Tolwyns mistake?

[Bandit LOAF]

Any ship on Privateer is laser-only, as long as just mount it with lasers. Now of course I meant ships on the "main games", that being the games where you play as Blair, at least until WCIV.

The Tarsus' you inherit at the start of the game is armed with a single laser. How could you possibly mean - without saying! - only the "main games"? What a pointless distinction. It's the only fighter that has only lasers since the Hornet... other than those that don't, and the fact that it doesn't only have lasers!

The "second array of weirdo super-awesome other guns" are random stuff Pliers put on the ships. A lot of it is scavenged, not the result of vast budget. The leech guns are their for humanitarian reasons, and for stealing Confed stuff. So they pay themselves, so to speak. The scatter gun is something Pliers did on his spare time, and he did have a lot of spare time. The game makes it clear that they acquired the scatter guns on an unconventional way that didn't involve a monetary transaction. So it all adds up the notion that almost everything on the militia was improvised, in contrast with the professional forces of Confed.

I didn't say anything about a budget and I'm fully aware of the history behind the various weapons -- I'm not sure why any of this has come up with.

We have one reason: it is an important plot point in the game that they have only the one. Pliers even say that exclictlly. So if Blair chooses to use on Ella he *can't* use it on the Vesivius. Since we know he uses it on the Vesivius, we know he could not possibly have used it on Ella, because that’s how the game must be played, that’s how it was intended to happen. To the very least, that's a valid assumption, similar to the way we assume that Blair went to Speradon instead of Circe.

... yes, that's what I said. Since he uses the flashpak in the novel on the Vesuvius, he can not have used it on Ella. My point was that the proof comes from the novel (which is clear on the matter) and *not* Secret Ops (which has a different base in Ella).

Well, you were wondering about why people liked the Border Worlds, what makes surrendering to them even less desirable. Didn’t they hunt human prisoners with bare claws?

... the Border Worlders?

But seriously, Thrak'hra lords and officers did hunt *prisoners of war* on Gimle (well, according to Shotglass -- and the very next conversation you have with him is about how fast the Scimitar is), not slaves.

There's a pretty significant difference there. I don't think you quite understand what's meant by a slave society. It's not some wild and free giant cat party where evil space cats can slaughter whoever they like at will. Slaves are a precious commodity and what makes the entire economic system work. Kilrathi are bound to sustain their slave populations because these populations make up the core of the empire. The Kilrathi use slaves for everything -- agriculture, manufacturing, research and development, etc. You'll find this point made by any similar human society -- that the slaves are better off because they *must* be cared for by the slaveholders, whereas free market societies would simply have them fall through the cracks in the system. It's certainly not entirely accurate, but it is very relevant here.

This means the Kilrathi are willing to test horrible bioweapons on slaves they don't need.

No, they're *not* slaves. You're confused about Locanda: it's a Terran Confederation held star system, not a Kilrathi world that they suddenly opt to destroy. The Kilrathi destroy it *instead* of mounting an offensive to capture it. Locanda isn't at all an example of how they treat their slaves.

That has nothing to do with a newsgroup debate, I just have the game as a frame of reference because I played it a lot, much more than I read the novel. Your assumption that I'm somehow angry at past discussions is bit silly. And I don’t feel at all I was out-argued, just outnumbered. You’d find out that some of the things I used to argue back then – like the possibility of the UBW winning the war, or that Tolwyn planned a wide deployment of the Gen Select device on Confed territory – are no so outrageous after all.

I don't think it's possible to be "outnumbered" in an open debate setting.

I mean, what's the purpose of a debate? To convince readers... and if you percieve yourself as being "outnumbered" (which I don't even see being reasonably possible), then it's a pretty good bet you're doing something wrong. People agree with the side that's making the more compelling point.

I find all this very entertaining because I enjoy Wing Commander, not that I somehow care what the "official" name of Paulsen is. The reason I call it "Black Lance" is because that's the name they used in the game, and I happen to like it, not because I have some hidden agenda.

