Tolwyn's Family...

[Dralthi5]

I've been reading the novels over again recently and I have a question. It's not really all that important, but I'm just curious.

What was Tolwyn's wife's name? In Action Stations, there's a mention of a woman named Rebecca; in End Run, it was Elizabeth; but it Fleet Action it's Clara. Now, was Tolwyn a ladies man or is this another "Forstchenism". ie. huge gaps in continuity.

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If I'm locked on, there's no such thing as evasive action!

 

[steampunk]

Ladies man. Definitely a ladies man ...

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Mess with the best, die like the rest.

 

[Quarto]

The Clara & Elizabeth thing is most certainly a Forstchenism. Rebecca probably is in theory a Forstchenism, but other facts (he's said to meet Elizabeth thanks to Banbridge, whereas Rebecca was an arrangement of his family) make it possible to accept her as another person altogether. The fact that he dumped his arranged fiancee for an unknown also helps to explain why he frequently argued with his family (well, Kevin was another reason).

There. How's that for a creative explanation of yet another Forstchen blunder?

 

[Mad Hatter]

While we`re on the subject of Forstchenism, I`m reading End Run nowdays (in your face Quarto

), and there`s this bit where he mentions the Concordia being attacked, her launch bays are damaged and she ends up being saved by someone named Pheonix and his wingmate, who had launched from a nearby starbase. Question is, does this happen that frequently to the Concordia, or is that Pheonix guy he mentioned actually Blair, and this is just another Forstchenism?

 

[Quarto]

I finished End Run yesterday, Mad Hatter

.

Maybe Phoenix was the callsign they used for that LaFong guy from the WC1/2 guide (which I haven't seen). In which case, Forstchen wouldn't be wrong - just outdated. Either way, I'm fairly certain that he was referring to Blair, who didn't get his proper name until WC3.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

I do believe that this thread needs my particular brand of expertise.

Colonel LaFong's callsign is 'Prankster', which is explained in the guide.

Phoenix and wingmate cannot be Maverick and Shadow for one very simple reason -- Jason speaks of the incident involving them happening while he was assigned to the Concordia... Blair & Shadow saved the ship two years earlier. Forstchen *does* refer to Wing 2 in End Run, when he talks about a traitor blowing up the Concordia's flight deck before Bear's tour there.

Tolwyn's wifes name is Elizabeth -- none of the others are ever actually called his wife (given the context in which she was mentioned, I've always assumed that Clara was his *daughter*).

 

[Mad Hatter]

Bear never said he was aboard the Concordia when that event occured. He simply mentioned the fact that he remembered it happened. Since the Concordia is a pretty important ship, it could be that it was simply a famous incident which everybody knew of.
So, the question remains: Who are Pheonix and his wingmate?

BTW, Quarto, how did you manage to get a hold of "End Run", anyway?

[This message has been edited by Mad Hatter (edited September 14, 2000).]

 

[Quarto]

How does "With Clara and the boys gone" make you assume that Clara was his daughter? I find it very hard to believe that he wouldn't consider his wife while thinking about his family being gone. Besides, there is no indication whatsoever that Tolwyn had a daughter. His dead family is mentioned two or three times. Now, I could have sworn the number of sons varies from book to book, but there has never been a daughter

.

 

[Quarto]

Oh, didn't see your post, Mad Hatter

. That's true, it doesn't say he was on the Concordia at the time. So, maybe it's a case of Forstchenism after all, but I guess there's no way to prove it.

Oh, wait. There is, sorta. Forstchen never mentions a character by his callsign unless the character has previously appeared in a book or a game. Therefore, he must have assumed that we'll know who this Phoenix is.

As for the book, Shane sent it to me, along with Action Stations and The Price of Freedom

.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

Erm, mayhaps I assumed Clara was his daughter because I already knew that Elizabeth was his wife? Spluh.

