To JOYSTICK or not to JOYSTICK? THAT is the question!

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webe123

Rear Admiral
OK, I just went to The Lancers Reactor and read some old posts about the Joystick debate that went on there when Digital Anvil decided to build a space simulation game called Freelancer that had NO joystick support! Personally, THIS is why I would not TOUCH this game! I had bought it at one time and tried it out, but then traded it for another game because I was so infuriated that Microsoft and Digital Anvil would try to make a Space sim game without joystick support to FORCE people to use a mouse if they wanted to play that game!

Now, don't get me wrong, I am not against people who use the mouse, even in some wing commander games...that is great if that is what they are used to....but I really don't like to be FORCED into using one control method, just because some jackass thinks it is cool! I think Microsoft and Digital Anvil had to find out the hard way, that people like choices! When you take away those choices, you take away your chances for selling more copies and thus limit yourself to a few people who will try to adjust to your controls, while most of the hard core gamers that preferred joysticks like me would not touch it or at the very least, try it and give up on it!


To me, THIS is what makes the Wing Commander series so great! The Joystick support! It is just not the same for me to try to turn a ship with a mouse! Call me old fashioned, but I still dig using a joystick!
Take WC 1 and 2 for example, those I don't think had any other kind of support, and they literally set the stage for space sim games in the future! But then, Microsoft and Digital Anvil thought they could force people into using one kind of control method! I hope they saw with the number of complaints they had against them that the NEXT time they try to make a space sim game, they INCLUDE joystick support! It is such a touchy subject at The Lancers Reactor that the post is automatically locked if anyone asks about joystick support for freelancer, because so many flame wars have started over this!


Now again, I am not against mouse support, I think it is great and we all should have more control options in the games we play, but to just have one way of controlling a game is a little bit idiotic if you ask me. so, do you think that the Joystick is a necissity when you play a space sim such as wing commander??
To me the Joystick is the only way to go when I want to fly in a space sim.
 
I'll admit that I was a little dismayed at the lack of choice on a control method for Freelancer, but then I got to thinking "Why?" I had gotten used to using joysticks in my flight sims and space sims, but why would using a joystick make sense in a space sim? Games like wing commander and the x-wing/TIE fighter games felt more like WW2 flight sims (where you didn't have to worry about running into the ground), so I suppose that could be why the developers felt that the game should have both mouse and joystick support (but really endorsed using a joystick for immersions sake).

As for other space sims, how about Star Trek: Bridge Commander? Would that game benefit from the option to use a joystick? Not really. Why? Because it just doesn't belong in the game (a joystick to control any of those ships would not fit into the whole Star Trek mind-set). I kinda feel the same is true with the Freelancer universe. A joystick option just wouldn't fit into the game universe.

So, I suppose to answer your question: no, a joystick is not a necessity when playing a space sim. It all depends on the universe the game is set in on whether or not a joystick is necessary to achieve full immersion. For Freelancer, at the height of my time spent playing it, I actually felt that the ship was attached to my arm (e.g. it was an extension of my body). So, no, the option to enable a joystick is not necessary to achieve immersion. It all depends on the game universe.
 
Ein-7919 said:
I'll admit that I was a little dismayed at the lack of choice on a control method for Freelancer, but then I got to thinking "Why?" I had gotten used to using joysticks in my flight sims and space sims, but why would using a joystick make sense in a space sim? Games like wing commander and the x-wing/TIE fighter games felt more like WW2 flight sims (where you didn't have to worry about running into the ground), so I suppose that could be why the developers felt that the game should have both mouse and joystick support (but really endorsed using a joystick for immersions sake).

As for other space sims, how about Star Trek: Bridge Commander? Would that game benefit from the option to use a joystick? Not really. Why? Because it just doesn't belong in the game (a joystick to control any of those ships would not fit into the whole Star Trek mind-set). I kinda feel the same is true with the Freelancer universe. A joystick option just wouldn't fit into the game universe.