Oh, good, there's no hidden agenda - so you won't have any problem correcting your language in the future. In that case, I'm certainly sorry; I wrongly assumed you were just being a jerk because Chris whooped you over this exact topic nine years ago.

So, to reiterate: (Black) Lance refers to the fighter, The Project is how Tolwyn et. al. refer to the conspiracy and Paulson is the preferred spelling of the man who replaced Eisen's name.

 

[Quarto]

The "second array of weirdo super-awesome other guns" are random stuff Pliers put on the ships. A lot of it is scavenged, not the result of vast budget. The leech guns are there for humanitarian reasons and for stealing Confed stuff. They pay themselves, so to speak. The scatter gun is something Pliers did on his spare time, and he did have a lot of spare time.

You know, I have to say that that's one aspect of WC4 I really, really detested. A decrepit ship out in the middle of nowhere... with a crazy mechanic that puts together a cloaking device in his spare time? As far as excuses to give the player special equipment go, that one was truly awful.

I like that idea... but it's not what I see here. Wing Commander IV presents a strange situation: suddenly the Confederation is oppressing some of its star systems -- refusing them proper representation in the Senate and such... all generic evil empire sorts of issues that seem to come out of nowhere.

Well, sure, but at the same time, the WC4 plot is all about explaining where these generic evil empire issues came from. We know thanks to the later False Colors novel that the conflict between Confed and the border worlds (non-capitalised, because I mean simply the periphery as a whole) was brewing for a while, and there were people actively working to heat it up. Then, later, we see Seether engaging in all sorts of piracy in order to create the impression that the Border Worlds is being aggressive... while simultaneously hiring mercenaries to attack the Border Worlds in Confed ships. It doesn't take an especially big leap of faith to imagine that all this was the main cause for the conflict, while the other issues I mentioned earlier merely made the whole thing more plausible to the two governments involved.

Ultimately, of course, the conflict in WC4 will still seem fairly artificial, because it was something made up solely as an excuse for a particular plot. I agree that it would have been better had there been something deeper to the conflict than all this stuff suddenly cropping up... but at the same time, I don't think this is a major problem. Other sources in the WC universe give us enough hints about the possibility of such a conflict to make it all work, even if sometimes we have to stretch the evidence a bit. We certainly have enough information to make up plausible theories about what happened, in any case.

 

[Edfilho]

I didn't see those issues Loaf mentions. Along the game blair and the other debate the whole Confed vs. BW colonies issue... And it seems a multi-faceted situation just like most heated debates in real life. Some people believe that the border worlds are ingrateful bastards who are turning their backs on the generous confed... others sustain that the confed is a leech that has now left the border worlds to fend for themselves...

Probably there was some truth in both points of view... and the "true" (if such a thing exists) story was somewhere inbetween. I see nothing wrong in the retcon, just like blair's parents' religion was never an issue before the movie, the political troubles of a fringe area of confed's space was never brought up. Then, after the war was over and we were out of immediate military danger, economical and political problems became a lot more difficult to suffocate.

For various reasons, most of what was left from the european colonial empires fell apart after the war (along several decades). Why couldn't something a tad similar happen with confed?

Loaf, you dislike the UBw, fine. But that is one point of view... among several that ARE equaly valid. Many a long time WC fan sees no problem in the UBW's arising in WC4. You know, there is no such thing as a definitive version of facts, at least not in non-crappy works of fiction, and certainly not in the real world...

And by the way, I started WC with wc1 and have no problem with Christopher Maverick Blair, even though I used to be "Orion" before that. Not all old-timers hate the FMV era.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

Loaf, you dislike the UBw, fine. But that is one point of view... among several that ARE equaly valid. Many a long time WC fan sees no problem in the UBW's arising in WC4. You know, there is no such thing as a definitive version of facts, at least not in non-crappy works of fiction, and certainly not in the real world...

Of course it's one point of view, I was responding to the specific question of why *I* didn't like the Border Worlds. If you're going to post long rants like this you should read back in the argument first - I'm certainly not saying that the Border Worlds shouldn't or don't exist... I'm answering a question about why I never liked them.