"He remembered the surprise strike on the Concordia" definately implies that he was there, given that he'd just introduced that he'd been on the Concordia four a tour. It could be taken the other way, I suppose, but that's just you being a jackhole and making up errors where none exist.

And what the fluf is up with "Forstchen neve mentions a character by his callsign unless the character has previously appeared in a book or game"... Where'd you make up that load of crap? What about Mongol? Griffin? Tarku? Flame? Ice Wind? Nova? Eagle? Talon? Thor? Odin? And so on and so forth... Furthermore, even if it were true, how much sense would it make to assume that he's made up a callsign for Blair and assumes that we know who he's talking about?

 

[Mad Hatter]

No need to get all touchy LOAF. I rather like Forstchen`s style of writing, even if he does make some mistakes in names and events. I was just wondering, since he does have a habit of changing names, maybe that`s just one of them. I`m not speciifcally looking for errors.

Quarto, it was nice of Shane sending you the books.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

Touchy would be banning people I don't like. I don't get touchy.

 

[Earthworm]

I guess Earthworm will throw in his two cents as well.

I too belive that Elizabeth is Tolwyn's wife, though I don't remember reading about Clara so I'd be greatefull for anyone pointing out the pages on which she's mentioned. As to Rebeca. Like LOAF said, she's never called his wife. Just that she's from a proper English family and it was in a sense an aranged marriage. But that was still before McAuliffe, a lot of things could have happened after that, especially since Tolwyn didn't exactly "get along" with his family.

 

[Dralthi5]

Quarto, glad you finally got End Run!

Funny, I just finished it yesterday, too... again.

I have a few other questions about the books which I was going to put in another thread, but it seems appropriate here, so I'll go ahead.

-In Fleet Action, Kruger's said to have hijacked a destroyer in Vance Richard's squadron in the opening days of the war when Confed had abandoned the frontier colonies (I assume for the defense of McAuliffe, but that's probably not right). Following the hijacking, this ship crashed and Kruger was stranded on a world behind Kilrathi lines for a couple years. Now in Action Stations Kruger (who's name has been changed to Hans for some reason) is serving on a frigate for the Landreich militia during the opening days of the war when Confed abandons the colonies. The ship crashes and he's stranded on Fawcett's World, which just happens to be behind Kilrathi lines. Now, did he get stranded twice in the opening days of the war, joining up with Confed and Vance Richard's squadron later, or is this just another Forstchenism?

-According to the WC3 novel, Blair was on the Tarawa during the end run to Kilrah. If this was true, then wouldn't Blair, who was a colonel, take command of the ship after O'Brian died, instead of Lt. Cmdr. Bondarevsky?

-There's some conflicting... things regarding Jukaga that I've noticed, too. In End Run, he says that before the war, he warned them not to attack Confed, yet in Action Stations, it's his father, Vakka, that protests the war and Jukaga is looking forward to fight before he spends time with Abram on Fawcett's World and his transferred to Admiral Nargth's staff.

-Also, just an observation:

When I first read Fleet Action, I was a little confused by Chamberlain's call sign. 'Round Top? What the hell is that?' But now that I'm a big Civil War buff these days, it seems that Chamberlain alludes to Colonel Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain, who won fame for defending Little Round Top during the Battle of Gettysburg. Does that seem to be correct?

Oh, you assumed Clara was his daughter, because you already knew Elizabeth was his wife, LOAF? Then can I assume that Spencer Banbridge is a different guy entirely, since Banbridge's name is Wayne in both End Run and Fleet Action?

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If I'm locked on, there's no such thing as evasive action!

 

[Earthworm]

No, he was stranded just once. Both books can be right though. Considering the state of the Landreich militia, a Frigate could get a few upgrades and be called a Destroyer. Not to mention that at the end of AS, Kruger says that this ship is nothing more than a transport with some guns welded on. Besides aren't frigates in the WC universe similar in size and offensive/defensive capabilities to destroyers?

