The Game Cartel

Manboy

Manboy

Rear Admiral
Okay before I start I'm completely aware that posting this will clash with rule number 4 - however I have tried to contact the Administrators as advised, though the e-mail bounced back.

That said, I'm not publizicing any ordinary forum. It's a place for gamers who are interested in the game design process... Now Memebership is $50 (which I have payed), but just remember you will recieve a physical copy of the game when it's done.





What is The Game Cartel? http://thegamecartel.com/

Have you ever wanted to be part of the design process of a commercially released video game? Well now you can...

There's approximately 2,000 members at the moment but I'm honestly surprised that more people haven't jumped on board yet. The forums have been slow lately and whilst there have been quite a few intelligent and fun discussions, including what the genre of our game will be, there still isn't as much participation and conversation going on.

The Game Cartel basically an experiment. A game made by us, for us. I thought there should be no reason why more people aren't joining unless they simply don't know about it. Oh, and you will also recieve the game once it is complete in about a years time... Come join and make history....

Currently voting that will decide the genre will close on FEB 15, 2010. It has been left open this long because membership is still being built.

After that new votes will be posted and decided on every 2-3 weeks with some weeks containing more than one poll.

Hope to see some fresh faces soon.
 
So, it's like Standoff, Saga, and the like... except you have to pay money to join up? :p

You know, 2000 x $50 = $100,000. I don't know if this game will ever be made (I do know it sure won't be the game that most people who join up actually wanted - if even the genre is something you gotta vote on, then by the end of the process, everyone will be dissatisfied), but it sounds like someone's making a lot of money out of this.
 
I'm amazed at how cautious people are about this. Everytime I mention it people almost immediately think it's a scam. Well....I do understand why - this is the net after all. From what I can personally tell it is going to be made, and it is completely legit.

The money gained from membership fees goes straight back into funding the project. Plus Alienware, Hi-Tech Tattoos, Gamer Grub and Pwned.com are all buisiness affiliates, and I highly doubt they're trying to scam anyone... :)

Whilst voting is the way that the major decisions wll be made (how else can it be done?), members are encouraged to submit design docs (I've submitted a bare-bones story so far) and participate in the forums, so it's not as drab as click on "yes" or "no". It's been interesting so far, just a bit quiet for my liking. The more people that join, the bigger the game will be. For instance, there was clear indication that the game would be released on the consoles as well as PC. But because of the low participation so far the budget may be a bit tighter than originally aniticpated, making a PC only release more likely.

This is the first time that gamers have an active voice in nearly every element of the design process - it's just a shame that hardly anyone is speaking up...
 
I didn't say this is a scam as such. A scam is when somebody wants you to put in your money, and then you don't get whatever you were promised. In this case, all they're promising is participation, so clearly you get what you paid for.

But that's all you get - while they get the money. And yes, they may indeed spend all the money on the project, I'm not accusing them of dishonesty. I am, instead, accusing everyone who signed up for this of basic stupidity. Because the people behind this, they're a game developer, so spending money on the project means getting a salary - while you get worse than nothing.

You wanna "make your mark on gaming history"? You don't have to pay for it - it's never, ever been easier to make your own game. Not only can you make great mods that are totally different from the original games, you can even make games from scratch. There are game engines available for free out there, even for commercial purposes. Heck, you get the bloody Unreal Engine licensed for $99 dollars - that's merely twice the cost of signing up for this silly thing. If you genuinely want to be involved in making a good game, there has never been a better time for it.

More importantly, though, it's not gonna work! The result, if there is a result, will be an utter piece of crap. And the more people join up, the more crap it will be. There's that famous saying - a camel is a horse designed by a committee. Well, this is much, much more than a committee. When you have more than three people involved in making the most important decisions in a project, you're taking a risk that the project will lack clear direction. When you have more than ten people involved in making the most important decisions in a project, you're guaranteed that the project will lack direction. When you have more than a thousand people involved in making the most imporant decisions in a project...