(That said, many points I make earlier are completely valid -- such as those about the operation at Speradon... but you don't seem to be dealing with that issue here, so I'm not entirely sure if your response is intended to include those 'in universe' debates already discussed in this thread.)

 

[Edfilho]

I did read it. And I was answering some of your points re: UBW. "It's only an opinion" was definitely not the point I tried to make.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

I did read it. And I was answering some of your points re: UBW. "It's only an opinion" was definitely not the point I tried to make.

Then I don't think you've made your point properly, as I have no idea what your point was beyond this.

 

[Edfilho]

That there is nothing of akward about the UBW's introduction into WCU.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

Of course there is, they come out of nowhere in an area of space we're supposed to already be very familiar with. It's like the Pilgrim backstory in the movie -- it's something that can be retconned in, but not something that you immediately accept.

 

[Edfilho]

No one was very familiar with those systems. We flew missions there, but apart from the names, we knew close to nothing about the people who lived there or the local politics. It was all very generic, apart from some backgrounds and nebulae

 

[Bandit LOAF]

I certainly know some of them quite well -- places like Loki, Repleetah, Kurosawa and Tartarus are star systems that were only part of the Confederation because it fought to capture them from the Kilrathi. They're systems we paid for in blood... and now Confed is being too mean to them?

 

[ChrisReid]

Loaf, you dislike the UBw, fine. But that is one point of view... among several that ARE equaly valid. Many a long time WC fan sees no problem in the UBW's arising in WC4. You know, there is no such thing as a definitive version of facts, at least not in non-crappy works of fiction, and certainly not in the real world...

Of course it's one point of view, I was responding to the specific question of why *I* didn't like the Border Worlds. If you're going to post long rants like this you should read back in the argument first - I'm certainly not saying that the Border Worlds shouldn't or don't exist... I'm answering a question about why I never liked them.

I did read it. And I was answering some of your points re: UBW. "It's only an opinion" was definitely not the point I tried to make.

That's clearly what you were doing though. And that's kind of a pet peeve of mine. Me or LOAF or other people can't get away with an opinion sometimes without some OMG SO OPPRESSED backlash. That being said, loaf's observation that the UBW awkwardly come out of nowhere is spot on. It's separate from the point of view that he posted prior to that though.

 

[Delance]

Of course there is, they come out of nowhere in an area of space we're supposed to already be very familiar with. It's like the Pilgrim backstory in the movie -- it's something that can be retconned in, but not something that you immediately accept.

I somewhat agree, but it's like any new faction, like the Landreich. You never hear about them until you do. What makes the Pilgrim harder to retcon and immediatly accept is that they were implemented after WCP to a period before WC1. At least the UBW and the Landreich are introduced more or less as they come to exist, or at least as they become relevant. The "border worlds" existed from WC1, but the political institution is pretty much irrelevant before WCIV. At least for me, and this is a personal thing, it's much stranger we never heard about Blair being a Pilgrim on WC1 than that we didn't hear about the Border Worlds.

I mean, the BW worlds were not the *only* ones to break from Confed after the war. At least Ghora Khar did that, right? Confed citzens one day, part of the Kilrathi assembly of clans later.

 

[AD]

I somewhat agree, but it's like any new faction, like the Landreich. You never hear about them until you do. What makes the Pilgrim harder to retcon and immediatly accept is that they were implemented after WCP to a period before WC1. At least the UBW and the Landreich are introduced more or less as they come to exist, or at least as they become relevant. The "border worlds" existed from WC1, but the political institution is pretty much irrelevant before WCIV. At least for me, and this is a personal thing, it's much stranger we never heard about Blair being a Pilgrim on WC1 than that we didn't hear about the Border Worlds.

And the Pilgrims were only relevant to Blair and anyone else in confed pre WC1. So what! (Although I really like my privateer's visible jump bubbles theory )

 

[Bandit LOAF]

I somewhat agree, but it's like any new faction, like the Landreich. You never hear about them until you do. What makes the Pilgrim harder to retcon and immediatly accept is that they were implemented after WCP to a period before WC1. At least the UBW and the Landreich are introduced more or less as they come to exist, or at least as they become relevant. The "border worlds" existed from WC1, but the political institution is pretty much irrelevant before WCIV. At least for me, and this is a personal thing, it's much stranger we never heard about Blair being a Pilgrim on WC1 than that we didn't hear about the Border Worlds.

