Pirates with capital ships?

[kingmakeress]

Recently I remembered that while playing Privateer 2 there were pirate cruisers, which actually seemed unique for each clan, as well as large hijacked CIS ships, namely a military prototype which was well-armed and a CIS Katilin (Roman res publica joined the chat) carrier whose crew has mutinied IIRC. I get that Confed has lots of capital ships and the space is a huge place, but how easy is it to capture such a capital ship and keep it, as it would stand to reason that Confed would want to take it back?

 

[Oggy]

I think after the Kilrathi war ended there'd be lot of surplus ships around, to be stolen or to be bought and then rearmed illegally perhaps.
The pirates in WCIV were operating out of a Frigate.

 

[Bob McDob]

The pirate clans in The Darkening aren't really "pirates" in the sense that they are from the other games and the political system is very different. It's also not really clear how they compare as "capital ships" other than being very large (which is true of other ships like freighters). Comparing them to military ships isn't as helpful as it should be because the military and CIS were merged at some point in Privateer 2's development and the final game has police operating military equipment. Are they like gendarmes and is there a "real" military or is that all there is? There doesn't seem to be that much if any difference between the weapons a civilian can buy and the ones available to the government.

In the main series the pirates in False Colors have a small carrier, but it's a converted civilian ship and is described as being fairly ramshackle.

 

[kingmakeress]

The pirates in WCIV were operating out of a Frigate.

Indeed they were in the Hellespont system and probably not only there. Still there was only such frigate and was their mobile base of operations. In Privateer 2 a pirate cruiser was a somewhat common sight. Also they were cruisers, which are generally larger and more powerful than frigates (ok, assuming that contemporary naval vessel classification extends to the Tri-System era).

 

[kingmakeress]

The pirate clans in The Darkening aren't really "pirates" in the sense that they are from the other games and the political system is very different.

True, they seem to be more like political factions with their own bases which, unlike Privateer bases, are part of the map. In fact, this is consistent with their descriptions and agendas. Also that would explain why not only they have custom cruisers, but also why they have more than a few.

It's also not really clear how they compare as "capital ships" other than being very large

Size and heavier guns (well they did more damage to my shields) are two criteria. Now whether the term "cruiser" in the Tri-System has come to mean something different, it is hard to say.

Are they like gendarmes and is there a "real" military or is that all there is?

CIS definitely looks like that, even its name suggests it is more a law enforcement or security agency. Still in his first e-mail David Hassan says he is an officer of "the navy intelligence".

 

[Bandit LOAF]

Are they like gendarmes and is there a "real" military or is that all there is?

I believe the CIS includes a military (perhaps the largest and most significant one) but it is not the sole military. While military and CIS are routinely used to mean the same thing there are a few pieces of lore were they aren't. Most famously the Hades description: "inhabited solely by prisoners, the CIS and the Military."

I think the idea is that every government that makes up the Tri-System has its own military. In news articles about new weapons we're told that they're being marketed to "collected military Chiefs of Staff" or "for sale to the Tri-System's less progressive regimes." We also hear about military academies for specific planets (Hades Aeronautics Martial Academy, Hermes Military Institute) and specific units that seem to be distinct from the CIS ("Hephaestus Militia", "MIlitia 3rd reserve battalion", "local Militia Air Reserve", etc.). There are also a number of news events about militaries on specific planets revolting or engaging with some disaster; there's even one that can happen on any planet that uses Wing Commander's rarest service term, "army!" (There's a "navy" in there that doesn't seem to be the CIS, too.)

I don't think the inhabitants of the Tri-System treat the CIS as the police, though. They do seem to very frequently call it the military… and Tex Carver is said to be a "space marine" rather than a policeman of some sort.

Indeed they were in the Hellespont system and probably not only there. Still there was only such frigate and was their mobile base of operations. In Privateer 2 a pirate cruiser was a somewhat common sight. Also they were cruisers, which are generally larger and more powerful than frigates (ok, assuming that contemporary naval vessel classification extends to the Tri-System era).

The Tri-System order of battle seems to be Shuttle -> Transport -> Destroyer -> Cruiser -> Carrier -> Dreadnought -> Prototype, so cruiser seems to be at about the same place! But Bob is right, the Tri-System "pirates" are really more like rogue nations.

Worth noting that the Hellespont frigate isn't really a "clean" case, either; they were run by the Black Lance conspiracy folks.

 

[kingmakeress]

Worth noting that the Hellespont frigate isn't really a "clean" case, either; they were run by the Black Lance conspiracy folks.