Bondarevsky was the Wing Commander though, Blair could have been there on a not so important assignment, or just as one of the pilots. Besides, Blair had as much experience with runing a capship as Bear did.

But after Jukaga returned from Fawcett's World he was assigned to one of the Battlewagoons, as somewhat of an expert on the humans. He could have very well be warning them about the future of this conflict at that time.

Oh, you assumed Clara was his daughter, because you already knew Elizabeth was his wife, LOAF? Then can I assume that Spencer Banbridge is a different guy entirely, since Banbridge's name is Wayne in both End Run and Fleet Action?

It could be just his middle name.

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"The road to Hell is paved with good intentions"
and the bodies of those adventurers who get bad advice.

Member of the LMG (Disgruntled Men)
Surrender your Beer, or we'll take it by force.


[This message has been edited by Earthworm (edited September 14, 2000).]

 

[Dralthi5]

Middle name, eh? Well, in the fan fiction story I'm writing, I call Banbridge Wayne Spencer Banbridge, but there's nothing that says that's his name officially.

Well, I can understand what you're saying about the Destroyer-Frigate thing, Earthworm, but in FA, it says that he was part of Vance Richards' squadron. When Kruger's ship was engaged in action with the Cats, Richards was at McAuliffe flying a figher, right? And Kruger was in the Landreich militia, according to FA, not Confed, so why would Richards be commanding him?

Another thing about ships in the WC universe. In AS, there's a bunch of talk about battleships, yet in FA, Paladin considers battleships an ancient term? What's up with that?

Yeah, your views on why Bear, and not Blair, was in charge of Tarawa made sense. Jason was, after all, Wing Commander. Perhaps Blair was not even officially part of the wing ('cause if he was, he would've been given a squadron command, at least, wouldn't you think?), but an observer over from Concordia.

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If I'm locked on, there's no such thing as evasive action!

 

[Earthworm]

Middle name, eh? Well, in the fan fiction story I'm writing, I call Banbridge Wayne Spencer Banbridge, but there's nothing that says that's his name officially.

Well, if anything, Wayne would be the official one, since it appeared before AS.

When Kruger's ship was engaged in action with the Cats, Richards was at McAuliffe flying a figher, right? And Kruger was in the Landreich militia, according to FA, not Confed, so why would Richards be commanding him?

Richards was in command of a destroyer (or was that a destroyer squadron?) anyhow, he was on the same destroyer that Kruger was on. When they got the order to retreat, Kruger and others from the Landreich took over the ship, got Richards and other Confeds into lifeboats or something and stole the ship. Because of that Richards was given a desk job.

The whole thing with Kruger stealing the ship was sometime after McAuliffe when Richards was able to command a capship.

Another thing about ships in the WC universe. In AS, there's a bunch of talk about battleships, yet in FA, Paladin considers battleships an ancient term? What's up with that?

Aren't they called Battlewagoons in AS though? Anyhow, battleship can just stand for a *really big* heavy cruiser (think a dreadnought with little to no fighters).

Yeah, your views on why Bear, and not Blair, was in charge of Tarawa made sense. Jason was, after all, Wing Commander. Perhaps Blair was not even officially part of the wing ('cause if he was, he would've been given a squadron command, at least, wouldn't you think?), but an observer over from Concordia.

Not neccessarly. Tolwyn was still against Blair (even though he seemed *nice* to him in SO1 and SO2) so he wouldn't neccessarly give him any command jobs.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

The Frigate/Destroyer thing is a non-issue... if you will all check your copies of False Colors, you will see that these were two seprate incidences -- the first involving a Frigate and the second involving Richards and a destroyer squadron.

I've always operated under the assumption that he is either Wayne Spencer Banbridge, or that Wayne is a nickname.

Remember that Action Stations is an actual WC universe book, which was written *after* the war -- the Kilrathi had re-introduced us to the concept of a battleship... of course, the term battleship is used in Wing Commander 1 to refer to destroyers and such -- they're probably just something Hunter's not familiar with.