I mean, the BW worlds were not the *only* ones to break from Confed after the war. At least Ghora Khar did that, right? Confed citzens one day, part of the Kilrathi assembly of clans later.

Well, no, the Landreich are consistently re-introduced as major players further and further back in the timeline - including being attached at the hip to the story of the start of the war and to Tolwyn's own personal history.

I think the novels did right a lot of things that the game did wrong, though, in the case of the Landreich:

* They are unimportant. The books drone this in again and again - the Landreich Sector is far off on the flanks of the universe, a portion of space neither side is especially interested in. This is a lot easier to swallow than 'all the places in the games you've played before are leaving the Confederation now'.

* They have a historical analogue. They're the Republic of Texas in Space, and we can understand them because of that.

* They are not always right. The novels bring up all sorts of internal division and external moral questions regarding the Landreich -- we see the inner workings of their politics and we understand that they're a divided but unique culture... which is more than "all systems are equal in our eyes!" ever did for WCIV. (But here again I would duplicate some of the criticism I assigned to the fandom with regards to the Border Worlds - there's a big 'neat, another faction, lets love it until it's Confed Jr.!' aspect here as well.)

What makes the Pilgrim retcon 'harder to accept' is that people just didn't like the movie. If the movie had been brilliant we'd have ten billion internet fanfic/PBM/RPG dealies where everyone was striving to have the Pilgrim character. The concept is not in the least contradictory (oh my! They revealed Blair's mother's parents religion? Insane!).

 

[Delance]

Well, no, the Landreich are consistently re-introduced as major players further and further back in the timeline - including being attached at the hip to the story of the start of the war and to Tolwyn's own personal history.

Well, technically, I phrased it as a tautology, so it couldn’t be wrong. We really first hear about the Landreich when we do.

I think the novels did right a lot of things that the game did wrong, though, in the case of the Landreich:

* They are unimportant. The books drone this in again and again - the Landreich Sector is far off on the flanks of the universe, a portion of space neither side is especially interested in. This is a lot easier to swallow than 'all the places in the games you've played before are leaving the Confederation now'.

Oh, but the UWB are unimportant. WCIV is not about the independence of the Border Worlds, is about the media called Tolwyn's Black Lance forces. The issue became important because Tolwyn was ordering all sorts of attacks on behalf of the BW and the senate was freaking out, not because the UBW was itself important.

And I think some things are much better in games than in the novels, and vice versa, depending on the specific case.

They have a historical analogue. They're the Republic of Texas in Space, and we can understand them because of that.

A civil war between a Union and a Confederation is not completely unheard of, but I'm not making the case of historical analogy with it. However, colonies revolting and becoming independent nations is very common and easy to relate.

They are not always right. The novels bring up all sorts of internal division and external moral questions regarding the Landreich -- we see the inner workings of their politics and we understand that they're a divided but unique culture... which is more than "all systems are equal in our eyes!" ever did for WCIV. (But here again I would duplicate some of the criticism I assigned to the fandom with regards to the Border Worlds - there's a big 'neat, another faction, lets love it until it's Confed Jr.!' aspect here as well.)

But the BW are not always right either, as you like to point out. Too bad we never get to see the inner workings of their politics, and it'd be good if that could be addressed. Perhaps then it’d be more to your taste. But even if you dislike the fandom’s attitude towards something, is it a reason to dislike it? I do like the idea that there are humans outside Confed, and that Confed is a voluntary alliance, not an oppressive regime, or something that intends to be the same as mankind. A plurality of human nations on WC is a positive thing.

What makes the Pilgrim retcon 'harder to accept' is that people just didn't like the movie. If the movie had been brilliant we'd have ten billion internet fanfic/PBM/RPG dealies where everyone was striving to have the Pilgrim character. The concept is not in the least contradictory (oh my! They revealed Blair's mother's parents religion? Insane!).

