Viable Ship Types

[Wendy]

Well, I have to say, with ALL the engine and reactor enhancements, it behaves JUST LIKE A TRUCK and you can shoot at it like it's a tank. You just might make it home alive. But you're gonna have a hard time earning money with it.

It's a tank. I took out a Gothri by ramming it. I don't mean brush it with the shields, I mean a dead on BASH. . .and I kept on bashing. I never got to hull damage, though I did need to buy more armour when I got to Perry. Granted it was a one on one assault, but hey, what more do you want?

As for speed, I guess it's fair. 800 is more than I would have hoped for. I didn't like the way it's out-classed there, but with the price at 125K, you can't ask for too much more. EXCEPT room for a tractor-beam, WITH missiles and 25 more cargo. Yes, it's a hunter, but it's the first craft you can afford after your trusty Tarsus.

While you're learning to shoot, you should STILL be able to haul SOME cargo. 50 units ain't paying your living and unless you start acting as a hired gun, it's not what I'd turn to. Especially what the upgrades cost to make it a viable ship. But if I could have a tractor beam on the turret, I'd consider it. I don't like that step down. It really cripples you as a game player. You can't tractor in cargo if you have missiles. How not fair can you get?

I'll continue to try it, because I can afford to try it, but there's no way I'm going on Campaign Missions with it. I think it'll get in the way, more than it'll help. To be honest, I'd use the Tarsus WITHOUT cloaking before I'll use the Orion. At least you can turn in that -- and haul stuff -- and shoot missiles -- and tractor in pilots and cargo. If I had to choose, I'd leave the Orion alone. Yes, it's safer. But it'll cost you more in earnings than it will make. NOT VIABLE.

And as for my remaining Campaign Missions, I'll take my Centurion, thank you.

I suppose, to be fair, the Orion IS viable -- at least as a task-force command ship -- but it sure doesn't make it as a ship for a privateer.

Neither, for that matter, does the Centurion. No cargo space. Privateers are supposed to be raiders of the opposing forces. They cut the supply lines and profit by it.

Speaking of which, when am I going to be able to DISABLE a ship and tractor it to base as a prize of war? Now THAT would make the Orion attractive. If I could use it to disable enemy fighters, and take the fighters as prizes of war and either sell them or repair them and fly them, THAT would make me WANT an Orion.

As it stands, I think you need a tractor slot AND missile launcher Not to mention 25 more cargo space. That or drop the asking price 25K

 

[hellcatv]

I thought you could get 25 xtra space with the cargo enhancements

BTW which fixer are you at now? Good ole Lynchman?

Well, I have to say, with ALL the engine and reactor enhancements, it behaves JUST LIKE A TRUCK and you can shoot at it like it's a tank. You just might make it home alive. But you're gonna have a hard time earning money with it.

It's a tank. I took out a Gothri by ramming it. I don't mean brush it with the shields, I mean a dead on BASH. . .and I kept on bashing. I never got to hull damage, though I did need to buy more armour when I got to Perry. Granted it was a one on one assault, but hey, what more do you want?

As for speed, I guess it's fair. 800 is more than I would have hoped for. I didn't like the way it's out-classed there, but with the price at 125K, you can't ask for too much more. EXCEPT room for a tractor-beam, WITH missiles and 25 more cargo. Yes, it's a hunter, but it's the first craft you can afford after your trusty Tarsus.

While you're learning to shoot, you should STILL be able to haul SOME cargo. 50 units ain't paying your living and unless you start acting as a hired gun, it's not what I'd turn to. Especially what the upgrades cost to make it a viable ship.

I'll continue to try it, because I can afford to try it, but there's no way I'm going on Campaign Missions with it. I think it'll get in the way, more than it'll help. To be honest, I'd use the Tarsus WITHOUT cloaking before I'll use the Orion. At least you can turn in that. If I had to choose, I'd leave it alone.

And as for my remaining Campaign Missions, I'll take my Centurion, thank you.

I suppose it's viable, at least as a task-force command ship, but it sure doesn't make it as a ship for a privateer. Neither, for that matter, does the Centurion. No cargo space. Privateers are supposed to be raiders of the opposing forces. They cut the supply lines and profit by it. Hey, when am I going to be able to DISABLE a ship? Now THAT would make the Orion attractive. If I could use it to disable an enemy fighter, and take the fighters as prizes of war and either sell them or repair them and fly them, THAT would make me WANT an Orion.

As it stands, I think you need a tractor slot, a missile launcher and 25 more cargo space. That or drop the asking price 25K

 

[Wendy]

I thought you could get 25 xtra space with the cargo enhancements

BTW which fixer are you at now? Good ole Lynchman?

