Originally posted by Bob McDob
Really? I don't remember any flames the last...three times this topic was brought up, though it did eventually devolve into rambling about Nazis...but LOAF says all topics on the web eventually turn into ones about Nazis, so there!
Besides, if they didn't want us talking about it, why didn't they just ban the topic?
[Edited by Bob McDob on 07-14-2001 at 21:32]
Originally posted by Napoleon
I admire tolwyn greatly just not after FC.
Also Raptor, you are essentially wrong and correct. Your number 2 statement is right on. your number 1 statment is flawed because evolution is towards traits that are benificial so to remove the generally negative traits like genes for cancer, stupidity (ie low iq), and other generaly "bad" characteristics would have no negative effect on evolution. Everybody would not be the same, would you say decker and blair are the same? no yet they both survived the bugs (not nephilim, the disease).
Also another "good" thing about removing a large portion of the population is the fact that while close inbreeding does create large ammounts of defectives or culls it also leads to more rapid aquision of traits and faster evolution. So to remove a large portion of the population would generally allow this to take place more so than with a larger population. This is why I hold that human evolution has been effectivly stopped, we all outbreed so much that characteristics do not have the chance to be aquired.
Finally, tolwyn was just doing what nature would have done if not for human interferance. We through technology, (killing snakes and other deadly animals, creating shelter, not having to hunt, medicine, ect ad nauseum) have stopped the survival of the fittest struggle to reproduce. Any human without a serious defect can reproduce and often. I am nearsighted, and while I don't see this as a cardinal trait I know that if I didn't have modern inovations I would have died when I was 12 from not being able to see any potentiall threats. So if you look at it that way tolwyn was just doing what MUST be done for human evolution as well as what WOULD have been done already. Though i must admit it would have been much more acceptable and moral to render those inferior people infertile to provent them from breeding rather than kill em
Adaptation and evolution are different things. Humans will always adapt; nothing can stop what must be done. All creatures adjust themselves to their surroundings, as well as make efforts to adjust their surroundings to themselves, and it has nothing to do with genetics.Originally posted by Raptor
By fixing us into someone's idea of "perfect" genes, you actually sabotage any cance we have of adapting and evolving.
Wow, I love the psuedophilosophical statement at the end. He was a complete lunatic and a criminal. The Tolwyn who lead the Black Lance was not the same man who served Confed during the war. That man died and the newer, creazier Tolwyn took his place. Sorta like Darth Vader.Originally posted by Dak
Going back to the original question, is Tolwyn a fallen hero or a villain? He's a human and therefore both.
Originally posted by Raptor
Second, Tolwyn's methord is flawed in that it kills off people if they even have one "bad" gene. Someone who might be a brilliant fighter pilot or marine or a great weapons scientist would be killed even if the trait they had didn't in any way impair the work they did. That's totally differant to the way natural selection works, which selects for the organism's *overall* fitness to survive, the *sum* of all their genes. That means you're going to lose massive amounts of talent in every sector of human activity, and hoping that that this talent is still going to be replicated the much smaller population you have left. That's a hugely wastefull way of going about improving the population.
As evidenced by the fact that Sosa, who was a very capable officer and definitely an asset to the BW, would not have survived the genselect virus.
Originally posted by LeHah
Tolwyn was a tragicly flawed character. He lost his wife and children very early in the war, and then was consumed in the fighting the war involved. The war stretched on for most of his life and he knew nothing else but the balance of power in war.
Humans are creatures of habit and enviroment. Tolwyn's habit was winning at any cost, even sacraficing hundreds upon hundreds of people to further the Terran war effort.
Enviroment was what drove Tolwyn: the War never seemed to end, so why stop?
Do we have to?Originally posted by LeHah
Do we even know ages or names of his wife and kids?
I disagree... if we look at the novels, and Fleet Action especially (where Tolwyn invites all the people, who were to be part of his secret plan, to his house on Earth), Tolwyn is depicted as a lot more "human" character than in the games...
Yeah, we're talking about a human being that lost everything earthly and human about him with the death of his family.