PERRY, where do you land?

Ask a smartass question, get a smartass answer. I actually find this discussion to be fairly interesting, so I'd be much obliged if you could find it in yourself to either contribute, or withold your lack of wit.

Getting back on topic...

In truth, the suggestion that Perry is twice as large as the Wing Commander II starbase was fairly arbitrary. I wouldn't be so quick to discount Gemini as an unimportant sector, however; it was clearly important enough for Confed to fortify the border before widespread colonization began, placing a major military installation way off the beaten path. It would seem to me that the nerve center of the sector, overseeing the blockade of several systems and naval operations throughout the sector, would be pretty large.

Working just with what we have, which admittedly isn't much, we can reasonably say that the upper sphere has about a hundred decks (judging from the number of windows). And, it's certainly possible that the majority of these windows correspond to the storeys-high windows seen in the background of the main concourse, although more likely these are only present around the equator.

What it comes right down to, however, is what we don't know... which, as LOAF pointed out, is pretty much everything. Then again, how would we make educated guesses without discussion like this?
 
6and7eighths said:
In truth, the suggestion that Perry is twice as large as the Wing Commander II starbase was fairly arbitrary. I wouldn't be so quick to discount Gemini as an unimportant sector, however; it was clearly important enough for Confed to fortify the border before widespread colonization began, placing a major military installation way off the beaten path.

Perry isn't that far off the path, because there are certainly quite a number of sectors where conflicts occur that are further out than Gemini. But LOAF's right in saying the starbases we see are usually in quite strategic areas along main jump routes to critical worlds. Although Gwenydd is described as something of a backwater because it's not along a direct route to the inner worlds, it is a border system in the critical Enigma Sector.
 
wow....100 meters or so? i did some comparison stuff, and based on cockpit interiors and putting a human sized figure relative to the privateer ships....there is NO way they are anywhere near 100 meters in size. more in the 30 or so meter range. in fact, for the tarsus, it came out to be about 36.8 meters. compare off the cockpits of the other craft, and you'll discover they're not going to be much bigger than that.

thats my .02 in this argument/debate/whatever.
 
Off topic, I wonder how large Perry is? I remember at the Fleet Tactics website saying that Ella is 4 kilometers and Sol Station is 10 kilometers.
 
ChrisReid said:
Perry isn't that far off the path, because there are certainly quite a number of sectors where conflicts occur that are further out than Gemini. But LOAF's right in saying the starbases we see are usually in quite strategic areas along main jump routes to critical worlds. Although Gwenydd is described as something of a backwater because it's not along a direct route to the inner worlds, it is a border system in the critical Enigma Sector.
Just because Gemini sits adjascent to Sol doesn't make it any less of a backwater. It's sparsely settled and scarcely explored. A number of systems still possess their Exploratory Service catalog numbers, rather than proper names (for example, ND-57 sits right off of New Detroit, arguably the most heavily developed planet in the sector.) The significance of Perry's location seems to be that it was the absolute limit of Confed influence when the border was fortified, and the chokepoint between the rest of the sector and the Kilrathi border. To whit;
Wing Commander: Privateer manual said:
Gemini is still a newborn sector struggling to find her feet. It has only been 30 years since the military set out to contain Kilrathi expansion by entrenching along the border. It was during this early entrenching period that the Exploratory Services (ES) were first called in to map out available resources, including habitable planets, mineral-rich asteroids and jump tunnels.

Within the first five years of exploration, two major factors contributed to the opening of Gemin to public enterprise. The first was the rapid entrenchment of military forces far from established supply lines and support services -- they needed access to local resources. The second factor was the tremendous wealth of resources discovered by the ES in Gemini. This was essential in boosting the Confederation's gross worth.
At the time the border was fortified, Perry was of incredible strategic importance. Without it, standing vigil far from the core worlds of the Confederation, the Kilrathi would easily have been able to expand into Gemini and have a straight shot into the Sol sector (Oxford > Mastif > Weslyn > Sirius > Sol).

Moving on.
BradMick said:
wow....100 meters or so? i did some comparison stuff, and based on cockpit interiors and putting a human sized figure relative to the privateer ships....there is NO way they are anywhere near 100 meters in size. more in the 30 or so meter range. in fact, for the tarsus, it came out to be about 36.8 meters. compare off the cockpits of the other craft, and you'll discover they're not going to be much bigger than that.

thats my .02 in this argument/debate/whatever.
I haven't taken the opportunity to measure their exact dimensions recently, but I think it's clear that the Tarsus is by far the smallest of the four available ships. The Centurion, on the other hand, is clearly a massive vessel, considering that the cockpit appears so small on the exterior, and must be deep enough to stand upright in as it has an iris hatch along its back wall.

