go to "Popstars" or some other casting show because I can actually sing a little. Despite the few articles and interviews in some magazines Saga is not really well-known. Some people even still think it is vaporware and the team isn't really doing anything. And yes Saga has taken a long time. Longer than any other mod I know (maybe Standoff I don't remember). So most of those who were interested in it have forgotten it years ago. Besides: Some of you may have noticed that the space shooter genre is basically dead since the last century. Not many care about a mod for a 10 year old game that is an homage to an even older game. So much for the "becoming famous"-part....
Also I don't need a job. I already have one. Saga is not a stepping stone for me in any way, I helped where I could (which turned out less than I originally wanted) because I wanted to play that game and help to make that happen.

About the writing: I honestly don't really care. I would hate it if the game was really racist or offensive to a wide range of people. But I can't see that at the moment. I like most of the story but when I think about it: I really want to kick some Kilrathi-ass. Also there is a mission editor so it can also be a sandbox to build missions with your favorite ships, enemies, and do your own story. That's what I want and I'm helping to make that real. Even if my work it is a rather small part at the moment because my skills and time are rather limited.

I don't even understand the whole "CIC vs. Saga"-drama fully. There are people who don't like Saga, there are people who like Saga. I'm thankful for those who like it.


just my 2 ct. (really, nobody told me to post this.)

 

[Bandit LOAF]

When the words "Nazi" ,"Hitler", or similar ones are written or spoken, most Germans - and I am including myself here - have a reflex action to jump and scream "Hey! It wasn't me, dammit!". The other one is "BAHH!! Dumb Americans, it is sooooo typical all of them think we are Nazis" The latter one is really stupid. A friend of mine spent some years in the US and really met some people who asked whether Hitler is still alive and how the Nazis live nowadays. So there are such people in the US. But really: Most of them just don't care about Nazis a lot, I think. Neither do they think Germans are Nazis.

It's very interesting to hear that viewpoint... I really don't think people (here, anyway) see Saga as being 'German'... or thinks that being German would be a bad thing in the first place (in reading up, I see it is mostly German team members now--but I really thought of it as Psych's project until very recently, from all the bragging he used to do). I looked up the thread itself on WingCenter and it's interesting and I think exactly the sort of misunderstanding I was thinking could happen. It's very funny seeing someone think of the CIC as being specifically American and being angry over the dumn American attitude in a post made... by someone from Argentina.

I am not sure if it is necessary, but I would like to make it clear that I don't hate Germans or German culture AT ALL. If that is the word on the street about me... well, it's just not true. I have made many great Wing Commander friends in Germany over the years and I love the dedication to the series that still exists there. In fact, a pet project of mine has been trying to convince EA to shop a Wing Commander novel series in Germany because of the fan base there... knowing that I would need to learn the language if that ever happens! (I was a fan of the country well before Wing Commander, too. Both my father and my sister are fluent German speakers and I've spent time in Munich, which is one of my favorite cities in the world.)

(To add some thought to the 'Nazi' discussion, just in general: I think there is a big difference in culture because of how the war impacted our countries differently. The United States was not affected by the war in the same way as Europe was--American soldiers fought in it... but for the population it was a distant, almost heroic thing. In GErmany and other European countries it is not a joking matter--it is something people who are still alive remember happening and which still shapes the world today. To American culture, though, Hitler was a just cartoon (often literally) who we knew did terrible things but whose actions most never directly experienced. To joke about the Nazis like Ghost would be 'edgy' humor, but it wouldn't be completely socially unacceptable. It's interesting to think about, anyway.)

So while there may be some people here who hate Saga because
- they don't like Saga's style or story
- they don't like Freespace because it "killed the genre" and so hate every mod of Freespace as well
- they don't like some persons involved in the project because someone said something dumb years ago and didn't even mean it or because he sounds arrogant sometimes (or even the whole time)
- some of the Saga guys are German

I think the third point is the most likely one--the project has been around for ten years now... a lot of the conflict comes from stupid things we said when we were only children. I am sure I fought with members of the Saga team when I was a teenager... but in 2011, I don't really hold them any ill will (and would hope the same is true).

I don't even understand the whole "CIC vs. Saga"-drama fully. There are people who don't like Saga, there are people who like Saga. I'm thankful for those who like it.