Heck, I put the campaign on hold to get a Centurion to do the escort missions I'm going to need to do later. I'll be going to Oxford next.

I TRIED to get the cargo add-on, but it wouldn't let me buy it. I tried getting it before I got anything else. Then I tricked it out and tried again. Then I sold the repair Droid and all the repair systems to be sure there was the space. NO DICE. It won't let me buy the cargo expansion.

Whoops!
NOT Oxford, I go to New Constantinople next. Whell whadda y' know. . .I coulda. . .

 

[hellcatv]

probably a bug with the upgrade system---the orion was the one unit I didn't test wrt the cargo expansion

it works on the gal and tarsus, right?

BTW I should fix the price of rescue missions... 1000000 credits is way too much.

is the rescue the only current mission that pays so much? cus I thought I really cut down on those

 

[Wendy]

probably a bug with the upgrade system---the orion was the one unit I didn't test wrt the cargo expansion

it works on the gal and tarsus, right?

BTW I should fix the price of rescue missions... 1000000 credits is way too much.

is the rescue the only current mission that pays so much? cus I thought I really cut down on those

Works on Galaxy and Tarsus. It doesn't work on the Orion because it adds 50 additional cargo, not 25. You need another Cargo expansion pack to make it work with the Orion.

Hey, I got mine already. Fix away. LOL

The rescue missions are paying 16K to the big ones worth 1,000,000 to 5,000,000 and it depends on how long you've been playing it this time, how far you have to go, and how many bandits you have to run from. At one point I got paid over 5,000,000.

I figure it was because:
A: I was rescuing Kilrathi
B: There were 15 or more Confeds attacking.
C: I had to do 5 jumps to reach him and I was in Kilrathi airspace and had to deliver my "guest" to a neutral Kilrathi home world.

 

[hellcatv]

This could well be true
but both you and I know that 5 mil is ridiculous--Illl have to look at the pricing code--it used to be like this for otoher mission types I think...

anyhow thanks for finding that one--and it's still a lot of woork--but maybe only worth 40 or 50k

Works on Galaxy and Tarsus. It doesn't work on the Orion because it adds 50 additional cargo, not 25. You need another Cargo expansion pack to make it work with the Orion.

Hey, I got mine already. Fix away. LOL

The rescue missions are paying 16K to the big ones worth 1,000,000 to 5,000,000 and it depends on how long you've been playing it this time, how far you have to go, and how many bandits you have to run from. At one point I got paid over 5,000,000.

I figure it was because:
A: I was rescuing Kilrathi
B: There were 15 or more Confeds attacking.
C: I had to do 5 jumps to reach him and I was in Kilrathi airspace and had to deliver my "guest" to a neutral Kilrathi home world.

 

[Wendy]

is the rescue the only current mission that pays so much? cus I thought I really cut down on those

Umm, I think so. I looked at the bounty missions and while I to hire out to do them, I barely make anything because I have to hire wingmen. The only ones I make money on are the short and sweet bounty runs, patrols, and of course, the long range rescues.

Again, it all has to do with how many craft are attacking them, and I don't see them until I've been in the game for an hour or more. I literally have to run three or four missions before the rescue missions become "rewarding"

I think it has something to do with the way the guys attacking them follow you all the way home and are sitting there waiting for you to take off again. It's a good thing I'm friendly with Confeds and Militia again. Yeesh, it was hairy for a while.

 

[Wendy]

This could well be true
but both you and I know that 5 mil is ridiculous--Illl have to look at the pricing code--it used to be like this for otoher mission types I think...

anyhow thanks for finding that one--and it's still a lot of woork--but maybe only worth 40 or 50k

Yeah it WAS ridiculous. But it enabled me to be able to check out all of the craft. I like the improvements to the Tarsus and the Galaxy. Even the ORion. Need better art there. Not that I can do it, mind you, but it looks rather lumpish. Everything else looks so. . .SWEET. But the ORion looks like it needs a bit more detail or something.

 

[Wendy]

Looked at my player log.
I ran into AT LEAST 5 Kilrathi at EVERY Jump point. Add to those 5 the pirates, or the Retros and you have quite the force trying to keep you from completing the mission. It almost makes sense for the big bucks. HOWEVER, from a fiction standpoint, it sucks.

It makes it sound like they'll target specific pilots offering them different amounts. It's a standard comm terminal in the escape pod, right? So it should be a generic S.O.S. not a pilot specific S.O.S. Call it 6 or 7K for the first fighter IN SYSTEM and add 1,000 cr. to a maximum of 50K cr. for 5 jumps and 15 or 20 enemy fighters.