No way, I didn't like the idea of Pilgrims much before the movie was released. The first time I read about it, I immediately disliked it. And when the movie was released, I had high hopes for it. So liking the movie and disliking the Pilgrims, to me, are not related at all.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

Oh, but the UWB are unimportant. WCIV is not about the independence of the Border Worlds, is about the media called Tolwyn's Black Lance forces. The issue became important because Tolwyn was ordering all sorts of attacks on behalf of the BW and the senate was freaking out, not because the UBW was itself important.

And I think some things are much better in games than in the novels, and vice versa, depending on the specific case.

I have no idea what that means. The novels and the games are part of the same vast expanse of Wing Commander -- we generally frown upon people who decide to rage against any one part.

The Border Worlds are decidedly important in Wing Commander IV - they're a faction invented by WC4 to create a conflict.

A civil war between a Union and a Confederation is not completely unheard of, but I'm not making the case of historical analogy with it. However, colonies revolting and becoming independent nations is very common and easy to relate.

But Wing Commander IV *isn't* about this, which is the point. It's *not* a historical analogue like most earlier Wing Commander stories -- it vaugely suggests that it might be on a purely stylistic level and then absolutely is not.

But the BW are not always right either, as you like to point out. Too bad we never get to see the inner workings of their politics, and it'd be good if that could be addressed. Perhaps then it’d be more to your taste. But even if you dislike the fandom’s attitude towards something, is it a reason to dislike it? I do like the idea that there are humans outside Confed, and that Confed is a voluntary alliance, not an oppressive regime, or something that intends to be the same as mankind. A plurality of human nations on WC is a positive thing.

I'm pretty sure I already made a long, exhaustive post about the many reasons I don't like the Border Worlds, both internally and externally.

No way, I didn't like the idea of Pilgrims much before the movie was released. The first time I read about it, I immediately disliked it. And when the movie was released, I had high hopes for it. So liking the movie and disliking the Pilgrims, to me, are not related at all.

Let me get this straight. We're behind the rest of our class and we're going to catch up to them by going slower than they are?

 

[Delance]

I have no idea what that means. The novels and the games are part of the same vast expanse of Wing Commander -- we generally frown upon people who decide to rage against any one part.

That's about right. I don't rage against any part, I just think some parts are done better one media or another. Novels are mode adequate to describe the inner political workings of a political organization, for example.

And, come to think of it, that's one of the cool things of WC right until WC3, all those extra info on manuals that would have no place on the game but added to the experience.

I remember it was something of a shock that WC4 didn't include the ships specs on printed material. I even complained to Origin on an e-mail, and they very politely send me a link to their site with the specs. You have to love Origin's custumer service. I remember that I got Ultima VII on a bundle, and it didn't include a map, so I asked them and they sent a paper replacement to me.

Of course there was nothing wrong with not shipping a lot of printed material, but it was their fault for spoiling the fans.

The Border Worlds are decidedly important in Wing Commander IV - they're a faction invented by WC4 to create a conflict.

But, like the Landreich, they are not very important on the overal scheme of things. And, also like the Landrich, they are important to the product they are mentioned. That was what I was trying to say.

But Wing Commander IV *isn't* about this, which is the point. It's *not* a historical analogue like most earlier Wing Commander stories -- it vaugely suggests that it might be on a purely stylistic level and then absolutely is not.

That's correct, it's not what WCIV is about, that's what the UBW was about.

WCIV was about something else. There plenty of historical analogies on WCIV, even if you apparently think they are all made up by me, or, at least rejects anything I mention on this grounds. That would make WCIV the most original WC story, but it’s not.

I'm pretty sure I already made a long, exhaustive post about the many reasons I don't like the Border Worlds, both internally and externally.

Of course. What I did say is that if they had treated it differently, it would be... well, different, so perhaps not disliked for the same reasons. Nevermind.

Let me get this straight. We're behind the rest of our class and we're going to catch up to them by going slower than they are?