I want to play Saga! It looks like a great project. My big worry about the experience it is that the game will still play more like FreeSpace than WC... but I bet they have made great progress there. I think, especially, that the art looks cool now. For years it was so dark and then it looked just like Wing Commander III (which is cool, don't get me wrong)... but now with all the new textures it has a very distinctive voice.

 

[Dundradal]

I don't like the fact they put out "press releases" and give "interviews." Instead of doing that, it would be better to put out progress reports (there hasn't been one in years...what % of completed is the mod at? 5? 95?).

Don't get me wrong, I'm a wingnut through and through, but it seems like a lot of chest thumping with nothing to show. Every few months the ship models get updated, then every year voice actors are recast, and then missions "are almost done" or "work is just being started."

I'd love to try and play the mod, but I still have the experience of the prologue (which I never finished because I gave up trying to remap all the keys to WC keys instead of FS keys...which is something that the team really should do already..it's a WC mod after all....) which was more of a pain than joy to playthrough.

I wish them the best, but they've got to cut out the super-slick attempts at being more than they are (it's just a mod, not the next Bungie IP) and cyclical development style.

 

[FekLeyrTarg]

Perhabs it would be a good idea to open a new thread to discuss and clear misunderstandings between the different countries and societies as long as it doesn't turn into flaming. What do you think?

I'd also like to mention that there are still a few Nazis in Germany, the so-called Neo-Nazis. But they usually get arrested. Also, in both Germany and Austria there is a law which forbids any attempted reactivation of National Socialism. You might even be punished if you say any nazi parole, do the Hitlergruß (Hitler salute) and/or display, or draw the Hakenkreuz/Swastika there. In Austria it's called the "Wiederbetätigungsgesetz" ("Reactivation law" if you translate it literally).

Back in 2008, there was a tram driver in Vienna who shouted a nazi parole over the loudspeakers. He wasn't punished by the court because they were convinced that he didn't intend any reactivation and that it was just pure stupidity. But he was dismissed from the Wiener Linien.

Also, back in 2007, at least according to the german Wikipedia, all examples of an issue of a german Computergames magazine called "PC PowerPlay" were confiscated and destroyed because it included a trailer of a game called "Turning Point: Fall of Liberty" which shows the Hakenkreuz/Swastika on the Statue of Liberty. (I've just watched the trailer myself just confirm it and it is indeed there)

Well, anyways, I'm sure that WC Saga: The darkest dawn will be lots of fun. I already have lots of fun with the prologue and its Mods.

 

[Dundradal]

Perhabs it would be a good idea to open a new thread to discuss and clear misunderstandings between the different countries and societies as long as it doesn't turn into flaming. What do you think?

Hell to the no. This is a WC board and that thread will last 48 hours at the most.

If people have misunderstandings about other cultures and countries they should do the research themselves, just not here.

 

[gevatter Lars]

As I don't want to go to much into the nazi discussion just a little hint at Ghost. Please, please mark your post with a smilie or so next time, if you want to be sarkastic or make a joke.
I know they look stupid but I had the exact same "reflex" that Aginor discribed the first time I read your comment.

Anyway as its now clear that it was a joke lets move on.


As for the story about the shutting of Saga Loaf told...well I never heard of that before.
Thanks for preventing that from happening. As one of the guys who has been with the project pretty much from the beginning it would have saddned me.

That beeing sad I should know what is going on between Saga and CIC but frankly...I forgot the details ^_^

I know that we had quite some discussions that wheren't allways done in the "right" tone but thats mostly it.
I think most of the time it was about content (story) and the darkness of some images.

Speaking of the story. Yes Psych is writing most of it. I think Keldor and Tolwyn are also looking over it. Don't know how much Viper is still involed. Haven't heard of him for quite some time.
I have read parts of it and found them quite well written. Sure sometimes over the top but still funny to read.
Sure its not a "Jules Verne", "Asimov" or whatever you consider to be "high literature" but I doubt anyone aspects that, do you? ^_^


About the topic of "press releases", well don't takem to serious when it comes to the writting style.
Yes they might be a bit to serious for your taste but its also what seams to have caught the attention of some game mags.
The positive reviews they gave us also encuraged us, at least me, to go further.
When you do a longterm project like this that is something very importend.
And yes I am an attention whore. I just love it when people talk good about me. ^_^
Just kidding


Anyway Dundradal has pointed out something that falls into the "still feels like Freespace" department that Loaf also mentioned.