So, I suppose to answer your question: no, a joystick is not a necessity when playing a space sim. It all depends on the universe the game is set in on whether or not a joystick is necessary to achieve full immersion. For Freelancer, at the height of my time spent playing it, I actually felt that the ship was attached to my arm (e.g. it was an extension of my body). So, no, the option to enable a joystick is not necessary to achieve immersion. It all depends on the game universe.
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But freelancer IS more like a WW2 fighter as opposed to the star trek games! That is why I am just not comfortable using a mouse to pilot a ship in freelancer. My question is, WHY limit peoples choices!?? Just because someone "thought" there was no need for a joystick, did not make it so! (You ought to have read the debates like I did on The Lancers Reactor.....talk about getting heated.....) But to me, in the freelancer universe and even the wing commander universe, a joystick IS a must for me! Why? Because you are piloting fighters and small craft.. NOT a ship like the enterprise, that moves like a battleship. For a fighter, I like the joystick option, because a real fighter like an F-16 has an actual stick....not a mouse. Now the stealth bomber is fly by wire, but I am not sure what it uses...still....the joystick option is what I want when I pilot a small craft such as a fighter.....but for a starship like enterprise....a mouse is more in order. So to answer what you stated, for small craft....joystick....for larger craft....mouse!
 
Oh, I've read the debates, and I must say, they got pretty darned funny at times. On a separate note (but related to WC): I simply cannot wait for the final release of The Reckoning!

Back to the matter at hand: I personally think that in the time frame that Freelancer is supposed to take place, it would be fairly naive to think that the joystick would be the means of space flight. A joystick is not the perfect form of control between pilot and space craft (far from it). It is a fairly inefficient means of controlling it. In space, there is no air resistance to overcome, so why would you need to have your entire hand dedicated to the task of control? In essence, all you would really need are your finger-tips (finesse over strength). Sure, the mouse is far from an ideal, but it is closer than a joystick.

I should also mention that this whole notion of controlling a space-craft simply by one's fingers is not my idea. I watch a bunch of anime (*ahem*) and one of my more favored space-themed series is called Crest of the Stars. It is from that series where I got the fly-by-finger notion.

I'm not saying that all space-sims should be mouse-only (heaven-forbid if WC was mouse-only), I'm just saying that for a game like Freelancer, the mouse-only method was in no way debilitating (from a gameplay perspective). If there were joystick support in Freelancer, it would completely change the dynamics of the game, or people would still gripe about it because the joystick would be so simplified (no roll, having to switch camera views in order to utilize the turrets, etc...).

Also, Bridge Commander (if you download certains ships) does have smaller fighter-type ships that feel just fine without joystick (the runabouts, maquis fighters, birds of prey, etc...).

a little FYI: the F-16 is also a fly-by-wire fighter (in fact, it was the first to have it). All fbw means is that everything is controlled electronically as opposed to hydraulically.

In any case, I don't want to renew the debate here in WCNews, but all I will say is that I don't think that a joystick is necessary for a space sim (which is all you were asking for in the first place). In fact, in the time these games are supposed to take place, I really doubt that a joystick would even exist. And to think that a flight stick is the epitome of control for space flight is really quite nieve (at least, that's how I see it).
 
Why does it matter weather or not you are in space or on earth to have a joystick?? This is a game we are talking about! What kind of controls it has , has nothing to do with the real world. So the laws of physics do not really apply! Unless you are wanting some kind of flight control that is developed by NASA that simulatres ACTUAL spaceflight....then I don't think it would have a joystick or mouse! The point is, that it would not have hurt the game to include joystick control, Starlancer had it and it was made by the same company. But the thing that got me the most was Digital Anvil and Microsofts way of forcing it on you if you wanted to play the game. And to say that the joystick would not be the control that is used in space would be a given, but neither would the mouse! So really, is a joystick necessary?? No.....but to me it is a HECK of a lot more fun!
 
We need to look beyond ourselves with regards to this issue.

