Progression of ships

[Bandit LOAF]

Well dosent WCP use the same old PTC idea again with the big bug plasma cannon that can automatically destroy any large enemy ship(not that we see it action that offten due engine limitations)? IMHO they were running out of ideas at that time maybe thats the reason they started using old ideas from past games.

I don't think "big gun" really counts as an original idea betrayed.

I'm also not certain what 'running out of ideas' means in the context of an extremely formulaic sort of game... if anything, Prophecy displays more innovations in the small areas in which a Wing Commander game might be allowed to innovate than previous titles did.

On a grander scale I'm not sure what running out of ideas means *at all* -- it's one of those pop culture criticisms we like to throw around when we don't have anything else to say. Does it actually happen? I've been alive a good while and I've never reached the point where my brain simply stopped working... so I find it hard to ascribe to anyone such a situation (particularly in a case where that 'anyone' is a large group of professionals, most of whom are different from the previous group of writers and game designers...)

And lets also be careful throwing around the term 'engine limitation'... if you don't specifically know that something cannot be done by the engine, don't say it. This sort of claim has made a mess of all kinds of things over the years (look at the claim in this very thread about the Wing Commander 2 ships -- we do not need BradMick 2020 going back and proving that Prophecy can very easily display an explosion because we've decided it's an easy answer.)

Now, consider this: there is absolutely no dramatic element to the Phase Transit Cannon. It exists for a single reason: to answer a question no one ended up asking. Specifically, the continuity issue of what happened to the Sivar's weapon. Origin felt that would be an issue among the fanbase in 1991 -- it wasn't. The PTC doesn't even show up referenced in dialogue until the second Special Ops package. There's no grand romantic story about the PTC... ever. It's just a line in a manual, there's nothing to copy.

The "Plasma Weapon", on the other hand, is an *entirely* dramatic object -- it's something that exists in the context of Prophecy's storyline and is created specifically so that it can't have an effect in the game. They learned their lesson with the PTC (and the Sivar weapon and the Lance and the Excalibur...) -- super weapons aren't fun. So, the Midway gets a gun that, as we're told before it's ever even used, fires only once.

 

[GreyViper]

And lets also be careful throwing around the term 'engine limitation'... if you don't specifically know that something cannot be done by the engine, don't say it. This sort of claim has made a mess of all kinds of things over the years (look at the claim in this very thread about the Wing Commander 2 ships -- we do not need BradMick 2020 going back and proving that Prophecy can very easily display an explosion because we've decided it's an easy answer.)

Well by engine limitation I meant that the only way enemy or Midway could fire the plasma cannon was to make prerendered video scene. As for what can be done and cant be, you are right I dont know how flexible the engine is. But Id like to ask people who do know about its limitation could a capital ship Plasma Weapon made working in game? If yes, was it left out because they didnt need to code how the weapon works & add it to ships to save lots of time while 1-2 cutscens would be easier solution?
On a side note how many of the enemy ships could use it and how offten?

Now, consider this: there is absolutely no dramatic element to the Phase Transit Cannon. It exists for a single reason: to answer a question no one ended up asking. Specifically, the continuity issue of what happened to the Sivar's weapon. Origin felt that would be an issue among the fanbase in 1991 -- it wasn't. The PTC doesn't even show up referenced in dialogue until the second Special Ops package. There's no grand romantic story about the PTC... ever. It's just a line in a manual, there's nothing to copy.

Well it sure was impressive when it was fired in WC2 I honestly didnt expect that.
But yes its not needed for story, nice to have needed no.

The "Plasma Weapon", on the other hand, is an *entirely* dramatic object -- it's something that exists in the context of Prophecy's storyline and is created specifically so that it can't have an effect in the game. They learned their lesson with the PTC (and the Sivar weapon and the Lance and the Excalibur...) -- super weapons aren't fun. So, the Midway gets a gun that, as we're told before it's ever even used, fires only once.