Well we had made some progress in this department but I will let the beta-testers be the judge of that.
I am allready to much used to how it currently plays.

From my point of view it feels good.
Combatspeed is pretty close to what I remember WC3.
Hit detection is more like WC4, so you realy have to aim instead of just shoot in the right direction but I consider that a good thing.
Missiles and guns have pretty much the righ damage and behavior. Still think the
Thunderbold could be more powerfull but as a Thud fan it just can't have enough firepower. ^_^

As you might have seen in the trailers there where some cap battles and they are awesome.
Capships might feel a bit more powerfull then in WC3 as the turrets finaly have a trained gunner crew and the shields are now working better then in the prologue.
We even tried to make the turrets less accurate to make them more WC3 like.
Anyway, as I said, that is my perspective and I hope the beta testers will confirm them or tell us what we need to tweak.


So whats left...progress, yes good topic.
Personaly I try to avoid it ^_^
Not the progress but doing the list.

I don't have the complete overview but ship and fighter models are in progress of final checks for errors. If none are found they are done.

CGI-cutscenes: Except for one they are all in the final stages
CGI-briefings: Just finished the briefingroom, character animation will start as soon as the voiceovers are all recorded.

Music: I don't realy know.

Voiceovers: Well this is the "we need actors" topic so lets guess the status ^_^

 

[Dundradal]

About the topic of "press releases", well don't takem to serious when it comes to the writting style.
Yes they might be a bit to serious for your taste but its also what seams to have caught the attention of some game mags.
The positive reviews they gave us also encuraged us, at least me, to go further.
When you do a longterm project like this that is something very importend.
And yes I am an attention whore. I just love it when people talk good about me. ^_^
Just kidding

That's the thing. Who cares about gaming magazines attention? When Standoff came out there wasn't a press release sent out to every gaming magazine in the world. Saga is no different and should remember that it's the WC community that gave them the ability to do what they are doing.

Instead of appealing to the media, how about the WC community? The Saga CZ here is a joke and hasn't been touched by the team in years...now that says something to me. Why would you not be appealing to the fanbase that gave you your start? Instead it's always trying to pander to magazines and "media." That's not a good thing. From what you've written it actually seems this is exactly what you want, media attention, and if some WC fans find out about that's a nice consequence. It shouldn't work that way. I know at one point it didn't, but that's certainly how it seems now.

I'm well aware of the importance of it with long-term projects. I worked with Standoff in their last 3 years of work and have been working on the longest of long-term projects in WCPedia. The closest thing I do to a press release is say "hey I finished uploading this...check it out!" Not writing pretentious "press releases" trying to get attention.

Anyway Dundradal has pointed out something that falls into the "still feels like Freespace" department that Loaf also mentioned.

Well we had made some progress in this department but I will let the beta-testers be the judge of that.
I am allready to much used to how it currently plays.

That sounds like a way of saying "ahh well we didn't change it and we are used to how it is now so tough..." If I have to spend another 2 hours remapping the keys I can tell you I won't be playing Saga very long. It's a WC mod and should use WC keys. It's stupid not to.

So whats left...progress, yes good topic.
Personaly I try to avoid it ^_^
Not the progress but doing the list.

If you have to avoid doing a list that tells me there is still a lot of work to be done.

I don't have the complete overview but ship and fighter models are in progress of final checks for errors. If none are found they are done.

Until the textures are redesigned in 6 months.....haven't the fighter and ship models been done for years?

CGI-cutscenes: Except for one they are all in the final stages
CGI-briefings: Just finished the briefingroom, character animation will start as soon as the voiceovers are all recorded.

Music: I don't realy know.

Voiceovers: Well this is the "we need actors" topic so lets guess the status ^_^

Again, this sounds like art maybe done but otherwise everything else is still a work in progress. These are reasons why the "press releases" are even more annoying. What are they announcing that once again something needs to be redone?

I'm not trying to be a dick here, but pointing out why this sentiment exists with some of us. I hope the best for the project, but you've got to realize how dumb this all looks.

We are all waiting to play Saga, but you have to remember that the older wingnuts around here have watched this from the beginning and have watched this cyclical development for a decade now....