Did FreeLancer have mouse control because the FreeLancer team thought that would be the best possible way to design the game? Of course not - there's no question in anyones mind, no matter what level of internet suck-up-dom they've attained, that the most fun way to play a flying game is with a controlled specially designed for flying games. Yes, wags, I know - you played {variable space game} with your keyboard and gosh darn it, you liked it that way. That's great, I did the same thing through Wing Commander III. You're attached to whatever you started with, fine. Joysticks are more fun. Deal with it.

So, what happened with FreeLancer?

History lesson: In the early nineties, joysticks were a standard component of 'gaming' computers. You ordered your Gateway 2000 and it had one of those $5 off-white joysticks with the enourmous button on top. (Yes, yes, I know, you built your own 486 out of hard drive screws, mentos and solder. I don't care.) The average family computer had a joystick. Back before you kids today came up with your super special amazing weekly video card upgrades, joystick setups were what you brought to the hip and keen 'mines bigger than yours' club. Ooh, you have a throttle. Etc.

None of that is the case anymore. Joysticks are now solely the domain of flight sim nuts, people with too much money and those weirdos who wander around CompUSA feeling up the demo units. You know who you are, Bob. Were they popular before because of great games like Wing Commander or in spite of them? The numbers don't say.

Coincidentally (or not - no one knows), flight games aren't popular anymore. They sold a million copies of Wing Commander III and twenty thousand or so of Freespace 2. Some would say that this is because Wing Commander 3 is great and Freespace 2 sucks harder than anything's ever sucked before. I will buy these people a coke. (The coke symbolizes being right.) Big companies don't see it that way, though. They just see numbers. No one in the futuristic year 2003 wants to buy AIR OR SPACE GAME, and no one wants to buy a joystick to play it with.

Hmmmmm., says Microsoft. We've developed the most expensive video game in history and no one wants to play it. What can we do? Well, the market numbers say no one owns a joystick anymore... but that everyone believes they need one to enjoy AIR OR SPACE GAME! Solution? Remove joystick mode from FreeLancer *entirely*. Promote the hell out of the fact that the game is controlled using only a mouse. Everyone has a mouse, everyone can play FreeLancer!

And that's the story of why you control FreeLancer with a mouse instead of a joystick. Now go complain about it until FreeLancer 2 comes out. Hopefully they'll give Trent funny-looking hair so you'll have something even stupider to complain about.
 
@BanditLoaf....Well I agree with you on the fact that freelancer has been "marketed". I just hope if they ever do make a freelancer 2 it will have a joystick control! That was all I was saying. (which freelancer 1 BARELY got made, so I doubt very seriously that freelancer 2 will happen!) And for your information, I don't think it is stupid what I said!! Now I expressed my opinion and you expressed yours for the most part I agree with what you are saying, but understand something, I am NOT complaining! I was just trying to start a conversation. I don't think that gives you or anybody else a right to flame me or anybody who has respoded to this post by sayig that what we were talking about is stupid! As far as "dealing" with something, I really don't have toi deal with anything! I just stated my opinion, if I want to play the game, fine, I will. If not, I won't! There is nothing to be "dealt" with! You seem to be irratated for some reason by this post, though frankly, I can't understand why.
 
I just hope if they ever do make a freelancer 2 it will have a joystick control!
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Hmm... do they have a joystick on the X-Box :)?

