Jason_Ryock
Vice Admiral
In all the seether fight was pretty bland though. Usually a full missile salvo on the first pass is enough to take him out.
I found that generally true about all the Ace Fights I flew in, though.
In all the seether fight was pretty bland though. Usually a full missile salvo on the first pass is enough to take him out.
In all the seether fight was pretty bland though. Usually a full missile salvo on the first pass is enough to take him out.
Jason_Ryock said:I found that generally true about all the Ace Fights I flew in, though.
I'm pretty sure it was mentioned in Victory Streak as well that the
Kilrathi had superior numbers, while Confed had superior fire-power and manoeuvrability.
For example: Baruk Starkiller in his little Salthi was very difficult to kill. You had to protect a Drayman and on the way back to the Claw Starkiller and 2 other Salthi (IIRC) ambush you. You have to keep the Drayman alive, and also kill the enemy fighters. But while the other Salthi go down quick Starkiller pulls some epic shit type flying, and if you damage him too much he runs away (his Salthi is far faster than your Scimitar). So it usually comes down to save the Drayman and let Starkiller escape, or focus on killing the ace while the other 2 Salthi waste the Drayman. Its not impossible to do both, but it dose require a bit of skill and luck (and remembering that the Salthi likes to turn left due to engine design).
Prophecy does not have those level aces to engage.
Personally I've always had more trouble with the bugs than with the Kats. WCP dose have aces, they're just not named (probably due to lack of intel about the bugs). Devil Ray's had ace variants (they were red ships IIRC) that IMO were hard to kill, they flight tactics were more varied and their ships seemed to be superior.
As for Thrakhath not killing Hobbes... yeah, there was the whole sleeper thing, which may or may not have existed at the time (SO1 was written before WC3 so the sleeper thing may have been a plot idea/twist by a seperate writer or maybe the writer had the idea in-mind when SO1 was done)...
Best example off the top of my head comes from the Man-Kzin wars book: Destiny's Forge.
Thrakhath would have been pretty pissed off when they were re-introduced on the bonnie heather , and the coward he found in a cell on a pirate base had been responsible for the destruction of the Sivar weapon and the execution of his father
Actually making calls to blair would make sense, since blair would have been his personal demon, and in the final mission of WC2, he wants to "Take care of that pest" himself.
When you do chase after him(which I did, because it would seem the right thing to do, Cobra was in need of medical attention and near death, and you are an ace fighter pilot, not a medic),
As it seems to work in a similar way with Kilrathi, the end result is that Thrakhath only had a single sleeper to work with, but was convincing enough to be accepted by Terran command.
As far as the whole movie side of this thread seems to go, I've a single question:
Any other StarLancer players here besides me catch the piece of WC movie footage used in SL's first newscast?
another side note; on the back of the PC deluxe CD deluxe edition of wing commander 2 you see an image(screenshot) of WC1-blair's face with the debriefing background that was normally paired with halcyons face, mentioning that he did not destroy the tiger's claw, that scene was not in the game! probaby been discussed before, but what's the story behind that screenshot?
I'm pretty sure this is just an old version of the WC2 intro using the original WC1 talking heads before those graphics were updated.
The bottom line though, is that when the 29th century encyclopeida (wikipedia?) of war history comes out, underneath the entry for "traitor" you'd better see a picture of Ralgha nar Hhallas.
Christ, even Benedict Arnold only betrayed one side.
2.) I found Paladin's reaction to Hobbes betrayal strange; in that it was non existent. These two were close friends in Wc2, remember, so when it turns out to be a bunch of BS, you think he'd at least have SOMETHING to say to Blair about it. Maybe it's cause he had other things on his mind. Maybe it's cause he's a general on his way towards being a senator and has learned to tune out concepts like friendship and loyalty. Probably a bit of both. Either way it was strange and somewhat distressing. Interestingly, both the novel and the wc3 script have Paladin on the flight deck with a mortally wounded Cobra, playing the role that Eisen filled in the game.
I also wonder what was with naming a character "Blair" in Freedom Flight but that's another topic...
Just meant to push the player that much harder, I suspect. I didn't much care for the bug aces, but that's mostly because my view is that leaving them unnamed left it a bit empty when you beat it. You down a Kilrathi ace, you can gloat about it, saying you downed Starkiller (or whichever ace you dropped). With the bugs, it's "I squashed a particularly persistant bug."