Wait, so weren't they "independent operators" to use Eisen's term? I thought they were just ordinary (so to speak!) pirates 🤔🤔

 

[Bandit LOAF]

Yes, the idea was that Seether was operating off of the frigate (testing the flashpack)... and when it was destroyed he had to relocate to the Lexington.

 

[Bob McDob]

It's worth noting that neither Blair nor the Lexington crew seem particularly surprised that the pirates have frigates, though. The novel goes into some detail to describe them as being "common as dirt."

To me the Razor from the same game is more interesting because it's the only time we see pirates operate their own fighters, that they didn't steal or were sold to them. The Cosa Nostra-sounding manufacturer "Martina Nostra" suggests that it was built by them personally. Assuming that it wasn't remodeled after an existing fighter, that's a lot more work than refurbishing a surplus ship.

True, they seem to be more like political factions with their own bases which, unlike Privateer bases, are part of the map. In fact, this is consistent with their descriptions and agendas. Also that would explain why not only they have custom cruisers, but also why they have more than a few.

I discovered by accident that three of the four pirate clans are named after American Indian native tribes. Kiowan is the obvious one, but also the Papagod (Papago) and Chirichan (Apache). As far as I can tell none of this has ever been noticed by anyone else and I've never seen anyone from the development team comment about it, but it does suggest what they are meant to represent.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

It's worth noting that neither Blair nor the Lexington crew seem particularly surprised that the pirates have frigates, though. The novel goes into some detail to describe them as being "common as dirt."

That is a good point, it's not something they find unexpected at all.

The common denominator to all these stories (both pirates and groups like the Landreich or the Border Worlds) is that it's ships that are available legitimately being purchased by a private interest and in the case of the pirate ships ends up being involved in piracy. So the higher up the order of battle you'll get, the less likely the ship would be made available by the Confederation instead of scrapped or stored in reserve. And it'll vary from era to era; a lot more surplus warships in 2670 than there are in 2665.

To me the Razor from the same game is more interesting because it's the only time we see pirates operate their own fighters, that they didn't steal or were sold to them. The Cosa Nostra-sounding manufacturer "Martina Nostra" suggests that it was built by them personally. Assuming that it wasn't remodeled after an existing fighter, that's a lot more work than refurbishing a surplus ship.

It certainly does suggest it's a pirate-constructed ship... although again there's no particular surprise when Maniac and Blair encounter them at the start of WC4.

Maybe worth noting: when we did the initial world building for Star Citizen, Chris was adamant that pirates would just have their own ships... which is I came up with a legitimate ship company called Drake that sells ships that are intentionally positioned to end up used by pirates.

I discovered by accident that three of the four pirate clans are named after American Indian native tribes. Kiowan is the obvious one, but also the Papagod (Papago) and Chirichan (Apache). As far as I can tell none of this has ever been noticed by anyone else and I've never seen anyone from the development team comment about it, but it does suggest what they are meant to represent.

It's all four!

Papogod - Tohono Oʼodham, formerly referred to as Papago
Kiowan - Kiowa
Chirichan - Chiricahua
Jincilla - Jicarilla Apache

IIRC this did get pointed out a bunch when the game first shipped but you rarely see it mentioned!

 

[kingmakeress]

Yes, the idea was that Seether was operating off of the frigate (testing the flashpack)... and when it was destroyed he had to relocate to the Lexington.

This would explain Maniac's comment that there are no pirates carrying that kind of firepower out there. Also, that could be, partly at least, what Seether meant when he said that things were not progressing as anticipated when he met with Paulsen. Is there a description about it in the novelization? I don't remember much about it besides the Black Hellcats and the scene where Blair actually opens and reads the Hellcat manual while in his cockpit to determine whether it can carry a torpedo, which is really cool and also reminded me of the garage scene in "The French connection".

 

[kingmakeress]

To me the Razor from the same game is more interesting because it's the only time we see pirates operate their own fighters, that they didn't steal or were sold to them. The Cosa Nostra-sounding manufacturer "Martina Nostra" suggests that it was built by them personally. Assuming that it wasn't remodeled after an existing fighter, that's a lot more work than refurbishing a surplus ship.

Still if I remember correctly the Razor has its own F- designation and name following the Confed's convention of naming fighters after swords (eg Epee, Rapier, Broadsword), which may suggest it was a cancelled project by the military or it was just a light fighter intended for patrol missions conducted by InSys similarly to Talon.

 

[kingmakeress]

ship company called Drake that sells ships that are intentionally positioned to end up used by pirates.

Wasn't it a pirate base in Privateer? The one you meet one of the brokers in Righteous Fire.

Also, speaking about pirates and Privateer, I am curious about the game allowing you to land in New Constantinople and Perry when the militia and the Confed are against you. I mean shouldn't there be Captain Goodin or the big security robot waiting for you?