 

[gevatter Lars]

Game mags
Except for one mag where we know a fellower pretty good we haven't contacted any of the ones that reported about us. At least not to my knowledge.
But thanks to this reports people learned not only about Saga but also about Standoff and I think even the CIC itself was mentioned.
Also thanks to that friends of mine rediscovered WingCommander as a game they would like to play again. Now more people I know talk about WC then before.
Thats, in my opinion, a good thing for the community overall, not just for us.

So is it realy a bad thing if these mags write little reports about us or WC in general?
I don't think so.

As for the way the press releases are written. Yes they might read a bit strange to people who are wingnuts.
My experiance with people who don't know about the mod or WC in general was a bit different.
You could say it was positiv in the way that they said something like "That dosn't sound like a fan project but something bigger"
And again they showed the page to others.

Maybe looking at it from that side you might understand why at least I am totaly okay with the way we try to promote ourself and WC in general.
There are so many people who simply forgot about WC but when they read about it in a mag its back.
I just recently had a co-worker of mine, who knows that I am a big fan of old games, came to me and said "Hey there is a WC searching for beta-testers"
The guy is only playing shooters now a days but then, while talking with me about Saga, he remembered that he also played WC3+4 and how much fun that was.

I think we can all agree that if we want a new WC we need a much bigger knowledge base of WC then it is now.
Why now promote it a bit with the Mods or all the other fine stuff thats done here.
Problem is except for the wingnuts that come here regularly no one else will ever notice.
At least that is my personal take on the matter.


The board at the CIC
Yes its been pretty quiet, I agree.
I think its been a left over habbit from the time when terms where not so friendly and we just stepped back from posting there.
As I allready stated there was quite some bad blood in the past but maybe its time for a new try.


Remapping of keys
I don't know if and where on the "to-do" list this is. I will try to get an answere to this.
As for my statement, no its just that I am used to it.

If you have to avoid doing a list that tells me there is still a lot of work to be done.

Thats right.
As you have noticed in the list there isn't a single point that is done.
I didn't list the missions as it should be clear that they only will be done after the testing.

About the models. Yes and no.
We still find errors in some of them. Before Scooby joined the team models where done by so many different people that it was all quite a mess.
Scooby, Keldor and Starman (back from the grave) are working hard to get them through the trails to finalise them.
As for us redoing things every 6 month...as Loaf stated it was worth it.
I don't know him pretty well but I think if he says that we have finaly archived a look that can stand on its own, it was worth it.

I'm not trying to be a dick here, but pointing out why this sentiment exists with some of us. I hope the best for the project, but you've got to realize how dumb this all looks.

We are all waiting to play Saga, but you have to remember that the older wingnuts around here have watched this from the beginning and have watched this cyclical development for a decade now....

I hope I could shed some light on why I think there is some sense behind what we do.
I think we have to do some cleanup. I have quite little time but I guess I will try to be more regular at our board here.

I will also try to get a "progress" status for the different things running...Tolwyn will kill me for that ^_^

 

[Bandit LOAF]

I would not be so harsh, but Dundradal is getting at something--there is definitely a difference in how the CIC (and Standoff) want to be seen by the world compared to how Saga is doing it. We have always worn it as a badge of honor that we don't care about what anyone else thinks--as long as we're serving hardcore Wing Commander fans, no one else matters. I do stand by that ideology and I agree that it's hard to imagine doing a fan project any differently.

So there's an initial level of mistrust seeing Saga with a dedicated PR campaign that seems, to our eyes, to be aimed at getting attention for the team, puffing them up instead of people trying to honor Wing Commander. On one level it seems... well, silly. Prideful and unpleasant, especially compared to the grace that Standoff put out their mod without ever wanting any credit.

But there's more to it than that--it's somewhat dangerous and I don't think they stop to think about that... and since they're awful at communicating with the Wing Commander community, it's not the sort of thing we ever get a chance to talk about. A lot of what we do today, from releasing Wing Commander I to posting Academy episodes to putting out an entire original Wing Commander game to a dozen other things each year is because we've very carefully grown good will with Electronic Arts... and their rule of thumb is basically they will work with us as long as it's low key.

I talked about the Privateer producer wanting to shut down Saga a few years ago which is a good example of what I worry about happening when the project is released, but let me give you a better example of how these things fall apart. If you recall a few years back we got to go to Mythic, archive all of the Origin material and have a grand old time. Neat Wing Commander and Origin stuff preserved for everyone... and we were going to be able to put it out, as long as it wasn't budget information. Massive libraries of documentation, source code for one of the FMV games, original renderings and so on.