Something JUST occurred to me, although I'm sure at least one person is going to tell me to stop idiotically crossing my references...
Hobbes wasn't wearing a red shirt.
I think one of the problems is that we're not really talking about the same things -it's a question of terms. You say "metaphor", but you don't really mean a metaphor. A metaphor is like an analogy - so Wing Commander might be a metaphor for World War II. What you're talking about is not metaphors, but particular aspects of Wing Commander. These aspects in some cases are important to the games and the series as a whole, but none of the things you identify are so representative that they could be used as an analogy for what the entire series is about. You can't really say that Wing Commander is like a duel - those duels, when they do show up, are considered important... but if anything, Wing Commander as a whole is the exact opposite of a duel. The player does not go through a series of one-on-one duels, rather he goes through a gauntlet.Perhaps I did stretch a bit on that one, but I'm going to try to defend myself anyway.
I don't disagree with the fact that treason plays a large role in Wing Commander, but the parallel you're trying to set up does not exist. There's a very significant difference between Blair and Hobbes - Blair is accused of treason, but he is falsely accused. Hobbes isn't falsely accused - twice, he is accused of treason, and in each case, the accusation is completely true. When he returns to the Kilrathi in WC3, this does not undo his previous betrayal, it does not mean that he had never betrayed them. He did, he fought against the Kilrathi, he played a huge role in encouraging the rebellion on those Kilrathi planets in WC2, and he fought against the Kilrathi during some of the most crucial battles of the war. During all this time, he was not a double agent - he was a gunuine soldier of the Confederation. It's only following the trigger that he became a Kilrathi agent - so in effect, the trigger didn't undo his first treason, but added a second treason to the deal.You're right Wing Commander games are not about enemies being accused of treason (they're about blowing shit up in a big war with an interesting story between sorties). I was merely try to set up a parallel between Maverick and Hobbes. They were both accused of treason, but neither one of them betrayed their side: no one believed Blair about the Stealth fighters, and Hobbes' "defection" was part of a covert assignment. They were both accused of treason by their kind, but were really very patriotic and their circumstances were misunderstood. Treason also gained a large foothold in the overall theme of Wing Commander in Wing 2. There was Jazz, Minx, Hobbes, the rebel Kilrathi planets, the Mandarins. In Wing 3 Hobbes' betrays Confed and...well that's the topic of this thread. In Wing 4 Blair defects to the Border Worlds, Tolwyn betrays the very values that Confed defended in the war against the Kilrathi.
Again, I don't question that duty is something that appears in Wing Commander, and can sometimes be quite significant. But, it's not what Wing Commander as a whole is about. Duty is a relatively minor theme in Wing Commander. The conflict you mention, it does exist, but it's always a small deal. You don't hear characters anguishing about whether to choose duty or personal feelings - when the time comes to choose, the game is neither consistent, nor subtle in telling you which should be chosen. It's not even consistent in explaining particular choices - when you defect in WC4, it's clearly explained as a matter of personal feelings ("I'm not firing on the Captain!")... and then, when confronting Tolwyn, Blair claims that it was his duty...I disagree. Duty is the core issue of every solider in every war. Sometimes its more overt than others, but even in Wing 1 there are issues of duty and personal feelings conflicting. In Wing 3 Hobbes betrays the Confederation because it was the mission he was assigned (even if it did make him feel like shit). In Wing 4 Tolwyn sets up the Black Lance and engages in acts of war, because he believed that is was the best way to preserve the Confederation. The conflict of congruence of duty and personal feelings is there, sometimes overt, sometimes subtle.
Hehe, don't you think that's a bit silly? I could just as easily argue that if there was no duel with Thrakhath in WC3, the WC2 duel would be a unique feature of WC2. We can argue about what a game is about based on... well, what it's about. We can't argue about what a game is about based on what we'd like it to be.1. I never said it did come down to one final duel, I said it would in the scenario I outlined.
I think one of the problems is that we're not really talking about the same things -it's a question of terms. You say "metaphor", but you don't really mean a metaphor. A metaphor is like an analogy - so Wing Commander might be a metaphor for World War II. What you're talking about is not metaphors, but particular aspects of Wing Commander. These aspects in some cases are important to the games and the series as a whole, but none of the things you identify are so representative that they could be used as an analogy for what the entire series is about. You can't really say that Wing Commander is like a duel - those duels, when they do show up, are considered important... but if anything, Wing Commander as a whole is the exact opposite of a duel. The player does not go through a series of one-on-one duels, rather he goes through a gauntlet.