...You're making Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2.

Don't get me wrong, that's a great game - but my point is, you will not see an original, amazing game come out of this effort. All attempts at originality will be brought down by sheer voting numbers, and in the end, the design will be a pound-for-pound clone of whatever the greatest hit game at the time was - because that's what 999 out of 1000 users will vote for. And there's more - firstly, you can't make a decent Call of Duty clone for $100,000 - I could probably make one in Poland for $1,000,000, but on US salaries, even that wouldn't be enough. Secondly, by the time this gets anywhere, Call of Duty will be long forgotten, and there will be another hit out there. So, the design will twist halfway through to become whatever new game has wowed your two thousand members. Only, it'll still be Call of Duty - just with... oh, I don't know, Gears of War 3 mixed in on top of it. And this will repeat, again, and again.

In conclusion... the great attraction of this project, as I understand, is that somebody wants you to pay for being one of the 1,000 monkeys that sat down to write Shakespeare. And this is a good deal?

I'll be happy to mail you a banana - but that's all the support this gets from me :p.
 
I didn't say this is a scam as such. A scam is when somebody wants you to put in your money, and then you don't get whatever you were promised. In this case, all they're promising is participation, so clearly you get what you paid for.
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No, like I said, you also recieve a physical copy of the game once it's done - and $50us is less than half a game where I'm from.

But that's all you get - while they get the money. And yes, they may indeed spend all the money on the project, I'm not accusing them of dishonesty. I am, instead, accusing everyone who signed up for this of basic stupidity. Because the people behind this, they're a game developer, so spending money on the project means getting a salary - while you get worse than nothing.
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You seem to be hung up on the money situation. The thing is about being an adult is that you can put things into persperctive. It's just money. I'm not expecting everyone to feel the same but for $50 I get to observe this unique process ( I say unique becuase at this stage due to the *overwhelming* amount of cynisicm the project is experiencing, it will probably be the last time anything like this is attempted), participate in intelligent discussions on how the whole thing will work and play AND I get to own and have fun with the final product.

More importantly, though, it's not gonna work! The result, if there is a result, will be an utter piece of crap. And the more people join up, the more crap it will be. There's that famous saying - a camel is a horse designed by a committee. Well, this is much, much more than a committee. When you have more than three people involved in making the most important decisions in a project, you're taking a risk that the project will lack clear direction. When you have more than ten people involved in making the most important decisions in a project, you're guaranteed that the project will lack direction. When you have more than a thousand people involved in making the most imporant decisions in a project....
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The whole idea is to become vocal and gain support with your own unique and workable ideas. This is not just about putting up your hand when it's time to vote, well you could do that but then I agree with you that it would be a waste of money - participation is what The Game Cartel offers that other games dont. It's as simple as that. And yes I have no problem spending $50 as a once-off to be a part of something different for a while.

Don't get me wrong, that's a great game - but my point is, you will not see an original, amazing game come out of this effort. All attempts at originality will be brought down by sheer voting numbers, and in the end, the design will be a pound-for-pound clone of whatever the greatest hit game at the time was - because that's what 999 out of 1000 users will vote for. And there's more - firstly, you can't make a decent Call of Duty clone for $100,000 - I could probably make one in Poland for $1,000,000, but on US salaries, even that wouldn't be enough. Secondly, by the time this gets anywhere, Call of Duty will be long forgotten, and there will be another hit out there. So, the design will twist halfway through to become whatever new game has wowed your two thousand members. Only, it'll still be Call of Duty - just with... oh, I don't know, Gears of War 3 mixed in on top of it. And this will repeat, again, and again.
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I get your point, and so does everyone else who has joined thus far. You think we want to play the same old game over and over? You're preaching to the choir here...and seem to be happy pointing out that that everyone is a mundane fool.
 
