Standoff`s "new" ships
- Thread starter TCSTigersClaw
- Start date
C
Chad Hart
Guest
Hahaha..
Very funny. Instead of considering what I had to say, you drew something silly, almost as silly as the 'Tiger Claw' in the 'Wing Commander Movie'.
This is what I had in mind:
And yes, it is common sense to not use the movie and cartoon. The premise both the cartoon and the movie contradict each other, let alone the games, and even the best of the Wing Commander books.
And LOAF, what I have "against you" is from experience from limited posting a long time ago and lurking from before then and onward. You seem to have almost a dictorial pull on what is what and when and how and why when people ask questions. I'd direct people to read posts regarding the Tiger's Claw and LOAF's crazy synthensis of all material to come up with something like the following: "The Bengal class carrier was a pre-war design. The Tiger's Claw (..or .. Tiger Claw?) was the first of a new and improved design. It was also the last, as all later were a bit shorter."
This all seems to come from the "Wing Commander Confederation Handbook (based on movie stuff, if what I can gather about it is correct) and the whole "well the class was Bengal but why was the Tiger's Claw the first launched?" debacle. There are other issues like this that are explained away and synthensized into the point of making nonsense. I myself am I reader of military fiction and military non-fiction - though Wing Commander isn't "real life", I would point out that the author of End Run and Fleet Action knows quite a bit about the workings of the military and he approached his books with good hunches and assumptions based on how he knew things to work in the world we life.
No, the Tiger's Claw was not a pre-war design. The Tiger's Claw was the first Bengal class strike carrier to be launched, despite not being the name-sake of the class, because:
Ships are named and assigned hull numbers when they are authorized and planned to be built, not in the order they are finished. Hull number does not reflect order of completion but order of authorization.
Ships have problems when being built - especially new classes of ships, especially the first ship in a class. Problems encountered but solved during construction of the lead ship often can be incorportated into other ships not nearly as far along in construction and thus they will actually be farther along than the lead ship.
It is also not common for ships, uncompleted, to be pulled aside in the valuable fitting out berths for higher priority work - perhaps doing emergency work on those peice of crap Rangers. The Bengal may have been pulled out of its fitting out berths for such higher priority work while the Tiger's Claw and the other ships weren't shuffled around.
Depending on what "launching" means, the Tiger's Claw may have been the first ship actually ready for service. Or instead it may have been the first ship out of the construction dock and out of the final fitting out area. Ships have to undergo trials before they are deemed ready. The Bengal may have been undergoing trails while feeding data back to the yards to correct things on the undone ships and trying to correct its own problems- and the Tiger's Claw sails through with the advantage of experience learned working on the earlier ships.
Compare this to whatever "Star Trek Revision-esque" crap you've ever read or heard LOAF talk about when dealing with ships.
And no, the Aces suck. They go overboard too - but in the "Uber-Super-Duper-Ship-One-Off-Unique" kind of way and into the Crazy Scenario department.
I love the real Navy and that's apart of why I like Wing Commander and appreciate the careful thought, even though there was no "bible", that goes into the books and games. Lots of things get posted around without this appreciation for real critical thinking about the hows, whys, and what's of the WC universe.
I wonder if Concordia is still around, she was a good poster.
Very funny. Instead of considering what I had to say, you drew something silly, almost as silly as the 'Tiger Claw' in the 'Wing Commander Movie'.
This is what I had in mind:
And yes, it is common sense to not use the movie and cartoon. The premise both the cartoon and the movie contradict each other, let alone the games, and even the best of the Wing Commander books.
And LOAF, what I have "against you" is from experience from limited posting a long time ago and lurking from before then and onward. You seem to have almost a dictorial pull on what is what and when and how and why when people ask questions. I'd direct people to read posts regarding the Tiger's Claw and LOAF's crazy synthensis of all material to come up with something like the following: "The Bengal class carrier was a pre-war design. The Tiger's Claw (..or .. Tiger Claw?) was the first of a new and improved design. It was also the last, as all later were a bit shorter."