Also when deprived of the storyline almost all games come down to a bland "kill-everything-that's-shooting-at-you-until-they-either-stop-shooting-at-you-or-you-die." scenario.That is to say, in the purest gameplay terms, when deprived of the storyline, Wing Commander comes down to the single-player gauntlet in WC Academy or WC Armada - the player stands alone against increasing odds.
I don't disagree with the fact that treason plays a large role in Wing Commander, but the parallel you're trying to set up does not exist. There's a very significant difference between Blair and Hobbes - Blair is accused of treason, but he is falsely accused. Hobbes isn't falsely accused - twice, he is accused of treason, and in each case, the accusation is completely true. When he returns to the Kilrathi in WC3, this does not undo his previous betrayal, it does not mean that he had never betrayed them. He did, he fought against the Kilrathi, he played a huge role in encouraging the rebellion on those Kilrathi planets in WC2, and he fought against the Kilrathi during some of the most crucial battles of the war. During all this time, he was not a double agent - he was a gunuine soldier of the Confederation. It's only following the trigger that he became a Kilrathi agent - so in effect, the trigger didn't undo his first treason, but added a second treason to the deal.
Again, I don't question that duty is something that appears in Wing Commander, and can sometimes be quite significant. But, it's not what Wing Commander as a whole is about. Duty is a relatively minor theme in Wing Commander. The conflict you mention, it does exist, but it's always a small deal. You don't hear characters anguishing about whether to choose duty or personal feelings - when the time comes to choose, the game is neither consistent, nor subtle in telling you which should be chosen. It's not even consistent in explaining particular choices - when you defect in WC4, it's clearly explained as a matter of personal feelings ("I'm not firing on the Captain!")... and then, when confronting Tolwyn, Blair claims that it was his duty...
Hehe, don't you think that's a bit silly? I could just as easily argue that if there was no duel with Thrakhath in WC3, the WC2 duel would be a unique feature of WC2. We can argue about what a game is about based on... well, what it's about. We can't argue about what a game is about based on what we'd like it to be.
Nomad Terror said:I wonder if Hobbes would have faced trust issues trying to reintegrate into Kilrathi society had he lived long enough to do so.
The story of Wing Commander has had its fair share of issues of duty. Such as the ones you point out. I'm not saying that it tries to impart a moral, but like any war book/movie/game the issue of duty is still there. In greater or lesser qualities, but they permeate the very subject matter. And like other stories there is sometimes conflict with personal feelings.
He probably would have been the "Savior of Kilrah" if he lived thanks to leaking the plans for the Behemoth.
Although if he lived, and the war turned out the same way, it would be very awkward for him around any members of the Confederation (especially Blair...).
He probably would have been the "Savior of Kilrah" if he lived thanks to leaking the plans for the Behemoth.
I disagree, Kilrathi wouldn't rank a spy as high as that, it appears. Even if he was a great pilot, his main accomplishment was a result of treason, what is dishonorable.
Social awkwardness should be the least of his problems, since they would very likely execute him for treason - he was a Confed colonel, after all.
Nomad Terror said:Someone who killed as many Kilrathi as he did?
The first episode of Academy shows us quite frankly the Kilrathi's attitude towards treason. Even the Mandarin movement Thrakhath was just exploiting to get his hands on a Morningstar.
Double agents generally have to be the bad guy to everyone in order to perform their duty, and Hobbes was even worse than that. He willfully betrayed the Kilrathi. Even if it was an overlayed personality that caused him to do so, he still willfully did so.
The general populace would not have known about Thrakhath's scheme to get him deep inside Confed before reawakening his actual personality. Even post-WC3, did anyone ever get the chance to pass on the word that Hobbes was actually a double agent? Did the rest of the Kilrathi live on thinking that he was just purely a traitor to Kilrah? Would Thrakhath had made it known if they had lived? Would that change public opinion about him?
You can't be a traitor (in the basic sense) when you're following orders from your faction's leader.
We know little about the Kilrathi code of honor. It seems to be an "anything goes as long as it helps your side win" type thing.