Seriously, I'm not really replying to your particular post - just the no-joystick-in-Freelancer complaint in general. Take everything I said less than seriously - I certainly didn't mean to offend any individual person (G)
 
Bandit LOAF said:
....Back before you kids today came up with your super special amazing weekly video card upgrades, joystick setups were what you brought to the hip and keen 'mines bigger than yours' club. Ooh, you have a throttle. Etc.
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ROFLMAO!!! :D :D


Bandit LOAF said:
Coincidentally (or not - no one knows), flight games aren't popular anymore. They sold a million copies of Wing Commander III and twenty thousand or so of Freespace 2. Some would say that this is because Wing Commander 3 is great and Freespace 2 sucks harder than anything's ever sucked before. I will buy these people a coke. (The coke symbolizes being right.) Big companies don't see it that way, though. They just see numbers. No one in the futuristic year 2003 wants to buy AIR OR SPACE GAME, and no one wants to buy a joystick to play it with.
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Well with one exception in the flight sim arena....MS's flight sim seems to have a considerable following, all over the world. There are a bunch of virtual airlines out there, some with thousands of members/pilots. I wouldnt say they managed to sell a million copies, however it is not as faded as one would think. The website "Simvation" is just one of these online places (one I am proud to be a member of) not too different from this very forum. Complete with user created stuff, forums, chat rooms, mp server lists, virtual airline links and tons of other stuff. The only difference between them is one is a space based sim, the other is atmospheric aircraft sim.


Bandid LOAF said:
Hmmmmm., says Microsoft. We've developed the most expensive video game in history and no one wants to play it. What can we do? Well, the market numbers say no one owns a joystick anymore... but that everyone believes they need one to enjoy AIR OR SPACE GAME! Solution? Remove joystick mode from FreeLancer *entirely*. Promote the hell out of the fact that the game is controlled using only a mouse. Everyone has a mouse, everyone can play FreeLancer!
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Im not so sure making the decision to completely remove an option to have j-stick control can be considered a "solution". I dont think it would have mattered either way, but I do bet it would have made a slight "dent" in them final numbers to FL's advantage. I think MS and DA took a gamble (as it usually goes) and got a nasty bite back leaving out the "OPTION". I dont read anywhere in articles or interviews where they even consider the option might help increase final bottom line numbers. In fact, as I read the various articles and interviews, it seems like MS and DA told everyone...in not so direct words..."Take it or leave it". Its amazing MS would take such a stance that no one owns a j-stick...given they created and maintain MS Flight Sims for the last 20 years, and even tout their line of j-sticks on little advertisements on the CD's for controlling the sim. (they also promote the flight yokes and rudder pedal units too). So I dont buy their reasons at all...however they do have one point...and a very good one...."Everyone has a mouse and keyboard, every PC has a mouse and keyboard, on laptops or desktops". That to me is the only bonafide argument they could possibly have regarding their decision to completely leave out the option to use a j-stick.
And I dont think having the option in there would have made the game that more expensive for them to develop considering the amount they spent making it to begin with, or affected the amount not sold. In all honesty, I really do think it would have sold far more numbers had the sim included the option.

But...given the nature of the way the sim is designed in flight characteristics, and weapon targeting/directional functions, would a j-stick have integreated into the sim and make any difference other than ability to control in another way?


And that's the story of why you control FreeLancer with a mouse instead of a joystick. Now go complain about it until FreeLancer 2 comes out. Hopefully they'll give Trent funny-looking hair so you'll have something even stupider to complain about.
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I have a feeling if they did make another...they will listen very carefully this time to those buying it, and at the very..very..very least, include the option. (hopes someone from MS or DA or the next big space sim maker is reading this)
 
Taking out the option was the only way they could force the issue - it was artificial PR... by telling everyone "NO JOYSTICKS", you create an uproar among the flight sim people that tells the rest of the buying public, ultimately, that it's a mouse-based game.

It's just really good marketing.
 
I should add...X-Box does indeed have a j-stick....on your controller (depending on the version of controller), you may even have two "mini" joysticks or what I call "thumb-sticks".
 
Hmm...maybe they should have included the option, and not said a word and focused on the mouse/keyboard control in the marketing. (??)