Another factor is faction. The system doesn't seem to take into account the faction shooting at the pilot and who you're friendly with. When I ran one Million plus run, and I LOVED that run, I had to rescue a Kilrathi in CMF-A or whatever that psychadelic system is, and the attacking craft were 15 Confeds. I had a rating of +77 for the faction relations with the confeds and a -100 with the Kilrathi. But it looked at the fact that I was rescuing PILOT not Kilrathi Pilot, against 15 attacking craft, not 15 of my allies. It was a cake walk.

 

[Wendy]

Nah, just can't seem to get the Orion out of it's own way in combat with more than one opponent. If you fly this crate, you need soneone on your wing or you're dead.

Look, I KNOW I'm not all that great of a pilot. Heck, I'll run if and when I can, but I can at least make a go of it against three or four pirates or Kilrathi in the Tarsus, the Galaxy and the Centurion, but when I fly the Orion I'm dead meat. Sorry, for me the ship is NOT VIABLE.

 

[MamiyaOtaru]

As it is, I agree. That's why I've been asking for feedback on how to improve it, and yours is welcome. Bigger ships just get eaten alive in this game.. I can take out a Paradigm in a Centurion or Demon no problem (just patience).

I assume you've tried it with beta 9 and the thicker shields? They aren't an order of magnitude thicker, but level fives should be 2.5 times as thick. Should help some, but still, big ships are just dead. The galaxy at least has those two turrets covering all the angles.

Recently, tractors were mounted in the turrets. I'm not sure what the current status is with the AI handling the tractor beam for you. If it can, that will at least let you use the missile rack for missiles

I wouldn't mind bumping up cargo space some, and making it a tiny bit less like a truck. It will always be one I guess, but it is a bit much right now..

 

[Wendy]

I assume you've tried it with beta 9 and the thicker shields? They aren't an order of magnitude thicker, but level fives should be 2.5 times as thick. Should help some, but still, big ships are just dead. The galaxy at least has those two turrets covering all the angles.

.009 as current as it can get. Ask HellcatV

Actually, I think it has something to do with rates at which the ships turn. I really can't explain it. All I can tell you is what I feel during the ride.

In the Galaxy the ship "FEELS" Nimble, almost limbre with the engine addons. It WANTS to engage. While somewhat reluctant, the Tarsus ALSO has that up and at-'em feel.

The Orion, well, it's like a bus. LITERALLY. Turn right, and sometime this week. . .

Against a lone Gothri, it was OKAY. Granted I had to ram the damned thing to finally kill it as the guns alone weren't enough, but I got the job done.

Against anything more limbre or more than one and it's WAY out-classed.

Recently, tractors were mounted in the turrets. I'm not sure what the current status is with the AI handling the tractor beam for you. If it can, that will at least let you use the missile rack for missiles

Umm. . .are they already ON the turrets? I'll have to look. Admittedly I have to read the turret thread, Right now I'm treating my turrets like I did in the original game. There're there and forget them.

I wouldn't mind bumping up cargo space some, and making it a tiny bit less like a truck. It will always be one I guess, but it is a bit much right now..

I'll be honest, with the way it handles in a fight, you need a LOT more cargo. I mean, I got creamed everytime there was more than one. I spent a couple of hours with the Orion and bailed. I kept getting creamed. It's F-4 syndrome. Given enough thrust, even a brick will fly. The orion is a BRICK. A SLOW brick.

In a straight line it's faster than the Tarsus, but why the heck can I take on four Pirates in the Tarsus, AND the Galaxy and come out with dings in the armour, but no need for other repairs. Yet, if I have the Orion, I'm DEAD. I don't get it.

You need a wingman just to go to the local ag. planet for quart of milk!

Sorry, I wish I knew what to tell you. For something so box-like IF it had defenses, i.e. sufficient fire-power, or if it had LOADS of cargo space. I mean, like 500 or more, but a bit? Nah, not worth the effort.

I went heavy on shields and manoeuvring. I beefed the engines up as high as I could with that in mind. I left off the repair droids so that I had the room. It just got hammered. You get three fighters coming at you and you're dead inside of a few minutes. Your turret is in back. Your 2 guns are in front. you're engaging 1 from the front and the other two take you out at the sides. YOU ARE DONE.

Top and bottom turrets? But if you do, the Canonites will eat you alive. And want to bet they all fly Centurions?