This all seems to come from the "Wing Commander Confederation Handbook (based on movie stuff, if what I can gather about it is correct) and the whole "well the class was Bengal but why was the Tiger's Claw the first launched?" debacle. There are other issues like this that are explained away and synthensized into the point of making nonsense. I myself am I reader of military fiction and military non-fiction - though Wing Commander isn't "real life", I would point out that the author of End Run and Fleet Action knows quite a bit about the workings of the military and he approached his books with good hunches and assumptions based on how he knew things to work in the world we life.
No, the Tiger's Claw was not a pre-war design. The Tiger's Claw was the first Bengal class strike carrier to be launched, despite not being the name-sake of the class, because:
Ships are named and assigned hull numbers when they are authorized and planned to be built, not in the order they are finished. Hull number does not reflect order of completion but order of authorization.
Ships have problems when being built - especially new classes of ships, especially the first ship in a class. Problems encountered but solved during construction of the lead ship often can be incorportated into other ships not nearly as far along in construction and thus they will actually be farther along than the lead ship.
It is also not common for ships, uncompleted, to be pulled aside in the valuable fitting out berths for higher priority work - perhaps doing emergency work on those peice of crap Rangers. The Bengal may have been pulled out of its fitting out berths for such higher priority work while the Tiger's Claw and the other ships weren't shuffled around.
Depending on what "launching" means, the Tiger's Claw may have been the first ship actually ready for service. Or instead it may have been the first ship out of the construction dock and out of the final fitting out area. Ships have to undergo trials before they are deemed ready. The Bengal may have been undergoing trails while feeding data back to the yards to correct things on the undone ships and trying to correct its own problems- and the Tiger's Claw sails through with the advantage of experience learned working on the earlier ships.
Compare this to whatever "Star Trek Revision-esque" crap you've ever read or heard LOAF talk about when dealing with ships.
And no, the Aces suck. They go overboard too - but in the "Uber-Super-Duper-Ship-One-Off-Unique" kind of way and into the Crazy Scenario department.
I love the real Navy and that's apart of why I like Wing Commander and appreciate the careful thought, even though there was no "bible", that goes into the books and games. Lots of things get posted around without this appreciation for real critical thinking about the hows, whys, and what's of the WC universe.
I wonder if Concordia is still around, she was a good poster.
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
Common sense is a fine buzz word, but I'm not really sure how it applies here. Why is it common sense to ignore the sources that we 'don't like'? I mean, I can even understand the movie -- it was really, really bad and that's offended a bunch of people for some reason... (I don't see how a little two-day diversion in the timeline hurts anything, but lets skip that for now)... but Academy? It was produced by the same people doing the games at the time and it did an amazing job of bringing back the old continuity. How amazing was it to see Scimitars on TV in 1996? Is there any reason to 'ignore' it other than you just plain not liking it?
Of course I have a dictatorial pull, I'm an administrator! </Sarcasm>
I don't think that's the issue here. Through my past actions, my opinion has become very respected by much of the community -- for better or for worse... and for whatever reason, that rubs a lot of people the wrong way. It's not something to lash out at me over, though... I've personally never, ever been against anyone speaking their mind on this type of issue.
The Confederation Handbook is (essentially) the 'manual' to the movie -- it was done by the same group of individuals who did all the game manuals and official guides.
As for the novels, I certainly love them more than pretty much any Wing Commander source... but the fact remains that they're cheap for-contract paperbacks, when the movie was written and directed by Chris Roberts. Not that it's better -- it's far, far worse... but it can't be excluded on that account.
It's... significantly worse? Even your sarcastic version of my 'crap' was only a sentence (that did nothing more than repeat something from an existing source) -- you've concocted six confusing parapgraphs with the express purpose of contradicting an idea you 'don't like'. How is that 'common sense'? How is 'the Tiger's Claw is a redesign of an existing class of ships' any more painful than this confusing set of entirely unsupported variables and re-definitions?