To be honest when they started talking in Prophecy's using the Plasma Weapon, I was thinking "uh uh are they reusing the PTC idea again only by renaming it?". They could even have skiped that part and used just remote trigger. Btw only thing I found dramatic was the part where the mining ship got blown up and the part Blair went MIA.

And for the ending I dont dislike WCP I just think it could have been bit better.
Smarter AI, advanced capship fights would have been nice(yeah im going get flamed for saying this similar to the ones in FS2 ), so would have been ability to chose your weapon loadout.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

Well by engine limitation I meant that the only way enemy or Midway could fire the plasma cannon was to make prerendered video scene. As for what can be done and cant be, you are right I dont know how flexible the engine is. But Id like to ask people who do know about its limitation could a capital ship Plasma Weapon made working in game? If yes, was it left out because they didnt need to code how the weapon works & add it to ships to save lots of time while 1-2 cutscens would be easier solution?
On a side note how many of the enemy ships could use it and how offten?

An engine limitation implies something of a technical issue -- as in 'we could never design an engine that displays 500 ships at once' or somesuch. You can certainly, certainly put a single-shot-kill weapon into Prophecy... it's not a technical issue at all.

Cutscenes are 'rewards' in terms of gameplay... you play the mission and you get a pretty cutscene. That's why you have the Miwday blowing up the fleet in a giant impressive CGI sequence rather than an instant in-cockpit flash. It's the same reason you cut to Thrakhath executing Angel in full color instead of watching it on a tiny green screen -- storytelling.

The refire delay for the Capital Ship Plasma Weapon is 9.5 seconds. Two classes Nephilim ships were armed with the weapon, the Kraken and the Tiamat.

Well it sure was impressive when it was fired in WC2 I honestly didnt expect that. But yes its not needed for story, nice to have needed no.

It wasn't impressive at all - it was the Particle Cannon graphic reused at the last minute.

To be honest when they started talking in Prophecy's using the Plasma Weapon, I was thinking "uh uh are they reusing the PTC idea again only by renaming it?". They could even have skiped that part and used just remote trigger.

This is a weird thing to say, because the idea you're accusing them of copying is something that barely even exists. It's a line in a manual... the only reason everyone remembers it today is because our fandom went through an awful 'Aces Club' periond in the mid 1990s where everyone made up their own private super-fighters armed with a bajillion Phase Transit Cannons.

It's also not some kind of secret idea that's unique to the Phase Transit Cannon. Not only is it just a 'big gun', but it's a *trend* of big guns. You've got the Proton Accelerator Gun in Wing Commander I, the Phase Transit Cannon in Wing Commander 2, the Behemoth in Wing Commander III... if anything, Wing Commander Prophecy is continuing a trend.

Btw only thing I found dramatic was the part where the mining ship got blown up and the part Blair went MIA.

I'm using the proper meaning of the word drama (a serious story as opposed to a comedy), not claiming that Wing Commander Prophecy was 'dramatic'.

And for the ending I dont dislike WCP I just think it could have been bit better. Smarter AI, advanced capship fights would have been nice(yeah im going get flamed for saying this similar to the ones in FS2 ), so would have been ability to chose your weapon loadout.

Yes, they should have travelled to the future, played Freespace 2 and then gone back to adapt its ideas for Wing Commander Prophecy.

Copies of Freespace 2 for the Prophecy team would have, at least, doubled that sad game's sales

 

[GreyViper]

Yes, they should have travelled to the future, played Freespace 2 and then gone back to adapt its ideas for Wing Commander Prophecy.

Copies of Freespace 2 for the Prophecy team would have, at least, doubled that sad game's sales

Hehe I wish, maybe then the Prophecy trilogy would have been completed.
What im trying to say is that FS1 spoiled some of the players and when WCP came out people were expecting more.
Ironic thing was that Freespace 1 "borrowed" lots of ideas from WC and Xwing vs Tie fighter.
PS. Sorry if it turned into another FS vs WCP thread.