But then we got home and one of the people we'd invited to help us decided it would be great press for himself to get our "story" out there immediately, before we'd even unpacked our equipment... and he notified all the news sites with a pre-written "story" about what we'd done and suddenly we were on Slashdot Games and Destrutoid and wherever. EA felt, rightly, like we'd betrayed their trust to promote ourselves... and we were told our involvement with the material was over. That *sucked*, and it took a lot of time to rebuild that relationship.

So that's the endgame I worry about for a fan mod that's trying to sell itself to the professionals--they'll get the hammer as soon as there's something released... and we, as the community (even if we're the community they hate, we still *are* the Wing Commander community) are the ones who have to deal with an ill-conceived crusade on the part of a million angry Kotakuers who will know the story only as "EA SHUT DOWN A FREESPACE MOD, THEY ARE EVIL"... which is, I hope, the exact opposite message a fan project wants to get out there (and that's not to mention how that outcome would hurt all the other projects and material that the folks in charge of the rights would see as part of the problem).

 

[Bandit LOAF]

... I just reread that and I should be clear: I don't think the solution is to suddenly do everything differently. Instead I think it's to work out a unified message that you push about 'why' you're doing the mod--which I would say is because you want Electronic Arts to return to Wing Commander. Keep up the PR campaign, but make sure it's absolutely clear in interviews and press releases and all that play stuff that it's a tribute rather than anything else and that your big dream is to see another Wing Commander game made.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

Hehehe -- one more thought: if you're really worried about someone bringing up Space Nazis, maybe don't post all your news with a "Tolwyn" avatar?

 

[gevatter Lars]

Okay before I go into the details. I think I have to make a thing clear.
I am currently speaking for myself and how I see what we do.
I think I didn't made that clear. I haven't talked about this with the team but I think everyone can speak for themself.


Now lets see about what is said.

If the question is if I am doing this to get myself somewhere?
No. I doubt that I would even qualify as a trainee in any real company, so thats not it. I can't deny that I played with the thought and I learned a lot with the project but no.
I still wish I could have done more for this project to bring it closer to be a full WC game. In that case do a lot lot lot more animations and cutscenes. It still kinda angeres me cause for me that was something realy importend to the games.

If I want more attention to the game, hell yah. I still have hopes that we find some, at least, semi professional CGI dude that can do miricals to get all the stuff done to make all the CGI to deliver an experiance that comes close to the original.
Yes its totaly off the scale for a fan project but to me its the point between just giving in or trying to go further, creating something that deserves the title of WC.
In that way I think its good to let people know about it. To attract new tallents.


As for the articles I have read..or at least could understand. I don't speak russian for example..they all where just reporting about us as a mod.
Saying "Hey people there is a WC mod in progress, you might want to take a look".
Sometimes we where not even the in the focus but WC in general. In these the CIC and Standoff where also mentioned to give a complete picture about who is still interested in the frenchise.
So while we get some attention it was never more that we just beeing another mod in the sea of mods (not WC mods but in general).
I think the only time when there was a bit more in it was when a Mac mag wrote something like "Finaly a game you can play on the Mac" but even there it was mentioned that its just a mod.

So I think there is a bit to much hype around our articles. Sure there are some and I don't deny that it makes me happy but its not like we try to steal WC from EA.
Saga or at least I am still aiming for a good WC experiance for you, for me and for my friends.

Hehehe -- one more thought: if you're really worried about someone bringing up Space Nazis, maybe don't post all your news with a "Tolwyn" avatar?

^___^

 

[Bandit LOAF]

No. I doubt that I would even qualify as a trainee in any real company, so thats not it. I can't deny that I played with the thought and I learned a lot with the project but no.

I guess it is hard to explain... it's not so much that I think the Saga team is necessarily begging for a job as it is that that's how the tone is coming across to the general population? I'm not saying the intent is there... just that when you think you are making the process look seamless and professional it's actually coming across differently to other people.