I have no idea of what that means. What I said is that I personally did not dislike the Pilgrims *because* of the WC Movie. I disliked the introduction of the Pilgrims much before the movie was released, so the second did not influence the first.

Maybe that was the case with others, I can’t tell, but that’s not the sole reason for people to dislike the Pilgrims (or, rather, the way they were introduced).

 

[Bandit LOAF]

That's about right. I don't rage against any part, I just think some parts are done better one media or another. Novels are mode adequate to describe the inner political workings of a political organization, for example.

And, come to think of it, that's one of the cool things of WC right until WC3, all those extra info on manuals that would have no place on the game but added to the experience.

I remember it was something of a shock that WC4 didn't include the ships specs on printed material. I even complained to Origin on an e-mail, and they very politely send me a link to their site with the specs. You have to love Origin's custumer service. I remember that I got Ultima VII on a bundle, and it didn't include a map, so I asked them and they sent a paper replacement to me.

Of course there was nothing wrong with not shipping a lot of printed material, but it was their fault for spoiling the fans.

It was a sad cost-cutting measure for WCIV. I like the novel fragment (and comparing it to the final version printed a year later is *fascinating*), but the fact that they didn't have the IMGS guys do a Claw Marks or Victory Streak style manual was somewhat disgraceful -- *especially* given the extra two months of development time Wing 4 ended up having. That would have been the perfect scenario for publishing an accurate manual. (On the other hand, we shoulder some of the blame... it's fans like us complaining about incorrect weapons loadouts being listed that cut manuals down over the years. That plus localization.)

But, like the Landreich, they are not very important on the overal scheme of things. And, also like the Landrich, they are important to the product they are mentioned. That was what I was trying to say.

But the Border WOrlds *are* important to the 'future' of WC. They're the middle of the map -- when the Nephilim attack, the Border Worlds are in the middle of it. When they eventually bring back the Kilrathi Empire, it's bordering the Union instead of the Confederation now. When you have a new 'Privateer' frontier story it's going to be set in the Border Worlds. The political organization created as a plot point for WCIV has lasting consequences for the shape of the universe in all future stories.

That's correct, it's not what WCIV is about, that's what the UBW was about.

WCIV was about something else. There plenty of historical analogies on WCIV, even if you apparently think they are all made up by me, or, at least rejects anything I mention on this grounds. That would make WCIV the most original WC story, but it’s not.

I don't think being based in history is any strike against originality.

I have no idea of what that means. What I said is that I personally did not dislike the Pilgrims *because* of the WC Movie. I disliked the introduction of the Pilgrims much before the movie was released, so the second did not influence the first.

Maybe that was the case with others, I can’t tell, but that’s not the sole reason for people to dislike the Pilgrims (or, rather, the way they were introduced).

You didn't like the Pilgrims before the movie came out... but then you had high hopes for the movie? Your claim makes no sense. If you're honestly bragging that "I didn't like this before I knew what it is!" for the sake of winning a tiny point in an internet argument... that's just really, really, really sad.

 

[Delance]

It was a sad cost-cutting measure for WCIV. I like the novel fragment (and comparing it to the final version printed a year later is *fascinating*), but the fact that they didn't have the IMGS guys do a Claw Marks or Victory Streak style manual was somewhat disgraceful -- *especially* given the extra two months of development time Wing 4 ended up having. That would have been the perfect scenario for publishing an accurate manual. (On the other hand, we shoulder some of the blame... it's fans like us complaining about incorrect weapons loadouts being listed that cut manuals down over the years. That plus localization.)

Interesting, I never did compre them directly, do you have any interesting findings to share?

Speaking of WCIV, do you have all that merchandise that was advertising with it? I remember they used an image of the Dragon erm.. "Lance Fighter" landing on Telamon, I mean... FT957 and some awkward URL.

In my defense, I never complained it was wrong, just absent. There is a semi-rare localized portuguese WCIV version around, but I never got it. Globalization has its good and bad cosequences.