It isn't viable. Not as it sits. I REALLY tried. Maybe it's my skills in the cockpit. I mean, I have close to 40 hours now with .009 and I only have something like 25 kills. I really don't try to duke it out, I just go for the in-and-out types of missions. I KNOW I'm not a crack pilot. In WW-II I would have been relegated to the DC-3 The Gooney Bird. A Twin Engine Cargo Plane. No guns. Just cargo. The only guns on it were if you opened the side door on the right and shot out.

 

[MamiyaOtaru]

Tha max turn rate is straight from the original (where it wasn't really viable either). But is your main complaint the max degrees per second, or the rotational inertia? The thing is such a brick, it takes some time to start turning in the first place. If the rotational inertia were reduced, would it's max degrees per second be OK? Heck, I'd like to reduce its inertia period a fair amount. That would let you change directions a bit quicker and maybe dodge a shot or two..

I wouldn't ignore turrets altogether, they can shoot and occasionally hit things Turrets are a work in progress, but you should be able to get rear turrets mounting something other than lasers soon.

More cargo: we are quibbling over it in chat right now lol.

 

[Wendy]

Tha max turn rate is straight from the original (where it wasn't really viable either). But is your main complaint the max degrees per second, or the rotational inertia? The thing is such a brick, it takes some time to start turning in the first place. If the rotational inertia were reduced, would it's max degrees per second be OK? Heck, I'd like to reduce its inertia period a fair amount. That would let you change directions a bit quicker and maybe dodge a shot or two..

I wouldn't ignore turrets altogether, they can shoot and occasionally hit things Turrets are a work in progress, but you should be able to get rear turrets mounting something other than lasers soon.

More cargo: we are quibbling over it in chat right now lol.

Can you make it handle more like the Tarsus? That MIGHT work. Imagine the Tarsus with the shields and speed of the Orion. But with half the cargo space. Fair's fair. If you could engage without KNOWING you're dead meat. . .

Cargo. . .I can't ever see myself flying a Drayman, and with the way three or more fighters eat me alive in the Orion, I might as well be in a Drayman. I mean, it's honestly like me taking on a lone Drayman. I just stand off and fire. Well, in a dog-fight, flying the Orion, I NEVER see the other two, I just FEEL them. My shields go to nill and I'm dead in no-time-flat. There has GOT to be a way to either hold the side attacks or else relegate it to flying with a wing. It's useless alone.

I guess it's the whole concept of the bird itself. The Tarsus is a cargo carrier. You don't go looking for dog-fights with it.

Same with the Galaxy.

The Orion is a HEAVY Hunter. A HEAVY Fighter, if you will. Well, it's supposed to be. But it isn't.

The Centurion is a Medium Hunter. It's actually a Medium Weight fighter, if you compare it with the Gothri. Now THAT is the heavy weight.

THAT'S how you need to look at the Orion. If you DO make it like that, you should add two more guns up front plus one more missile rack under the nose and charge 250 to 300K. THEN you have a TRUE heavy fighter/hunter. Right now you have a MANNED TARGET.

 

[JKeefe]

Tha max turn rate is straight from the original (where it wasn't really viable either).

Exactly what I was thinking. How much like the original do the devs want the remake to be. If close to 100%, the Orion sucked bigtime in the original, and it sounds like it still does now. I could tear them up in a Tarsus because they were big and slow.

If you're trying to give every ship it's niche ( and I think that is a cool thing to attempt to do), then the Orion needs work.

 

[Wendy]

Exactly what I was thinking. How much like the original do the devs want the remake to be. If close to 100%, the Orion sucked bigtime in the original, and it sounds like it still does now. I could tear them up in a Tarsus because they were big and slow.

If you're trying to give every ship it's niche ( and I think that is a cool thing to attempt to do), then the Orion needs work.

Y'know, Niche-wise, the Orion never fit the bill. It was a lame duck from the start. Twice the shields of anything else and 1/8 the manoeuvreability.

In the game, you start out with a light cargo vessel. The Tarsus.
The Galaxy is a medium cargo vessel.
The Drayman is a Humongous cargo vessel. A big lumbering OX.

The Centurion is supposedly a heavy fighter, but a medium hunter.
Class-wise, with the rear turret, maybe, but it sure handles more like a medium fighter.

The Gothri. . .Now THAT'S a heavy fighter. Rear turret guns, four forward facing guns and twin missiles up front, heavy, HEAVY shields, and a turn-rate that is appropriate to the weight. AND IT'S FASTER than the Orion.

This is SPACE. ZERO GRAVITY. Bricks turn as easily as anything else. Yes, you have to overcome the mass before it starts to move. I understand that, but, the NOSE is light on an Orion. It has almost NO mass by comparison to it's body. It should spin like a top. Instead it spins like a mortared brick. It LOOKS like a brick with a nose on the original radar/HUD screens. It LOOKED AWESOME there.

