Privateer and the economics of piracy

P

Phy

Spaceman
I've been playing Privateer recently on my 386 (Thanks to those of you who gave me advice on how to deal with Stacker a couple months ago)... and I've noticed a fairly glaring problem with the AI:

You're the most important person in the universe. Pirates will be making a run on a tasty and defenseless (judging from the escort runs) Drayman, and they'll drop everything to try and destroy you. In your large, bewilderingly overweaponed Centurion. And they're flying Talons.

Now I realize the probable out-of-game decision for this - keep the player on their toes by throwing enemies at him. I'm just wondering, what's actually going through these pirates' minds, when they blow an easy and profitable op just so they can bask in the almighty power of your withering gunfire, or chase you all the way across the sector hanging 5000 meters off your stern while you hold down the burners?

And the other thing... how is regular shipping even profitable? Given that: Pirates, Retros, and Kilrathi are everywhere; Draymans die quickly under concerted fire; Galaxies die even more quickly unless piloted by Brown-Hair; but Centurions can outrun pretty much anything fielded against them and moreover are fairly easy to buy; why isn't every mercantile outfit in Gemini hiring small fleets of unarmed, 3-engine-2-shield Cents to ship their cargo?
 
You're the most important person in the universe. Pirates will be making a run on a tasty and defenseless (judging from the escort runs) Drayman, and they'll drop everything to try and destroy you. In your large, bewilderingly overweaponed Centurion. And they're flying Talons.
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Its a game and they mostly allways target you first. About Talons the thing is governor Mensh sold them to retros and pirates thats why they are commn in Gemeni sector.
Now I realize the probable out-of-game decision for this - keep the player on their toes by throwing enemies at him. I'm just wondering, what's actually going through these pirates' minds, when they blow an easy and profitable op just so they can bask in the almighty power of your withering gunfire, or chase you all the way across the sector hanging 5000 meters off your stern while you hold down the burners?
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Its the AI and who can figure out the AI?
And the other thing... how is regular shipping even profitable? Given that: Pirates, Retros, and Kilrathi are everywhere; Draymans die quickly under concerted fire; Galaxies die even more quickly unless piloted by Brown-Hair; but Centurions can outrun pretty much anything fielded against them and moreover are fairly easy to buy; why isn't every mercantile outfit in Gemini hiring small fleets of unarmed, 3-engine-2-shield Cents to ship their cargo?
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They usualy have escorts, but I think its easier on game engine if there were no escosts. I disagre on Galaxies though. As for Centurion it PAWNS most confed ships at that time. Btw is Gemni sector more wealthy that civilians can afford such powerfull ships or is it because Gemni is a frontier sector?
 
A Retro is someone who likes to Play old DOS games on a 386. :)

In Priv's case, they are a religious cult who wishes to use technology to destroy technology.
 
. I'm just wondering, what's actually going through these pirates' minds, when they blow an easy and profitable op just so they can bask in the almighty power of your withering gunfire, or chase you all the way across the sector hanging 5000 meters off your stern while you hold down the burners?
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Well, think about it this way: in an ordinary Wing Commander game what do you attack first in an anti-shipping mission, the enemy transport or its fighter escort? In general, the escort - because you want to eliminate anything that's a real thread first.

It's the same for pirates attacking you. If they're doing so, it's because you're considered hostile (either because you just started the game and haven't arranged your alliances yet or more likely because you've been going around shooting down their Talons). Your armed and armored Tarsus/Orion/Galaxy/Centurion is, from their point of view, a threat.

And the other thing... how is regular shipping even profitable? Given that: Pirates, Retros, and Kilrathi are everywhere; Draymans die quickly under concerted fire; Galaxies die even more quickly unless piloted by Brown-Hair; but Centurions can outrun pretty much anything fielded against them and moreover are fairly easy to buy; why isn't every mercantile outfit in Gemini hiring small fleets of unarmed, 3-engine-2-shield Cents to ship their cargo?
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The manual seems to treat the Galaxy, when compared to the Drayman, as a sort of hobbyists transport - presumably the Draymans (Draymen?) carry a large amount of cargo and generate a lot more profit.

Btw is Gemni sector more wealthy that civilians can afford such powerfull ships or is it because Gemni is a frontier sector?
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Nah, consider: Privateer takes place in 2669, the same year as Wing Commander 3... and all of the Wing Commander 3 fighters have ten times as much shielding and armor.
 