Either way to me..its a great game. At first it was very weird flying around with the mouse, then those good ol days of keyboard and mouse sims came out of the dusty background and within about 10 minutes playing FL, the mouse only control didnt matter.
 
webe123 said:
So, do you think that the Joystick is a necissity when you play a space sim such as wing commander??
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webe123 said:
So really, is a joystick necessary?? No.....but to me it is a HECK of a lot more fun!
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And that was all I was saying. You asked the question, is a joystick necessary to play a space sim like WC (i.e. Freelancer), and I answered...no. And since I don't want to recreate the joysticks-or-no-joystick debate here (or anywhere) I thought it best to just leave it at that and cite my reasons why I don't think a joystick is a necessity in a game like Freelancer.
 
Ein-7919 said:
...In fact, in the time these games are supposed to take place, I really doubt that a joystick would even exist. And to think that a flight stick is the epitome of control for space flight is really quite nieve (at least, that's how I see it).
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It would be silly to think they wouldnt exsist. Most likely each ship's cockpit would be tailored to the individual who owns/flies the thing. With that level of technology, implementing individual tastes and needs in functional control of a spacecraft would not be too much out of reach I think.
 
RFBurns said:
It would be silly to think they wouldnt exsist. Most likely each ship's cockpit would be tailored to the individual who owns/flies the thing. With that level of technology, implementing individual tastes and needs in functional control of a spacecraft would not be too much out of reach I think.
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True...I suppose I was limiting my thinking to how it is today with the assembly line method of constructing aircraft. But, I would hope to think that manufacturing techniques would have vastly improved as well, that far into the future.
 
It would be fantastic if vehicles in that time period, or perhaps sooner than that even, vehicles could be controlled by thought processes, in turn making reaction far faster than physically reaching for a flight stick or control pad. Something similar to what is depicted in the movie Fire Fox.

Haha! Even in the 24th century, in STTNG: Insurrection, the mighty Enterprise-E with its massive computer cores and fancy helm pannels, it has a manual flight stick!!! (Go Riker!!) :D
 
If I was to actually pilot a space fighter, it would have to have a keyboard installed, been playing that way since WC1. :) The girlfriend gave me a joystick of some sort, but it's still in the box.
 
Like I said on The Lancers Reactor, on one of the many Joystick threads, I prefer to use Joystick but if need be I would use the Keyboard. I had to use the Keyboard of the Amiga Version of WC I, becuase to rotate the fighter you had to press the trigger and then move the joystick left or right, and sometimes while you were rotating, the guns would fire and move left or right, which left you at a disadvantage if you had a Kilrathi on you tail or coming head on.
 
It would be fantastic if vehicles in that time period, or perhaps sooner than that even, vehicles could be controlled by thought processes, in turn making reaction far faster than physically reaching for a flight stick or control pad. Something similar to what is depicted in the movie Fire Fox.
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They mention that something like this is possible in False Colors.
 
Controlling a vehicle by thought isn't as speedy as you might think (ha, ha). Recall in Fire Fox how Clint has to think all of his mental commands in Russian? That takes soooo long. By contrast, you could probably execute a barrel roll with a minimal movement of the wrist.

The way the human body works is that signals travel from your skin and to your muscles basically to the spinal cord and back. Freakily enough, this means when you touch a hot stove, for example, your hand's motion away is being controlled by your spine, not your brain.

This is why reflexes are so much faster than conscious movement. When you learn to drive or fly or ride a bicycle or whatever, a lot of what you do becomes reflexive. You don't really have time to think, hrm, I'm leaning over a bit, maybe I should shift my weight so I don't fall flat on my face.

Thought control would probably have some benefits (it would free up your hands from having to toggle a bunch of auxiliary buttons... super-HOTAS?), and we can't really know how it would all work (maybe it would interpret your latent desires to KILL CRUSH DESTROY and trigger an AI for the next 10 minutes to execute the perfect combat manuevers to wipe out a squadron of bad guys), but the current control scheme is fairly close to optimal. They've tried replacing steering wheels in cars with joysticks, and they offer a lot more precise control (to the point where people get careless and start crashing into stuff just as much as before... sigh). Hey, do you think the military would still be using the same setup if countless hours of real and virtual flight experience didn't back it up?
 
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