Manboy said:
You seem to be hung up on the money situation. The thing is about being an adult is that you can put things into persperctive. It's just money.
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I appreciate the fact that $50 isn't that much to spend - but I'd be pointing out the same thing if it were $5. What I'm getting hung up on is not the money as such, but that you can do much better without paying a dime. Direct participation in any kind of fan project utterly crushes, beats, and impales on a pike this thing you're so enthusiastic about.

I get your point, and so does everyone else who has joined thus far. You think we want to play the same old game over and over? You're preaching to the choir here...and seem to be happy pointing out that that everyone is a mundane fool.
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I don't think that everyone are fools, far from it - I believe that the collective "everyone" has a far better taste than most "intellectual" critics and the like. However, I don't believe in everyone having something worthwhile to say on every subject. There's a damn good reason why I don't spend my days talking about how to build houses - I have no idea about it. If somebody wanted me to design my dream home (and even promised to build it), I'd wind up googling up an existing design. Not out of laziness, but out of desire to get the best I can. That's exactly what I expect to happen here. Besides this, any time such things are put to a vote, you wind up with horrid, horrid compromises.

This isn't a chance to get your dream game designed - at best, this is a chance to watch in dismay as your dream game design collapses into a worthless mess when everyone else tries to throw their dream game into the mix.
 
Quarto said:
What I'm getting hung up on is not the money as such, but that you can do much better without paying a dime. Direct participation in any kind of fan project utterly crushes, beats, and impales on a pike this thing you're so enthusiastic about.
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I'm sure it does. I have however not had the oppurtunity, nor do I possess the technical skills required to be an active part of a fan project. I'm enthusiastic about it because I'm now part of the design process for a retail video game and, well because what would be the point in starting a brand new topic about it if I really didn't give a crap.


I don't think that everyone are fools, far from it - I believe that the collective "everyone" has a far better taste than most "intellectual" critics and the like. However, I don't believe in everyone having something worthwhile to say on every subject. There's a damn good reason why I don't spend my days talking about how to build houses - I have no idea about it. If somebody wanted me to design my dream home (and even promised to build it), I'd wind up googling up an existing design. Not out of laziness, but out of desire to get the best I can. That's exactly what I expect to happen here. Besides this, any time such things are put to a vote, you wind up with horrid, horrid compromises.

This isn't a chance to get your dream game designed - at best, this is a chance to watch in dismay as your dream game design collapses into a worthless mess when everyone else tries to throw their dream game into the mix.
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I'm under no allusions that my "dream game" will be made with this project, nor did I ever suggest it would be. It's the chance to do something a bit different online and maybe make a few new friends who have the same interest as me. Plus I get to play a game that I had some input in, no matter how insignificant.
 
I dunno...

Every time I think about the proposal, the old cliche "too many cooks spoil the broth" comes to mind. Doubly so given my time helping test Jumpgate in its various stages, beta and release, when hundreds of people had dozens of ideas, and many of them clashed with one another. And as I said, that was hundreds, not the thousands they're aiming for.
 
Manboy said:
The Game Cartel basically an experiment. A game made by us, for us. I thought there should be no reason why more people aren't joining unless they simply don't know about it. Oh, and you will also recieve the game once it is complete in about a years time... Come join and make history....

The more people that join, the bigger the game will be. For instance, there was clear indication that the game would be released on the consoles as well as PC. But because of the low participation so far the budget may be a bit tighter than originally aniticpated, making a PC only release more likely.

This is the first time that gamers have an active voice in nearly every element of the design process - it's just a shame that hardly anyone is speaking up...
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Not meaning to just come and thrash you, but this seems like a pretty gullible thing to be excited about. Good golly: "Made by us, for us." Quarto already went into this in greater detail, but you can't make a single game that satisfies a thousand random people. You can't make a game that satisfies ten random people. If everyone is voting on different aspects of the game, the people who don't vote for the winning option are not getting what they want. It gets worse and worse as more decisions are made and more people are added. Everything isn't automatically better just because it's a democracy. Especially when you get down into the tiny details of anything, you need leadership and direction, not a million voices.