Well, also consider that Priv is an older game than WCIII and thus they didn't yet know they'd buff the shield and armor stats. :p Heck, the Confed and Kilrathi ships of Gemini certainly don't have armor in the 100s.
 
Well, also consider that Priv is an older game than WCIII and thus they didn't yet know they'd buff the shield and armor stats. Heck, the Confed and Kilrathi ships of Gemini certainly don't have armor in the 100s.
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That works both ways, though - on the other hand, WCIII was a newer game than Privateer and they *did* know it would have higher shield and armor stats. (This was, per my understanding, actually taken into consideration -- the idea that the fighters in WC3 are front line military craft versus police forces and civilian craft in Privateer.)

(Shield values, while hotly debated by everyone in the universe as a mechanics issue, are in fact actually a fiction element... WC3's doesn't care what the numbers listed in the manual are as long as they're balanced to eachother. The guy writing the manual can multiply them by ten or divide them by a hundred and they'll still work the same way in the game.)
 
Well, there's no way to know the if this shield difference was intentional or not (Gee, let's make the civilians fighters 10 times weaker!). Not that it has any importance. Confed is a free and democratic political entity that seem to allow people to own their own ships and arm them adequately. You even have militia on the gemini sector, as well as on the Border Worlds.

I might be wrong here, but "gun control" doesn't seem to exist, at least on outer sector.
 
It's not so much the gun control, as it is common sense. Consider:
The Talon is small, has generally weak guns, only a few missiles, and blows up really quickly. About the only thing it's got going for it is maneuverability. For most of the game, unless you're challenging yourself, you're flying one of the hottest ships in the quadrant - a heavy fighter kitted out with all the trimmings, guns the Confed won't even touch, and shields that'll let you fly right through those Talons without even thinking about it. Plus, you'll probably end up killing hundreds of pirates. And it's quite likely you're infamous - these pirates know who you are. They sure as heck know to start shooting at you the moment they see you.

And it's not even on the Masterson escort runs. I'm talking about where you pop out of a jumpgate or waltz into a nav point, and there'll be a merchant ship hanging there with a few pirates trying to knock it down. And almost invariably, no matter if you're just passing through or not, they'll turn and fight you. It's not even like the merchant ship calls for help - I can't recall one instance of that.

I suppose they could be thinking something along the lines of "Oh, crikey, it's the Pirate Hunter, maybe he's here to save this cargo ship, we better shoot him"... If I were in their place, though, and a heavy fighter showed up wearing so many little Talon silhouettes that you can't see the original paint job, I'd turn my little fighter around and run like I stole it. (And since I'm a pirate, I probably did...)

Which brings me back to economics. We know piracy must be a paying concern, because no matter how many you kill, they still keep showing up. And I can't believe that Brown-Hair is the only one in Gemini offing these guys by the dozen - it's not hard to work your way into a fine pirate-killing machine, if you have something decent to start off with. Which makes me wonder, where are all these new pirates coming from?

Personally, I think they might be grown in vats. They do all look the same... ;)
 
Delance said:
Well, there's no way to know the if this shield difference was intentional or not (Gee, let's make the civilians fighters 10 times weaker!). Not that it has any importance. Confed is a free and democratic political entity that seem to allow people to own their own ships and arm them adequately. You even have militia on the gemini sector, as well as on the Border Worlds.

I might be wrong here, but "gun control" doesn't seem to exist, at least on outer sector.
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Given that the Confederation was in the middle of a 40-year war, that making weapons was a well-paying business (the military needs guns, and so does anyone who has a chance in hell of facing Kilrathi - and that means everyone in border sectors), and that the Kilrathi were known to raid, then I'm not surprised that Confed let everyone get a reasonable level of weapons. Heck, the Border Worlds smuggled or made their own anyways.

It's just military-grade weapons which were probably forbidden to non-governmental entities, which is why Hunter was so surprised to see the Landsreich had all that new, mil-spec hardware ready when he arrived during the Armistice. Given that we know Kilrathi raiders existed, that pirates existed, and that there's a lot of territory out there that would need you to protect yourself in (no Confed presence), then having guns and fighters for civilians only makes sense. Heck, bounty hunters have to get their gear from SOMEWHERE.
 