 

[ChrisReid]

Hehe I wish, maybe then the Prophecy trilogy would have been completed.
What im trying to say is that FS1 spoiled some of the players and when WCP came out people were expecting more.

Like what? And it sure couldn't have caused many people to expect more, since twenty Wing Commander fans played Prophecy for every person that got Freespace.

PS. Sorry if it turned into another FS vs WCP thread.

I expect you'll be more sorry as this thread continues.

 

[Mace]

the plasma gun was a one-off, at the time, with the crew being being unsure of firing the weapon, either you use it or you lose, like in WC2, those are only good odds in desperate situations.

 

[Dran]

Whether it sits with you or not is irrelevant. Academy and the WC movie both establish the Broadsword as existing in the WC1 timeframe.

What? Acadamy came after WCII. And the Movie? Man the movie was hardly based on the game with exception of some ship names and pilots. The whole pilgram thing totally discredits the movie. I know there were arrows in Armada, The wraith disapears after this. I'll agree with the assessment of the excaliber as a new fighter, not sure of thunderbolt.

Basically I would look at it akin to computers. In the first 10 years after the development of computers huge jumps in proccessing power, storage, and graphics were made (Remember CGA, EGA, and VGA). After that computers have advanced much more quickly Think of how many years between P3 and P4, K6, AMD Atholon, and the new 64 Bit proccessors. If you want to look at other wars WWII for example in 41 we needed a long range escort for bombing runs by 43 the P-51 was developed and in service. So I could see new Space ships being developed in 3 years.

However, I would also agree with the view that new ships were put in the game cause that's what the fans want, and to sell the videogame.

 

[Eder]

Man the movie was hardly based on the game with exception of some ship names and pilots. The whole pilgram thing totally discredits the movie.

That's stupid.

 

[SabreAce]

What? Acadamy came after WCII.

A show featuring the TCS Tiger's Claw comes over 10 years after the Tiger's Claw was destroyed? Or are you mistaking the Academy TV show with the Academy game?

 

[Dran]

I guess that means you disagree. Maybe you can tell me how they connect.


Not the Show, The game, or possiably in armada, I am sorry.

http://starvector.com/jpgs/ca0583.jpg

 

[ChrisReid]

What? Acadamy came after WCII. And the Movie? Man the movie was hardly based on the game with exception of some ship names and pilots. The whole pilgram thing totally discredits the movie. I know there were arrows in Armada, The wraith disapears after this. I'll agree with the assessment of the excaliber as a new fighter, not sure of thunderbolt.

Maybe you didn't read the post you replied to. Here's the important part one more time. Whether it sits with you or not is irrelevant. Academy and the WC movie both establish the Broadsword as existing in the WC1 timeframe. The rest of your assumptions and conclusions are equally irrelevant. SabreAce doesn't "disagree" with you. He's telling you about Wing Commander sources and products that you're obviously unfamiliar with. That's fine that you've only familiar with a fraction of the established universe, but you can't go around making silly assumptions based on that limited knowledge.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

What? Acadamy came after WCII. And the Movie? Man the movie was hardly based on the game with exception of some ship names and pilots. The whole pilgram thing totally discredits the movie. I know there were arrows in Armada, The wraith disapears after this. I'll agree with the assessment of the excaliber as a new fighter, not sure of thunderbolt.

Academy in this instance refers to the 13-episode animated series, not the Wing Commander 2 engine mission builder. The series was set onboard the Tiger's Claw during the events of Wing Commander I - it's available for download here at wcnews.com if you aren't familiar with it.

The Wing Commander movie is part of the same continuity as the games - in terms of time and place it occurs aboard the Tiger's Claw just before the original game starts.

THe Excalibur is a new fighter in Wing Commander III -- this is an element of the game's plot. You first see the fighter when it's undergoing its operational testing (in the Tamayo System)... the Victory later recieves the very first active Excalibur squadron, transferred from the TCS Eagle (shades of Rapier II's on the Tiger's Claw, indeed).