But, once again, that number was completely arbitrary based upon what we do know of other ships with more complete statistics that fulfil similar functions (Venture, Drayman, Clydesdale and Free Trader, all of which measure between 75 and 100 meters)
 
Last edited by a moderator:
6and7eighths said:
At the time the border was fortified, Perry was of incredible strategic importance. Without it, standing vigil far from the core worlds of the Confederation, the Kilrathi would easily have been able to expand into Gemini and have a straight shot into the Sol sector (Oxford > Mastif > Weslyn > Sirius > Sol).

However Oxford itself is another half dozen jumps from the border. And it's no straight shot to get to the Kilrathi border in Gemini from the Kilrathi core to begin with. The whole point of discussing Perry's significance was to try to relate it to Olympus Station and the other bases along the heavily contested lines through Enigma. Of course Perry is important, but there are more dangerous borders elsewhere, so there's no point in saying Perry should inherently be this massive superbase beyond what we see in Enigma.
 
I think you're missing my point, somewhat. Since we don't know exactly where the northernmost border of the Confederation was prior to Gemini's colonization, it's a fairly reasonable assumption to make that the Kilrathi would have quickly dominated the entire sector without anything to stand in their way, effectively creating a home front in a war that already had the Confederation stretched pretty thin. We'd be talking about the Gemini campaign in addition to Vega and Enigma.

Of course, that line of thinking is just alternate timeline nonsense, and should be rightly written off as such. However, there's an important distinction between Perry and bases like Olympus Station; most notably, their primary purpose. Perry is clearly meant to act as a staging area for operations throughout several neighboring systems, even the quadrant as a whole, while Olympus (and, theorhetically, other stations of its ilk) is clearly meant to defend a single planet.

It's also the sector command center, which I guess ought to mean something. My whole point is, just because it doesn't have 'super' before its designation, like Ella, doesn't mean that it's not a really big space station anyway.

Perhaps in retrospect, I should have been more clear when I suggested it was 'twice as large' as a Starbase. Assuming that it has precisely the same diameter of 1200 meters, it's still more than twice as large because it's substantially taller, pole to pole, and appears to possess greater volume.
 
You can make whatever scenario in Gemini that you want, but an even scarier scenario exists if you don't fortify each direct line of travel between the two cores. Perry is the sector HQ, but there hasn't been a major battle there in over a decade. Meanwhile fleets are ravaging eachother back and forth across Vega and Enigma. I'd want a bigger base over a planet under the imminent threat of invasion instead of blocking a quadrant that is out of the way. Nobody said it wasn't a big station, the biggest in the sector, but we just don't have any reason whatsoever from the information presented in the thread here to make arbitrary distinctions such as "twice the size" of another starbase.
 
Well, I don't really have much more to throw out there, then. It's clear that I'm not going to convince you. More's the pity that the team behind Privateer didn't see fit to provide us with more information about their contribution to the Wing Commander universe... So, I guess I'll leave off with this anecdotal conclusion; if one station looks like it's larger than the other, then odds are it probably is.
 
also, i might add...if you use the ship dealer area witht he knowledge that the man standing in the center of the room is appx. 1.8 m (6 foot) tall....you can get a pretty good guestimate as to the sizes of the ships. which are nowhere in that 100 meter-esque range. i agree, its big. but it's not as big that.
 
Yep, okay, I get it now. I'll just proceed without being to logical about the size of it all.
 

Attachments

  • Perry02.jpg
    Perry02.jpg
    92.4 KB · Views: 167
6and7eighths said:
Ask a smartass question, get a smartass answer. I actually find this discussion to be fairly interesting, so I'd be much obliged if you could find it in yourself to either contribute, or withold your lack of wit.

My lack of wit? You were one that said something obscure.
Please don't start a flamewar. I know that WC ship sizes are usually quite innacurate, but if you fly your centaurion close to a broadsword you'll see that they are about the same size. (i think, not sure though) I don't think a ship about the size of a broadsword could be a hundred meters, even though the size of the sprites in wing commander are highly innacurate. I admit that the cantaurion is large, but the numbers you pulled out of HAT are simply insane. Read Brad's posts a few more times. They make good sense.

The short version: They're big, not that big.
 