 

[Bandit LOAF]

Still if I remember correctly the Razor has its own F- designation and name following the Confed's convention of naming fighters after swords (eg Epee, Rapier, Broadsword), which may suggest it was a cancelled project by the military or it was just a light fighter intended for patrol missions conducted by InSys similarly to Talon.

No designation for the Razor. I read the name as kind of parodic or as a joke; it fits the scheme but not the spirit of the Confed names... it feels like pirates (or some company that sells ships to pirates) named it the gritty street version versus Confed's noble swords.

Wasn't it a pirate base in Privateer? The one you meet one of the brokers in Righteous Fire.

There are five of them! They aren't bespoke, though; they're asteroid mining bases that have been abandoned and then been taken over for black market trading. So they aren't bases for some singular pirate authority (like in Privateer 2) but more a case of 'this place fell into disuse and is now used by pirates'. Sort of like Gar's in Action Stations!

Also, speaking about pirates and Privateer, I am curious about the game allowing you to land in New Constantinople and Perry when the militia and the Confed are against you. I mean shouldn't there be Captain Goodin or the big security robot waiting for you?

The manual has a bit about how the patrols only have the jurisdiction to stop you for /transporting/ illegal goods and that actually dealing with them on the planets is someone else's job.

 

[kingmakeress]

The manual has a bit about how the patrols only have the jurisdiction to stop you for /transporting/ illegal goods and that actually dealing with them on the planets is someone else's job.

Sounds like a great loophole. Let me guess, Governor Menesch's work 😉😉

it feels like pirates (or some company that sells ships to pirates) named it the gritty street version versus Confed's noble swords.

Oh, like mocking Confed .. it makes sense.

 

[Dyret]

It certainly does suggest it's a pirate-constructed ship... although again there's no particular surprise when Maniac and Blair encounter them at the start of WC4.

Maybe worth noting: when we did the initial world building for Star Citizen, Chris was adamant that pirates would just have their own ships... which is I came up with a legitimate ship company called Drake that sells ships that are intentionally positioned to end up used by pirates.

That's interesting. I've always assumed bespoke pirate ships in sci-fi come from Khyber Pass type workshops, but an actual company building them probably makes more sense, though I have no idea how they'd explain where all their products end up.

 

[Bob McDob]

My memory is a bit off; the game text files don't have a separate Military faction but they do have a separate Police one! Of course in the final game there are no separate police, only the Military (CIS).

That is a good point, it's not something they find unexpected at all.

The common denominator to all these stories (both pirates and groups like the Landreich or the Border Worlds) is that it's ships that are available legitimately being purchased by a private interest and in the case of the pirate ships ends up being involved in piracy. So the higher up the order of battle you'll get, the less likely the ship would be made available by the Confederation instead of scrapped or stored in reserve. And it'll vary from era to era; a lot more surplus warships in 2670 than there are in 266

And of course the Guild aren't mere pirates at all, they're

s It's a shame that other works didn't take up that conceit of having perfectly legitimate groups that will also rob and destroy your enemy's property, for a fee. I guess it's not something that fits well into the main storyline because humans and kilrathi would be almost constantly hostile once the war began.

It's all four!

Papogod - Tohono Oʼodham, formerly referred to as Papago
Kiowan - Kiowa
Chirichan - Chiricahua
Jincilla - Jicarilla Apache

IIRC this did get pointed out a bunch when the game first shipped but you rarely see it mentioned!

Good catch, I never caught the last one!

 

[Bandit LOAF]

That's interesting. I've always assumed bespoke pirate ships in sci-fi come from Khyber Pass type workshops, but an actual company building them probably makes more sense, though I have no idea how they'd explain where all their products end up.

Our touchstone for this was endless Toyota pickup trucks ending up in the hands of terrorists! Nobody blames Toyota... or do they?!

My memory is a bit off; the game text files don't have a separate Military faction but they do have a separate Police one! Of course in the final game there are no separate police, only the Military (CIS).

This is tied to a big cut that I don't quite understand. But you can go back to at least one of the scripts we have and find there was a police 'section' to the game that took place on the planets... and there was a gameplay aspect where you traveled around the planet in a sort of interactive maze relating to it. It's all totally unclear to me but I think it was part of the game for longer than we realize!

 

[kingmakeress]

That's interesting. I've always assumed bespoke pirate ships in sci-fi come from Khyber Pass type workshops, but an actual company building them probably makes more sense, though I have no idea how they'd explain where all their products end up.

Good question .. probably a plethora of spare parts, a flexible design able to work with a range of parts, and some bribes if I had to guess