(It's fun that you called the Victory Ranger-class, though. Guess who invented that?)
TCSTigersClaw
Greek Special Forces B' Company "Naoussa" 2007-200
Am....where did you .....get that ????? All of us would like to have a look at this ! 
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
Captain Johnny sent it over a few days ago -- I'm in the process of inputting it and the unedited Prophecy script!
TCSTigersClaw
Greek Special Forces B' Company "Naoussa" 2007-200
Thats great LOAF....Im not sure (Ive got to search my old HD) I think I had a Prophecy script somewere...it was a lot different from the game...Im not sure If I remember correct maybe it was the Movie script...my memory is not so good.Anyway 
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
TCSTigersClaw said:Thats great LOAF....Im not sure (Ive got to search my old HD) I think I had a Prophecy script somewere...it was a lot different from the game...Im not sure If I remember correct maybe it was the Movie script...my memory is not so good.Anyway
Somebody posted a fake 'real Prophecy script' online a few years back... Mark Day confirmed that it was just fanfic -- I've been working since then to get a copy of the script, and... I finally did! So, yay.
TCSTigersClaw
Greek Special Forces B' Company "Naoussa" 2007-200
Keep up the good wooooork.I hope you finish someday the Encyclopedia too ! you haven`t abandoned it....do you ? 
TCSTigersClaw
Greek Special Forces B' Company "Naoussa" 2007-200
CPL Hades forced all you guys above 2000 posts to have that avatar ? hehehehe LOL 
Thats good,now you have to pick an Avatar by yourself Quarto,all these years looks like you were bored to pick one.
Thats good,now you have to pick an Avatar by yourself Quarto,all these years looks like you were bored to pick one.
C
Chad Hart
Guest
hmm
I'd go and look for posts previously which said there was no centeralized source of back fiction (IE: Bible) for Wing Commander when it was started other than basically what we were presented with in the games and boxes, hence some things didn't end up hashing out, and hence Wing Commander wasn't as unified in continuity as some other sci-fi (I'd say it was) and its a wonder it even fits together at all, but I won't. But you know the info about the Bible was new.
If what I said about the Tiger's Claw seemed confusing, then you really should read more about the real military. I don't know how you ever made it through End Run or any other of Bill's books. Wing Commander is just as much a space opera as it is a war movie, albeit, a war that hasn't happened, and military fiction.
I wouldn't say I was owned. I'd say my scenarioes are more interesting and more true to the heart of the material than saying the Bengal class was a pre-war design which was updated into what we know as the Tiger's Claw... largely just because the class's name isn't "Tiger's Claw" and the wackusness of the Confederation Handbook.
Movie Premise: Kilrathi destroy a base somewhere and are about to cause a pretty big insurance crisis on Earth. Lt. Chris Blair and Todd Manaic Marshall are on thier way to the .. Tiger.. Claw.. onboard the .. Diligent.. because they are replacement pilots. James Taggart is flying the ship. Blah blah blah, get on Tiger Claw, blah blah blah, fight in these 'Rapier 1' things, blah blah blah. Blair saves the day because Blair has the force. Hunter drinks a lot and smokes (he is the redeeming part of the movie). Tiger('s) Claw is this ... thing.. which opens up... inside..?
TV Show: Manaic and Maverick are on the Tigers Claw, only, they are just cadets.. in combat... on a fleet carrier, on the front lines, commanded by Rear Admiral Sir Geof Tolwyn - who actually briefs them. In this show they encounter things like, uh, stealth fighters and dreadnaughts that look a lot like they do in Wing Commander III. No Hunter, if I recall. Your chief tech is from Ireland or Scottsland something - if that makes up for Taggart being missing. Tiger's Claw has this wierd thing over what was the flight deck.