We don't know how old the Thunderbolt VII is. There's been some confusion about them in the past because of a quote from the Wign Commander III Authorized Combat Guide: "I flew one of these birds for nearly six months. That's a long time for a fighter operating in the Kilrathi war fronts." In reality, that doesn't specify when they entered service at all -- Col. Hart is simply saying that he flew one exclusively for an extended period of time. Of note is that the Wing Commander III novelization has Blair refer to Thunderbolts as "steady and reliable old fighters"... and the Wing Commander IV novelization claims they use the same "strut and bow assembley" as the Rapier -- make what you will of that. Also, remember that Thunderbolts are still in service, in their D model, some twelve years after the end of the war in Wing Commander Secret Ops.

The Wraith was a prototype in 2667 (Academy game) and has entered service by the time of Armada (early 2669)... so they should still be just coming online by the time of Wing Commander III (three or four months later). As for the other Armada ships, the Phantom and the Gladius have no detailed histories... the Arrow V first appears in an episode of Wing Commander Academy (2654) and the Banshee is explicitly new (per the Armada Gauntlet storyline).

 

[Haesslich]

I guess that means you disagree. Maybe you can tell me how they connect.
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As other posts have indicated, Origin said they connected YEARS ago, on a forum which has since been lost to entropy but whose spiritual descendant is the one you're posting in. When the property creator says "this is part of the series' timeline", it's part of the series timeline.

As far as the other ships are concerned, the Rapier II, Excalibur, Crossbow, and Wraith are fighters which are stated to be new designs in the games they appear in - other ships are either referenced as old (like the Scimitar), or else appear in official sources like the Academy TV show (such as the Arrow, Hellcat, and Broadsword).

Just because we don't see a ship in a game doesn't mean it doesn't exist - it may mean we never encounter any missions where one's required, or that's part of another squadron we never see, or it's deployed on another front because of politcal, monetary, or other requirements which preclude it being used on missions we see in game. Saying that a fighter, just because you've never seen it before, is either new or never existed until its appearance is like saying that, just because you've never seen a MiG-22 before it was flown in an airshow one year meant it was a completely new design.

 

[Bob McDob]

What im trying to say is that FS1 spoiled some of the players and when WCP came out people were expecting more.

I'm fairly certain WCP was released before Freespace.

 

[Dran]

Sounds good to me then.

 

[GreyViper]

I'm fairly certain WCP was released before Freespace.

Descent: Freespace
Publisher: Interplay
Developer: Volition
Genre: Space Flight Simulator

Published: 1998

Wing Commander: Prophecy
Publisher: Electronic Arts
Developer: Origin
Genre: Space Combat Simulator

Published: 1997

Yup it looks like your right.

 

[Nob Akimoto]

Also if you simply go by the handling specs and the armament of ships like the Longbow and Hellcat V, you kind of get the impression that these are older designs circa WC3 (both are armed with neutrons. Hellcat's a bit slower and a bit more sluggish than a Rapier II, Longbow doesn't really have any major advantages over the Crossbow save for afterburners)

The only thing that's a little unusual is the shield/armor values, but those can probably be taken into account for one reason or another.

 

[Death]

Longbow doesn't really have any major advantages over the Crossbow save for afterburners

Except for those 13 extra missiles and a turret with particle cannons that reach farther and hit harder than the neutron guns in the Crossbow, anyway.

 

[Nob Akimoto]

Dunno, there was a pretty drastic departure in terms of gameplay between WC2:SO and WC3, particularly when it came to how you fought in bombers...did anyone really ever use turrets in WC3?

But okay, I concede on the 13 missiles. Blasted missile inflation.

 

[d3r3k]

I hardly ever used the turret. It did more harm than good for me. I always had trouble fighting Paktahns though.