TCS-Confederation Development

Miracynonyx100

Swabbie
Banned
Bandit LOAF would probably be the best qualified here, but anybody who has something I'd like to hear it reasonably speaking.

Around 2655 - 2656 they found the shipyard that created the Sivar Dreadnought... they ultimately found the design plans for it's weapon.

They refined the weapon so it could be targeted and aimed at ships -- possibly weakened a bit.

They built a ship yard... typically a five year affair...

They built an entire ship design, weeding through all sorts of problems (when you design something you need to make all sorts of changes and revisions since the original design doesn't work out as well as the finished product)...

TCS-Confederation Built

2660/2661 - TCS Concordia built


How did they build it that fast? It sounds like a total rush job.

Any insight here?


V Kent
 
Bandit LOAF would probably be the best qualified here, but anybody who has something I'd like to hear it reasonably speaking.

Around 2655 - 2656 they found the shipyard that created the Sivar Dreadnought... they ultimately found the design plans for it's weapon.

They refined the weapon so it could be targeted and aimed at ships -- possibly weakened a bit.

They built a ship yard... typically a five year affair...

They built an entire ship design, weeding through all sorts of problems (when you design something you need to make all sorts of changes and revisions since the original design doesn't work out as well as the finished product)...

TCS-Confederation Built

2660/2661 - TCS Concordia built


How did they build it that fast? It sounds like a total rush job.

Any insight here?


V Kent

Amazing things are possible in wartime. Witness the scaleup of US fleet carrier production coming out of a major depression into World War II. Not to mention the raising and rebuilding of many of the battleships sunk at Pearl Harbor fast enough to get them out in time to participate in Guadalcanal and Leyte Gulf.

As for it being a rush job - well, the PTC certainly didn't end up perfect, did it? Any weapon that risks blowing up the whole ship every time you fire it ends up being a limited-utility desperation weapon. If you had to roll the dice every time you fired a weapon - not just on an investment like a Confederation-class dreadnaught, but on its complement of 120 fighters as well, it's a pretty imperfect product.
 
Around 2655 - 2656 they found the shipyard that created the Sivar Dreadnought... they ultimately found the design plans for it's weapon.

The Phase Transit Cannon was based on a study of the recovered hull of the Sivar, not information captured at the shipyard. The shipyard which built the ship was destroyed shortly after The Secret Missions, in the extra set of missions included in Super Wing Commander.

They built a ship yard... typically a five year affair...

Here's the fault in your analysis. There's no reason to assume that they built a new shipyard instead of using an existing facility. (Also, your reference is wrong - End Run claims that it takes *ten* years to build a new shipyard.) It takes five years to build a new carrier... and there's six years between the destruction of the Sivar (2655) and when we first see the Concordia (2661).

As for it being a rush job - well, the PTC certainly didn't end up perfect, did it? Any weapon that risks blowing up the whole ship every time you fire it ends up being a limited-utility desperation weapon. If you had to roll the dice every time you fired a weapon - not just on an investment like a Confederation-class dreadnaught, but on its complement of 120 fighters as well, it's a pretty imperfect product.

Your basic thinking here is correct - clearly, the Confederation-class wasn't perfect - we should be clear about the Phase Transit Cannon. All we're told in the Kilrathi Saga manual is that the ship was retired because of 'continual problems' with the weapon... the story that they would randomly blow up when used is something fans came up with. I believe it comes from an exaggeration of events in Special Operations 2, where Angel warns that the cannon can blow up the Concordia's power plant when it doesn't have sufficient power... but this isn't some random occurrence, its an example of the weapon being deliberately used when it's known that it shouldn't be fired.
 
Your basic thinking here is correct - clearly, the Confederation-class wasn't perfect - we should be clear about the Phase Transit Cannon. All we're told in the Kilrathi Saga manual is that the ship was retired because of 'continual problems' with the weapon... the story that they would randomly blow up when used is something fans came up with. I believe it comes from an exaggeration of events in Special Operations 2, where Angel warns that the cannon can blow up the Concordia's power plant when it doesn't have sufficient power... but this isn't some random occurrence, its an example of the weapon being deliberately used when it's known that it shouldn't be fired.

Ah, thanks for the correction. I haven't read the novels, so to the degree they have anything to add about the PTC, I have no idea.

Having sufficient power for the PTC under combat conditions could be a chronic problem for the Confederation-class, though. Given that it's a capship-to-capship weapon, it may have been hard to guarantee sufficient power to the cannon at all times considering that the dreadnaught is probably getting slammed by AMG fire and torpedoes during the engagement, and the Concordia, at least from WC2 to SO2, seems to have been in the bad habit of not having many escort ships.
 
Your basic thinking here is correct - clearly, the Confederation-class wasn't perfect - we should be clear about the Phase Transit Cannon. All we're told in the Kilrathi Saga manual is that the ship was retired because of 'continual problems' with the weapon... the story that they would randomly blow up when used is something fans came up with. I believe it comes from an exaggeration of events in Special Operations 2, where Angel warns that the cannon can blow up the Concordia's power plant when it doesn't have sufficient power... but this isn't some random occurrence, its an example of the weapon being deliberately used when it's known that it shouldn't be fired.

I was willing to believe that the TCS Confed, TCS Concordia, and the fabled TCS Agamemnon were all built at around the same time, completed and launched in very rapid succession, and christened at seperate times. Its not like they only had ONE shipyard donated to this particular ship design. My guess is they wanted such an imposing design filling the front lines as quickly as possible.