Game: Blair is stationed on the Tiger's Claw following that ship's heavy losses. The Tiger's Claw is stationed in Vega and is charged with routing the Kilrathi from the sector and destroying the military command starbase over Venice. Blair has never met any of these people aboard the 'Claw and he is a fresh graduate from the Academy. Maniac even says "Hi, I'm Maniac!". No Rear Admiral Geof. Tolwyn and no stealth fighters. James Taggart is flying a fighter. Hunter drinks and smokes a lot. Tiger's Claw has a long flight deck.
Yes, Chris and the others involved with the games worked on these - but remember, Chris is the one that threw away a good thing when he give us this Wing Commander movie, which plays more like a movie that was produced in the Wing Commander universe 200 years after the war than it does anything else resembling Wing Commander.
A lot of good people made the first Trek movie - and that was a hunk of crap too (same goes for the last 3 Trek movies). A lot of good people made Voyager, and, heck, one of the crew members turned into a frog or something when they were doing experiments with transwarp drive on a shuttlecraft. The first Star Wars films were fun - the last two prequels have been Lucas's misadventures in writing.
Sure seing a Scim' animated was fun - only - I hated those things. Turn like a pig, look like one too.
I'd go and look for posts previously which said there was no centeralized source of back fiction (IE: Bible) for Wing Commander when it was started other than basically what we were presented with in the games and boxes, hence some things didn't end up hashing out, and hence Wing Commander wasn't as unified in continuity as some other sci-fi (I'd say it was) and its a wonder it even fits together at all, but I won't. But you know the info about the Bible was new.
If what I said about the Tiger's Claw seemed confusing, then you really should read more about the real military. I don't know how you ever made it through End Run or any other of Bill's books. Wing Commander is just as much a space opera as it is a war movie, albeit, a war that hasn't happened, and military fiction.
I wouldn't say I was owned. I'd say my scenarioes are more interesting and more true to the heart of the material than saying the Bengal class was a pre-war design which was updated into what we know as the Tiger's Claw... largely just because the class's name isn't "Tiger's Claw" and the wackusness of the Confederation Handbook.
Movie Premise: Kilrathi destroy a base somewhere and are about to cause a pretty big insurance crisis on Earth. Lt. Chris Blair and Todd Manaic Marshall are on thier way to the .. Tiger.. Claw.. onboard the .. Diligent.. because they are replacement pilots. James Taggart is flying the ship. Blah blah blah, get on Tiger Claw, blah blah blah, fight in these 'Rapier 1' things, blah blah blah. Blair saves the day because Blair has the force. Hunter drinks a lot and smokes (he is the redeeming part of the movie). Tiger('s) Claw is this ... thing.. which opens up... inside..?
TV Show: Manaic and Maverick are on the Tigers Claw, only, they are just cadets.. in combat... on a fleet carrier, on the front lines, commanded by Rear Admiral Sir Geof Tolwyn - who actually briefs them. In this show they encounter things like, uh, stealth fighters and dreadnaughts that look a lot like they do in Wing Commander III. No Hunter, if I recall. Your chief tech is from Ireland or Scottsland something - if that makes up for Taggart being missing. Tiger's Claw has this wierd thing over what was the flight deck.
Game: Blair is stationed on the Tiger's Claw following that ship's heavy losses. The Tiger's Claw is stationed in Vega and is charged with routing the Kilrathi from the sector and destroying the military command starbase over Venice. Blair has never met any of these people aboard the 'Claw and he is a fresh graduate from the Academy. Maniac even says "Hi, I'm Maniac!". No Rear Admiral Geof. Tolwyn and no stealth fighters. James Taggart is flying a fighter. Hunter drinks and smokes a lot. Tiger's Claw has a long flight deck.
Yes, Chris and the others involved with the games worked on these - but remember, Chris is the one that threw away a good thing when he give us this Wing Commander movie, which plays more like a movie that was produced in the Wing Commander universe 200 years after the war than it does anything else resembling Wing Commander.
A lot of good people made the first Trek movie - and that was a hunk of crap too (same goes for the last 3 Trek movies). A lot of good people made Voyager, and, heck, one of the crew members turned into a frog or something when they were doing experiments with transwarp drive on a shuttlecraft. The first Star Wars films were fun - the last two prequels have been Lucas's misadventures in writing.