Let me give you an example: one of your team members who likely wants to remain anonymous sent me a PM this afternoon that said (among other things) no I'm all wrong about Tolwyn, he's not the PR person... he's the PRODUCER! Sure enough, there it is on his Twitter feed. Now, I don't know if that's actually ego or if maybe it's a bad translation or what... but it comes across as patently ridiculous to anyone who knows what a real producer does. The immediate reaction on the part of this reader, anyway, is that he must have chosen that title because it soudns impressive... and it's going to get him laughed at, which despite what he probably thinks isn't something we want for him.

Now all that said, wanting to work in the industry isn't at all a bad thing. Lots of people work on mods and want to go on to the industry... how could they not? I have worked in the industry. In fact, we've helped a number of great and dedicated fans do just that over the years but I can tell you right now that if that's what your people want then you're doing it wrong. If I were hiring a 3D artist or a writer or a coder or a... producer... based on a fan mod then what I want to see is the process, not that they can wrap everything up so that we don't see the lines. A recruiter is looking for three major things: talent (of course), ability to work through to a goal (not even a deadline specifically, guys who are on year eleven of your project) and above all staying power (lots of people can build an amazing 3D model... fewer can build fifty still-good models on a schedule).

I still wish I could have done more for this project to bring it closer to be a full WC game. In that case do a lot lot lot more animations and cutscenes. It still kinda angeres me cause for me that was something realy importend to the games.

Well... I guess the question I have is: why aren't we helping each other? From our perspective, Saga has become this mysterious thing that issues formal announcements of things... when that's not how we operate, and there's no opportunity for collaboration there. WHy not let us know what kind of artists you need to improve the game so we can help you find them, instead of just announcing flowery information about cruisers?

Anyway, I apologize if it seems like I'm coming down on you in all this... the fact is that I would like us all to be friends, I'm very glad you're willing to be here talking about this and I would be happy to help Saga with its goals--I just want to know what those are. I think it's a very big and positive step you're taking telling us more about what's going on with the project here, and I am sincerely grateful for that. Let me know what I can do to help, what I can do to heal old wounds.

I mean, no false modosty--the people are are the Wing Commander experts. One-way communication with such a group means turning out a lesser product.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

I wanted to add (sorry for typos, on phone, just realized this) that this shouldn't be a one way street--you guys should be critical of the CIC, let us know how to improve to help everyone with WC.

 

[gevatter Lars]

just that when you think you are making the process look seamless and professional it's actually coming across differently to other people.

I still have difficultys to understand it. Looking at the latest ship report, for example, it tells the reader where we got the idea from and how it is compared to the Kilrathi light cruiser.
Then some renderimages, then some fun fluff about it. More ingame images.

I don't quite see how this is a problem. Its just some information and images aranged to be pleasent to the eye.
I wouldn't like it any other way. Just some postings in a forum is a nice addition but my sense of "order" preferes a clear structure of the news.
PS: I assumed you where talking about the new on our website about the ships, characters and stuff.

I try to remember how Standoff did it but IIRC they also had similar news posts on their page didn't they?


As about Tolwyns position. I refere to it as the "asskicker of lazy butts" aka getting us to work, coordinating who does what and in general trying to keep an overview off all things. He also spends quite some money so I can send him CGI stuff to render on one of his extra PCs.
He is also doing the news when he has the time left and is helping me out with CGI as mentioned.
One could say that he is the closest thing to a producer we have and definitly the projects leader.

Anyway, I apologize if it seems like I'm coming down on you in all this

Not at all. Its quite interesting. I think we have never talked about this and I guess I start to see what caused the problems in the past. That still dosn't mean that I have big ideas how to solve it but its a start.

I think for now I have to let everything sink into my brain. As my schedule is pretty full it could take some time till I get back with anything but I consider this day to be a good one.
I also have to talk to the others about it.

Oh and on a side note, it seams that our little conversation is also received in a positive way over at the WingCenter.

 

[Dundradal]

I still have difficultys to understand it. Looking at the latest ship report, for example, it tells the reader where we got the idea from and how it is compared to the Kilrathi light cruiser.
Then some renderimages, then some fun fluff about it. More ingame images.

Things like this....

Interview on the Red Carpet

In a sensational move, guys from GameOverCast have somehow managed to secure exclusive access for a lengthy chinwag with our very own Andreas Schmitt, to chat about all things regarding Wing Commander Saga. An mp3 of the chitchat is available for free on the GameOverCast website! Don't miss it.

Stuff like that comes off as dumb. Red Carpet? I'm not sure if it is an attempt at humor or not but to anyone else it's sleazy-sounding.