Well, there's no way to know the if this shield difference was intentional or not (Gee, let's make the civilians fighters 10 times weaker!).
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You're mixing up cause and effect. Wing Commander III was developed long after Privateer - the people who created the 'new' higher values for WC3 were aware of the 'old' values used in Privateer.

Not that it has any importance. Confed is a free and democratic political entity that seem to allow people to own their own ships and arm them adequately. You even have militia on the gemini sector, as well as on the Border Worlds.

I might be wrong here, but "gun control" doesn't seem to exist, at least on outer sector.
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I wouldn't go that far. What most people forget is that "Privateer" doesn't mean "guy who decides to buy some guns and go around killing people because he felt like it". Presumably Brownhair is a "Privateer" because he has recieved a letter of marque from the Confederation government, allowing him to arm his ship and take action against enemy shipping. (And as happened historically, privateers often ended up meaning government sanctioned pirates.)

Which makes me wonder, where are all these new pirates coming from?
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Hehe, seriously, I think it has to do with the same greater economic level as the Draymans. There's companies out there making millions and billions of credits shipping stuff on larger ships... so there's also stupid kids willing to risk an encounter with Brownhair to blow up and eat some of that pie.
 
I guess with older games (or even newer games for that matter) when you could easily wonder why things don't make sense, I usually would just use my imagination to fill in the gaps.

It's like in Morrowind when there are plenty of people standing around. But the rats only go after me. I just assume they know I'm the Nerevarine and they have something to lose from all the Dunmer tribes and Great Houses being united.

It's better to be friends with the pirates anyway. That way you really can watch the Drayman's being attacked and when they die they go, "You're dead, chump!" They had the best lines anyway. So why would you want to be friends with those sniveling militia. Nerdy policeman type people saying, "We got this sector bottled tight friend." Or the neutral line from the pirates is one of my favorite. "I didn't see you and you're blind, got it?"

Or if you could actually pull it off, make friends with the Retros and they're like, "Oh God thee eternal Father. Please sanctify this bread..." I forgot how that one goes exactly.
 
Atekimogus said:
I have played all wing commanders but unfortunatly never privateer :( , so whats a RETRO please?
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Now that you've gotten the usual round of smart-ass answers to your question, here's a serious reply.

"Retro" is the popular nickname for an extremist Christian group that, IIRC, is an offshoot of the Amish. The group's official name is The Church of Man, and basically they take the "no advanced technology" concept the Amish hold and take it to an extreme, attempting to destroy advanced technology (by using advanced technology, but like with real-world extremists, it's probably a waste of breath trying to make them see the hypocrisy of that, even if such was an option in the game, which it isn't) to return humanity to a simpler time, hence "Retro".

In the Privateer add-on "Righteous Fire", they form an integral part of the game's plot, though how they do so I won't say, as to not spoil things. (Suffice it to say, though, you as the player are, as always, the most bad-ass pilot in the sector.)
 
Phy said:
Now I realize the probable out-of-game decision for this - keep the player on their toes by throwing enemies at him. I'm just wondering, what's actually going through these pirates' minds, when they blow an easy and profitable op just so they can bask in the almighty power of your withering gunfire, or chase you all the way across the sector hanging 5000 meters off your stern while you hold down the burners?
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Probably something along the lines of: (in pseudo code since I'm no programmer)

IF playerlever <= 450 Then
Call attackplandelta FOR Infinity
Else
RUN LIKE HELL!
End If
Loop
 
They never DO run like hell... :D

I will give 'em this - they break pursuit if you don't activate fanatic status by being in a mission against them, or shoot 'em up a little or something. But still, and I'm sure everyone who's played Privateer has done it, there was that one time I took a bunch of scout missions in an early-game Tarsus, and it was just too much for me to fight everyone, so I ended up dragging a motley crew of pirates, retros, and I think a Dralthi behind me on a grand tour of the Troy system...
 
Shipgate said:
Or if you could actually pull it off, make friends with the Retros and they're like, "Oh God thee eternal Father. Please sanctify this bread..." I forgot how that one goes exactly.
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I was always under the impression that you *couldn't* make friends with retros. Even the ol' "c-#-3" trick wouldn't pull them off of you. Everyone else could be talked into submission, but not retros. Even when you get your relations wiped clean by Roman Lynch, they're still hostile. He even makes the Kilrathi neutral with you. This gives rise to the moto: "The only good Retro is a dead one!"
 
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