Can anyone give me a clue as to what this is? I've modeled the basic shapes but I can't -for the life of me- figure out what I've made... :confused:
 

Attachments

  • Perry05.jpg
    Perry05.jpg
    82.2 KB · Views: 216
Okay... When I started texturing this it was morning and now that it's the dead of night, I am one proud guy. I've been trying out new texture styles and I'm real happy on how this came out.
http://img209.echo.cx/img209/1147/perry060ix.jpg
http://img209.echo.cx/img209/4640/perry084fd.jpg
http://img209.echo.cx/img209/2250/perry094sf.jpg
http://img209.echo.cx/img209/8137/perry104vb.jpg
http://img209.echo.cx/img209/8527/perry115vq.jpg
http://img209.echo.cx/img209/5356/perry072tn.jpg
I've even prepared the flight-control both for even more details- I'm thinking of adding terminals, screens, control panels...
http://img209.echo.cx/img209/6774/perry124oj.jpg
http://img209.echo.cx/img209/1329/perry138ht.jpg
 
I disagree somewhat. My point earlier that I was trying to make was not that it's impossible for the civilian ships to enter and leave from the bottom bay of Perry but that one picture doesn't mean that all civilian ships enter and exit through Perry's bottom bay and allmilitary ships enter and exit through the top of Perry. That could very well be true but basing that off of one picture is not conclusive enough for me.

Oh, certainly, I agree with that - we can't know one way or the other; my bone is more with the claim that the artwork should be disregarded because it's a "montage".

That said, if there is some reason that ships have to be divided between military and civilian, then this is certainly how it's done -- since the same artwork also has Stiletto's launching from the 'top' bay.

In regards to the size issue...I disagree because when we look at New Constantinople. There are several ships docked inside the cavernous bay of the station. Noticeably we see quite a size difference between the Drayman (which we really should have hard numbers on size for...) and the Centurion. I don't have the particular picture I'm referring to in front of me but I think there's at least 10 or so ships pictured with plenty of open room between them all. If the Centurion is 100 meters and the Drayman looks to be about 3-5x that size then that means the interior of New Constantinople's hangar area alone is much much larger than 10,000 meters...not to mention the actual living areas of the station.

I believe you are misremembering the New Constantinople artwork. Here's a picture, from Wedge's site:

NewConstantinoplePad.png


Only four ships are visible: two Draymen, a Paradigm and the player ship. None of the ship are at the same 'level', making comparing their lengths impossible (especially the player ship, which doesn't seem to be arranged in the same manner as the other four).

We really don't see a very clear difference between the Drayman and the PlayerShip -- they're in different directions, at different levels and the PlayerShip is apparently sitting flat to the viewpoint while everything else is angled upwards. If anything, the 'feel' of the picture is that the "docking area" is roughly the same size as the Drayman to the left (which is further down the station) -- but that's far from scientific, and the difference in docking ports is clearly meant to indicate that the Drayman is larger. There certainly isn't, however, the 3-5x size difference that you indicated.

I would argue that the Centurion/Galaxy/Orion/Tarsus are 40-70 meters long (they're all roughly the same size), since they're supposed to be one level 'lighter' transports than the 104 meter long Drayman.

As for the size of the hangar area -- note that there's no requirement, since nothing has ever been stated about the size of the station. We can make some estimates based on the known size of the Drayman, as you mentioned.

The original Wing Commander gives a 104-meter length for the Drayman-class. If we apply that to Privateer's artwork, the transport is 59 meters wide and 42 meters high.

Someone with a better eye or who is a better mathamagician than I am can work from there, but I would say that the radius of New Constantinople's docking port seems to be about four Draymen (using the lower Drayman as a visual reference). That gives us a docking port that's ~472 meters across.

Assuming that the docking port is the large circular entrance at the top and bottom of the station, this works out to the station being roughly 6,000 meters across.

wow....100 meters or so? i did some comparison stuff, and based on cockpit interiors and putting a human sized figure relative to the privateer ships....there is NO way they are anywhere near 100 meters in size. more in the 30 or so meter range. in fact, for the tarsus, it came out to be about 36.8 meters. compare off the cockpits of the other craft, and you'll discover they're not going to be much bigger than that.

What you've neglected to mention, however, is that you run into this problem with *every* fighter in Wing Commander when you try to apply their published size statistics to them. :)

Off topic, I wonder how large Perry is? I remember at the Fleet Tactics website saying that Ella is 4 kilometers and Sol Station is 10 kilometers.

I wouldn't take Fleet Tactics' specifications as being particularly reliable -- they wanted to fill in the blanks and they didn't care how they went about doing so.

Working just with what we have, which admittedly isn't much, we can reasonably say that the upper sphere has about a hundred decks (judging from the number of windows). And, it's certainly possible that the majority of these windows correspond to the storeys-high windows seen in the background of the main concourse, although more likely these are only present around the equator.

I count ~25 levels of windows on the top part of the sphere.

Assuming that it has precisely the same diameter of 1200 meters, it's still more than twice as large because it's substantially taller, pole to pole, and appears to possess greater volume.

The *radius* of the WC2 station is 1200 meters -- so the diameter would be 2400 meters. That's why I mentioned it -- they're much, much larger than they look in WC2's sprite engine.
 
Back
Top