Sure seing a Scim' animated was fun - only - I hated those things. Turn like a pig, look like one too.
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
I'm pretty sure we've known that there's been a 'bible' for years -- I just didn't own a copy or, you know, have a hilarious opportunity to show someone up with it.
The WC1/2 Official Guide quotes character descriptions from the bible in its 'making of' segment... and back when we interviewed Bill Forstchen for WCHS (in... 96?) he spoke of recieving a copy when he was hired to write End Run and Fleet Action.What's with the venom? It can't just be to cover up the lack of a coherent argument. What did *I* do to *you*? I completely fail to see how my feelings about Wing Commander have offended *you* so deeply. Your 'story' about the Tiger's Claw is not confusing in the sense that it's some amazing piece of high art which those of lower intelligence can never hope to grasp -- it's confusing because it's simply a lengthy and pointless explanation requiring several unusual 'what if' scnarios to be true... all for *only* the sake of disagreeing with the movie (instead of agreeing with anything else). I mean -- 'depending on what "launching" means'? That's a flimsier premise than even something *I'd* come up with!
(Nor is it, as you'd apparently like to believe, steeped in military lore -- upgrading an existing ship design for modern times is just as 'water navy' plausible as... whatever you said. Perhaps one of the CZ members who's served can give their thoughts on this? Psych? Death?)
That would be the Confederation Handbook that you just claimed you'd never read...?
Oh no! Not a chief tech from... Ireland (or worse... 'Scottsland'!). Anything but that! Why, that directly contradicts the fact that... oh, we never met the WC1 tech, did we? Well, militarily, that means they never existed!
Some problems with your Wing 1 writeup, too -- if Blair and Maniac are both replacements just assigned from the Academy, why don't they know each other beforehand (they certainly did in all assosciated fiction hence -- the WC1/2 Guide, the various novels). Admiral Tolwyn and stealth fighters show up in Super Wing Commander... or, ignoring that (because I'm betting that's one of the things you hate, too!) in Secret Missions 2.
Seriously, though, these three events arrange themselves very well into a simple timeline.
In the first episode of Wing Commander Academy (Red & Blue), we see Blair and Maniac assigned to the Tiger's Claw. The episode ends before they've gone anywhere -- we just learn that they're going to be posted there. Then, the movie opens with Blair and Maniac being ferried to the 'Claw for their assignment. Is it not insanely reasonable that Blair and Maniac are going there because... they've been *assigned* there? See what I'm getting at? Now, the movie is dated! Yay! 2654.074... it lasts three days, taking us to 2654.077. Blair and Maniac fly a few missions, save Earth, etc. Then... Wing Commander (1) opens with Blair and Maniac already assigned to the Tiger's Claw. It just starts with them there. Is it terribly unreasonable to assume that in order for Blair and Maniac to be on the Tiger's Claw that they must have been assigned there, and that they must have been transported there somehow? Now, though you haven't actually ever mentioned anything having to do with the military, you clearly like to think you know a lot -- so I'll bow to your theoretical brilliance when it comes to such matters. In your vast amount of invisible experience, do soldiers usually recieve *assignments* serve at their posts? Sarcars aside, the game is also kind enough to open with a date -- 2654.110... meaning that the movie intentionally took place beforehand. Why is this timeline wrong?
You're certainly a bitter young man.
Not that it has anything to do with this thread, but I have to disagree with you regarding the first Star Trek movie. Boring as it was, it's the *only* Star Trek movie that character and story-wise is remotely like the original series.
Which made it all the more amazing that they bothered to respect the continuity.
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
Starkey said:Preach what you´ve learned once you´re done reading the Bible LOAF.
Hehe, don't worry -- I'll get it out to everyone as soon as possible. I don't really mean to hold it over anyones heads -- it was just too amusing a little opportunity to let get away (G)