But the Border WOrlds *are* important to the 'future' of WC. They're the middle of the map -- when the Nephilim attack, the Border Worlds are in the middle of it. When they eventually bring back the Kilrathi Empire, it's bordering the Union instead of the Confederation now. When you have a new 'Privateer' frontier story it's going to be set in the Border Worlds. The political organization created as a plot point for WCIV has lasting consequences for the shape of the universe in all future stories.

Well, I agree their position is quite important. It might be not the best place ever to be between Confederation and Kilrathi space. I wonder how safe must those people living on the left side of the map must've felt during the war.

You didn't like the Pilgrims before the movie came out... but then you had high hopes for the movie? Your claim makes no sense. If you're honestly bragging that "I didn't like this before I knew what it is!" for the sake of winning a tiny point in an internet argument... that's just really, really, really sad.

Not that all. If you make an effort to understand me instead of trying to debate me, perhaps I could explain.

I don't dislike Pilgrims per se. That guy from the WC Movie does. He *hates* pilgrims. Not me. I'm not crazy about the Pilgrim story on itself. Most of what bothers me is what happens before the movie timeline, and was came to my attention after the movie, in the novels.

I didn't like the way the were introduced. All this stuff happening before WC1 and we never heard of it? The pilgrim "powers", and all those elements being introduced after WCP to a timeline before the fist game? And the retcon ensued.

And yes, I had high hopes for the movie. Of course I did. I wouldn't let this single aspect, that wasn't even that relevant in the final version, stop me. (We didn't even have the pilgrim traitor.) But it's part of what I don't like in the movie, for example the line "It's not faith, it's genetics". How very inspirational.

The movie has some nice parts that I like as a fan. But I don’t know if I would care for it if I wasn’t. But I don't find it nowhere near as bad as it's rated, and it doesn't deserve to be on imdb's bottom 250 list as it was that time.

EDIT: What about changing the DREX to LAEX? If I added a T, it would receive a sudden surge in hits.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

Speaking of WCIV, do you have all that merchandise that was advertising with it? I remember they used an image of the Dragon erm.. "Lance Fighter" landing on Telamon, I mean... FT957 and some awkward URL.

I have some of it. I have a WC4 shirt (of the scene you're referring to), a WC4 logo hat and then all the WC3 and 4 chrome-art. I'm missing another WC4 shirt and then both WC3 shirts and the WC3 hat.

Well, I agree their position is quite important. It might be not the best place ever to be between Confederation and Kilrathi space. I wonder how safe must those people living on the left side of the map must've felt during the war.

I'm sure there's stories to be told there -- families sending their children off to fight in the big war, never seeing it themselves... farmers and miners giving up all they produce to something that seems far off and never-ending.

Not that all. If you make an effort to understand me instead of trying to debate me, perhaps I could explain.

I don't dislike Pilgrims per se. That guy from the WC Movie does. He *hates* pilgrims. Not me. I'm not crazy about the Pilgrim story on itself. Most of what bothers me is what happens before the movie timeline, and was came to my attention after the movie, in the novels.

I didn't like the way the were introduced. All this stuff happening before WC1 and we never heard of it? The pilgrim "powers", and all those elements being introduced after WCP to a timeline before the fist game? And the retcon ensued.

And yes, I had high hopes for the movie. Of course I did. I wouldn't let this single aspect, that wasn't even that relevant in the final version, stop me. (We didn't even have the pilgrim traitor.) But it's part of what I don't like in the movie, for example the line "It's not faith, it's genetics". How very inspirational.

The movie has some nice parts that I like as a fan. But I don’t know if I would care for it if I wasn’t. But I don't find it nowhere near as bad as it's rated, and it doesn't deserve to be on imdb's bottom 250 list as it was that time.

I don't think you can take the IMDb seriously for anything. I could see the Wing Commander movie having a weird cult following in ten or fifteen years -- it's tha tkind of movie, and whenever we're at cons we run into strange people who don't know the games but *love* the movie. I would not have ever expected that, either, but it seems to be a constant.

I don't think the movie adds anything more to the 'pre-WC1' period than, say, Action Stations or Wing Commander Academy.