We are just saying that stuff like that makes it seem that you aren't a WC mod and are some kind of project of self-promotion.

 

[LeHah]

I still have difficultys to understand it.

Let me play Devil's Advocate for a moment. I'm not sure if this is in-line with what LOAF and Dundradal are saying here, so this may be more for myself...

Put aside the fact you don't understand people's viewpoints: who are you (as a team) making this game for if you know the biggest fan hub for Wing Commander is wary of how you conduct yourselves?

 

[Aginor]

Well, LeHah, before I answer you:
I don't want to bash the CIC here, as I said before i don't see much reason for any CIC vs. Saga discussions and I'm glad that others agree here.

That said, you say "the CIC is wary...." etc. What does that mean? What is the CIC? Who represents the CIC? I know that there are quite a lot of Wing Commander fans which are active here in the CIC forums that also like Saga. There are some who don't and there have been some who weren't in the past butl et's put that aside:

We already talked about personal problems between people inside the WC community.
Some Saga fans always had the impression that "the CIC" is the ones who do the news updates and so on, the "CIC crew and admins" which is Loaf, ChrisReid etc. but not the Community as a whole.

Ok, let's start with a mainly fictional paragraph, to answer your question:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Imagine Loaf or ChrisReid or, let's say all the CIC staff HATE Saga. There would be no or no good news about Saga on the front page, People who like Saga would be treated badly in the forums etc.
Well, most of those people wouldn't stop posting on the CIC boards, because there are other great fan projects here such as Standoff, UE, the WCPedia, Paper Commander and all the mods done in the last few years here. But they wouldn't talk about Saga anymore because they know the leaders of the CIC hate it.
That would not be a huge problem, but the Saga team has to make the decision to ignore "the CIC's" opinion (which then wouldn't represent the people who would play Saga anyway).
That's just natural. But that doesn't mean they turn their back to the Community but to the people "leading" it at the CIC.

So that would be a reason to ignore the biggest fan hub despite the many Saga fans that post there regularly. The Saga team would just ignore some people because they just are negative anyway. If they are the leaders of the community.... well,duh. What would you do? Change everything because 4-6 important members of the community hate it while you receive a lot of positive feedback from a lot of other people?

END
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Now, we know that what I just described isn't the case. I don't think that ChrisReid or LOAF hate Saga. But some fans and even some people in the Saga team and the rest of the community (including myself when I joined in.... dunno... 2003?) thought that was the case! Maybe it even was at some time during the last ten years!

And that assumption puts everything in a bad light because everybody waits for "the CIC" to say something about Saga and then look through it and find something that sounds negative or interpret it in a negative way and then say "MAN!!! I knew it, the CIC hates Saga!" and move on. Such things go so far that when the CIC says something positive people would go like "they just say this so the Saga fans don't leave the CIC, they hate Saga anyway."
Such things just poison the mood in the community. It happens in many communities. Ask the Star Wars or Star Trek guys. There have been flame wars in the forums and people beating each other at cons. There have been projects that suddenly aren't mentioned anymore on community sites and such things. Just because of dumb assumptions, some dumb words on both sides and such behavior like that which I described.


I want to say something positive now: I think everybody calmed down a bit now.
I think we should try to talk to each other a bit more. That would solve a lot of problems.
And I see some improvements already in the last few years and my personal opinion is that we can find a way to make even more improvements here.

Don't get me wrong. There will still be people who don't like Saga and people who like it. That's just the way it is. The Saga team has to accept that. And so does everybody in the community.

EDITED to kill some typos....

 

[Dundradal]

That post completely ignores everything we were mentioning. It also shows that some people over there must be stuck in 1999 still.

No one hates Saga. I have some reservations on how the mod is actually being made for (as LeHah stated) since it doesn't seem that it is for the WC community anymore.

This community is fine. It's not going to be torn apart by something like this (which isn't even an issue).

There are no problems and we don't need to talk more. Here's the thing. When LOAF and I posted we were posting legit issues we saw with what has been coming out. Don't talk about "Red Carpet" interviews when you are casting voice actors for the SEVENTH YEAR IN A ROW! It's stupid. No one has a problem with a WC mod, people have problems with stupid self-promoting crap.

Anyways this is cut short because I'm late for my appointment for an hour's worth of traffic today.