Yeah the whole faulty PTC always left a sour taste in my mouth. All this criticism came from Angel's statement seemed somewhat unfounded. I always thought that the PTC was a weapon that put such a strain on the power core that it took a long time to recharge and cool down. To fire it before the cool down was completed risked the ship's destruction, but I refuse to believe that the Confed class dreadnought had a weapon on it that was that much of a risk. If you fire it once, you risk losing your ship? I don't think so, Tolwyn wouldn't have used it as much as he did in the game, certainly not against a corvette.

As for retiring the class... Loaf, was the class retired or did they just stop building it? I mean the ship was an imposing ship even without the PTC.

seems to have been in the bad habit of not having many escort ships.

This also bothers me. In Standoff, we see the Concordia with a large fleet around here. In WC2, it says on his door that Tolwyn is the commander of the 7th fleet... well wheres the fleet? We have one destroyer, which seems to disappear when the Concordia is under fire, where are the other ships?
 
I was willing to believe that the TCS Confed, TCS Concordia, and the fabled TCS Agamemnon were all built at around the same time, completed and launched in very rapid succession, and christened at seperate times. Its not like they only had ONE shipyard donated to this particular ship design. My guess is they wanted such an imposing design filling the front lines as quickly as possible.

Yes, it's quite probable that more than one drydock was dedicated to the ship. Given the five year figure for building a new spacecraft carrier we know there must be at least two docks building Bengals - since the Kipling was put to space only a year after the Tiger's Claw.

(... also, a rare double-anal correction: the TCS *Agamemnon* was a heavy cruiser mentioned in the Wing Commander IV novelization. The TCS *Armageddon* is a ship mentioned in Victory Streak that fans seem to think has to be a Confederation-class dreadnaught for some reason... in fact, we don't even know if it's a carrier.)

Yeah the whole faulty PTC always left a sour taste in my mouth. All this criticism came from Angel's statement seemed somewhat unfounded. I always thought that the PTC was a weapon that put such a strain on the power core that it took a long time to recharge and cool down. To fire it before the cool down was completed risked the ship's destruction, but I refuse to believe that the Confed class dreadnought had a weapon on it that was that much of a risk. If you fire it once, you risk losing your ship? I don't think so, Tolwyn wouldn't have used it as much as he did in the game, certainly not against a corvette.

The idea that the Phase Transit Cannon was inherently dangerous didn't enter into anyones minds until the Kilrathi Saga manual referenced their being retired... so, yeah, the modern speculation based on the Special Operations 2 scene was entirely unfounded.

(... and the obligatory note about the 'corvette' - despite what the dialogue says, the ship the Concordia blows up is actually a Fralthra *heavy cruiser*. It wasn't the last example of cut-scene ship misidentification... Super Wing Commander begins with an attack against a 'Fralthi target' which turns out to be a Snakeir!)

As for retiring the class... Loaf, was the class retired or did they just stop building it? I mean the ship was an imposing ship even without the PTC.

The Phase Transit Cannon was "retired" in 2665, according to the Kilrathi Saga manual. Since we see the Concordia in service through 2669 (using the gun through at least 2667) this must mean only that *production* of the weapon had ceased.

This also bothers me. In Standoff, we see the Concordia with a large fleet around here. In WC2, it says on his door that Tolwyn is the commander of the 7th fleet... well wheres the fleet? We have one destroyer, which seems to disappear when the Concordia is under fire, where are the other ships?

The door actually says that he's commander of the *14th Fleet*. In reality, a fleet doesn't travel in a giant mass - it's the group of ships responsible for an entire theater. The United States has a different numbered fleet (and chain of command) for each area of the world (ie, the 3rd Fleet is the north and east Pacific Ocean). Presumably the 14th Fleet is responsible for some portion of the Enigma Sector... and Tolwyn has his flag aboard the Concordia (he's also her captain). Concordia and her escort/s form some individual Task Force group (depending on mission).

Ah, thanks for the correction. I haven't read the novels, so to the degree they have anything to add about the PTC, I have no idea.

It isn't mentioned once. :) Both the addition and the removal of the Phase Transit Cannon to the continuity were purely cosmological... it was created to deal with people demanding to know what happened to the Sivar's technology and removed because there's not really anything fun about having an incredible supership which scores all the hard kills for you.
 
Carrier Groups

I might also add that even today with carrier battle groups it is very very rare to actually see other ships in the battle group or the task force from the deck of any one ship. Given the range of modern offensive and defensive systems and radar it makes sense to spread the group out to cover more territory and provide a "defense in depth" so to speak. So it's entirely possible that's what is happening in the game from a tactical viewpoint (ignoring storyline, game play, and engine limitation factors).
 
I might also add that even today with carrier battle groups it is very very rare to actually see other ships in the battle group or the task force from the deck of any one ship. Given the range of modern offensive and defensive systems and radar it makes sense to spread the group out to cover more territory and provide a "defense in depth" so to speak. So it's entirely possible that's what is happening in the game from a tactical viewpoint (ignoring storyline, game play, and engine limitation factors).

Good point! We do know that the Concordia has only one escort destroyer at points in Wing Commander II, but this is probably exactly why we don't always see it.
 
Clearly I stand corrected on a number of points. Thanks everyone, this is good reading...
 
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