I'd like to see it as a heavy class fighter, not as a poor excuse for one. There is no place for it in the game as it stands. Not unless there's a place for targets. There aren't any tanks, where you NEED a LOW and SLOW destroyer, like the Warthog A-10 Thunderbolt Tank Killer. (See attached images)

 

[Wendy]

Then there's the Apache AH-64D Longbow Helicopter

Again, Low, Slow and POWERFUL

Nice for the job, but what's Orion's Job?

Hunter? How? Too sluggish and not enough guns.

Fighter? Against a Drayman, Sure. But that's it.

Cargo? Where? 50 to 75 units?

Combo? You need more cargo room and better manoeuvreability.

 

[MamiyaOtaru]

Combo? You need more cargo room and better manoeuvreability.

I believe that's what I've been saying?

This is SPACE. ZERO GRAVITY. Bricks turn as easily as anything else. Yes, you have to overcome the mass before it starts to move. I understand that, but, the NOSE is light on an Orion. It has almost NO mass by comparison to it's body. It should spin like a top. Instead it spins like a mortared brick.

Weightless is not the same thing as massless. Being in zero gravity has no effect on rotational inertia.

It's not quite clear, but I am pretty sure it is the rotational acceleration (or lach thereof) that is bothering you instead of the max turn rate. The Orion (once it gets going) can actually spin faster than a Tarsus (86, 86, 86 vs 77, 71, 77). Just that it takes a while longer to work up to its max speed.. So, we drop the mass some, or add even more thrust to the already ridiculous amount it has (like all the ships).

One further thing could be to make the higher level shields recharge faster. Right now they all recharge at the same cm/sec rate.. That might help its survivability some.

It really is a problem, since Origin gave us a ship that totally sucked

 

[Wendy]

I believe that's what I've been saying?
Weightless is not the same thing as massless. Being in zero gravity has no effect on rotational inertia.

It's not quite clear, but I am pretty sure it is the rotational acceleration (or lach thereof) that is bothering you instead of the max turn rate. The Orion (once it gets going) can actually spin faster than a Tarsus (86, 86, 86 vs 77, 71, 77). Just that it takes a while longer to work up to its max speed.. So, we drop the mass some, or add even more thrust to the already ridiculous amount it has (like all the ships).

One further thing could be to make the higher level shields recharge faster. Right now they all recharge at the same cm/sec rate.. That might help its survivability some.

It really is a problem, since Origin gave us a ship that totally sucked

Yeah,
fall into a wall and you still break a bone.

Umm. . .I think what bothers me more is that I so wanted to fly it, because it looked so good in the original game's scanners. And it so totally sucked. So I get so loud about it, because it so disappointed me.

It's in the fleet, just because, it seems.

It could be such a cool ship, but it seems to miss the boat in all respects. It's kinda like a tugboat right now, ugly slow to get moving, with more raw power than anything, but with nothing there for the end-user to use it for. If you go sailing, do YOU have a need for a tugboat? It has no purpose.

If you can't have the stiletto, you need to have a Privateer version of the Gothri or a cross between the Tarsus and the Centurion. It sure isn't the Galaxy, that's too light.

While it would be interesting to have a deadly dervish, (faster spinrate) I don't think you'd kill much with it.

Recharging the shields faster? That might work. I mean, Looking at the way the Gothri is so tough, half if it is it's shields. the other half is its thick skin. You pound away on the hull and it STILL has all its guns to shoot at you.

Looking at the Orion, The guns are dead, you're still alive, and your ship is still functioning, sortof, but you've failed the mission. You might as well be in the escape pod for all the damage you have to repair. That's prolly another thing that irks me so much about it. What are the fatal design flaws?

Weight?
Blind sides?
Insufficient / insubstantial guns? The shields go down and the first thing to go is the guns.

What's the use of a hard to kill hull? Maybe thicker or faster recharging side and rear shields. Even a turtle has to poke its head out.

You can't make it indestructible. That takes the fun out of the game. But you have to give the user something to use and a reason to use it. As it sits, you should drop it and give a booster engine to the Tarsus.

 

[Chemus]

Perhaps I'm missing the point, but why are there two types of armor? In Pr1, when the armor was gone, any hit to the ship would kill the ship. The Orion (which I'm not defendig here) had the thickest fighter-class armor IIRC. Why is there a Hull in this remake? If it's necessary for programming reasons, why not make it the armor? Alternatively, why not make the hull very light so that any direct hit would kill it? Then use armor as in Original game. (ha ha I made a punny)