Blair was an officer in Special Operations for the Kilrah Run... it's possible that he wasn't a pilot at all, but rather an intel officer.

 

[Earthworm]

The Frigate/Destroyer thing is a non-issue... if you will all check your copies of False Colors, you will see that these were two seprate incidences -- the first involving a Frigate and the second involving Richards and a destroyer squadron.

What a surprise, LOAF's right! I guess there's a first time for everything.

FC, page 67:

"Max Kruger, a reject from the Academy and smuggler who had flown a recon team into Kilrathi territory and discovered the impending move towards war, had helped to organize the defense of the system. He had crash-landed on a Kilrathi base planet and had driven them to distraction with his commando raids on their base. Finally stealing a Kilathi frigate, he had made it back home and was hailed as a hero. His next action was typical of the Landreich, an action which catapulted him to the presidency of the system while at the same time earning him a court martial and condemnation as a mutineer. The Confederation had sent out a heavy cruiser with orders to act as the flagship for a Home Guard fleet of ships pressed into service from the Landreich's small local militia. The Confed commander, not used to the freewheeling ways of the frontier, had rubbed Kruger and others the wrong way with his spit-and-polish ideas of discipline. Their response had been simple, straightforward, and entirely predictable: they had seized the cruiser, kicked the officers and anyone who didn't want to go along with them off, and then set off on a raid deep into Kilrathi territory with their newfound firepower."

There's one thing that's bothering me though. If Richards is supposed to be the commander of that Confed cruiser, he would be used to the Landreich, after all he spent there some time while on that mission. He would understand the behavior of the Landreich fleet. And he also had known Kruger from those times.


[This message has been edited by Earthworm (edited September 14, 2000).]

 

[Quarto]

Dralthi5 says:
Oh, you assumed Clara was his daughter, because you already knew Elizabeth was his wife, LOAF? Then can I assume that Spencer Banbridge is a different guy entirely, since Banbridge's name is Wayne in both End Run and Fleet Action?

And let's not forget Max Kruger and his evil twin brother Hans. Are they different people too, LOAF?
Either way, the fact remains (confirmed by at least two books) that Tolwyn only had sons (or, if he had a daughter, she didn't die. But in that case, he still wouldn't refer to her as being gone).

LOAF says:
It could be taken the other way, I suppose, but that's just you being a jackhole and making up errors where none exist.

In another recent debate, you told Vondoom not to resort to personal attacks. Don't be a hipocrite.

You may be right that Bear wouldn't remember the incident unless he was on the Concordia at the time - but what about Maniac? The way Bear refers to Maniac all the time, it's almost like they served together for ages or something. But the WC3 novel seems to indicate that Maniac didn't serve on the Concordia for any notable lenght of time (and we can be quite certain that Bear was busy explaining his mutiny at Confed HQ during the time that Maniac spent on the Concordia in SO2).

As for the callsigns, I stand by what I said. It's true that we didn't know the names for most of the others on his wing, but we *had* been introduced to them. Therefore, he could expect us to know who they were. But this Phoenix guy? Who else can he be? Maybe he made the callsign up because he didn't know the proper one - heck, none of the pre-WC3 books ever refer to any LaFong or Prankster (and the later ones refer to Blair). Maybe he forgot it, and thought it was Phoenix (well, they both start with "p", and who the hell would use "Prankster" anyway?

)? Maybe he didn't know it at all, so he used Phoenix to symbolise Blair's career rising from the ashes?

Dralthi5: I guess Blair spent the Kilrah Run hiding in the closet... at least, that's what End Run indicates

.

Mad Hatter: Well, I did pay him for them

. But then, he still paid shipping, which was as much again as the books themselves - so yeah, it was nice of him. Now if only I could find someone with a spare copy of False Colours or the WC1/2 Guide...