If you want to make your mark on gaming history, become an active fan of Wing Commander and become immortalized like the dozens of Wingnuts referenced in Star*Soldier, the Prophecy map, novel characters and so on.
 
Death said:
I dunno...

Every time I think about the proposal, the old cliche "too many cooks spoil the broth" comes to mind. Doubly so given my time helping test Jumpgate in its various stages, beta and release, when hundreds of people had dozens of ideas, and many of them clashed with one another. And as I said, that was hundreds, not the thousands they're aiming for.
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ChrisReid said:
Not meaning to just come and thrash you, but this seems like a pretty gullible thing to be excited about. Good golly: "Made by us, for us." Quarto already went into this in greater detail, but you can't make a single game that satisfies a thousand random people. .
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Eh, I'm bad at this. I don't think any of the current members truly believe that their vision of what they want the project to be is what it is actually going to become. We're all rational adults who understand the system that's in place. We also know that by providing detailed information about or ideas on the forums we can then drum up support which will then turn into votes - well that's the theory anyway...
 
You seem to be making the common mistake of confusing "don't understand" and "understand but disagree".

It's not that the skeptics, detractors, and otherwise "non-believers" don't understand what the project is trying to do, it's that we don't see how the project can end with anything but a lot of people wallowing in freakish misery. :p
 
Death said:
It's not that the skeptics, detractors, and otherwise "non-believers" don't understand what the project is trying to do, it's that we don't see how the project can end with anything but a lot of people wallowing in freakish misery. :p
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Fair 'nuff :)
 
I kind of see what you are getting out, but to me, the whole idea lacks much wow factor considering that not much of my ideas are actually going into the game aside from my two cents about how the company should design certain parts of the game.

I'm also a very picky gamer, so it would probably be a waste of $50 as I probably would not like the game even if it was really well built in all aspects.
 
JasonRocZ said:
"I just ate a big red candle" :p
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Potentially the most sensible assertion here!

I have to say I agree with Quarto, this sounds like a good idea, but ultimately anything that is designed by committee is a failure, you only have to look at any government organised review to see that (british rail's privatisation anyone?)
 
No, that sounds different - Interstellar Marines seems to just rely on players for financing. If it's anything like Mount & Blade (which followed a similar model), players get to say whatever they want at the forum, and sometimes the developer will take note... but ultimately, the design is still all up to the developer.
 
there has been quite a lot of user instigated features in mount and blade - but i'd argue that whether a user bought the game during development, after "retail" or indeed just played the demo has had minimal effect on the the users power to sway the developer.
 
No, there's a very big difference. A company that relies on players for financing will spend more time on their projects (Mount & Blade is a great case in point - it's been in development for half a decade or more), and it has to be more communicative towards the player, because in some ways, every time the developer talks with them, he's marketing the game. His behaviour can encourage or it can turn off potential buyers. Even there, the developer is mainly trying to make the game he envisioned, not meet the demands of the players (especially since players contradict each other). For example, no matter how many people whined about it, Taleworlds always refused to add multiplayer to Mount & Blade (until the upcoming Warband expansion... which is being developed on a typical developer-publisher relationship, different to the original game).

This is totally different to a normal retail game - even the most communicative developers will use the forums mainly to talk to the players, rather than with the players. They're willing to discuss why a given feature works the way it does, but it's extremely rare for them to cave in the face of players wishing that something be done differently. They've got schedules and budgets to keep, they just can't afford to make spur-of-the-moment changes (they get enough of those from the publisher in any case).
 
Well, I don't want to be too pesimistic, but I for one belive this game will NEVER be finished. Why? well because 90% of the votings "do you wish to add a [...] feature" will give yes answer, while 99% of votings "do you wish to remove a [...] feature" will give no answer
 
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