That deal didn't go down. Remember: everybody's favorite Borg (wouldn't mind being assimilated by her) accused the merchant of trying to steal Borg-components from her. And seeing how reputation was everything on that planet, it became a big problem and the guy ended up dead. And i don't think the weapon was installed yet (and seeing as how they had "killed" 1 merchant, I think it's safe to say they didn't do bussines with that planet anymore)
Parallel Tonality
- Thread starter Unforgiven
- Start date
That deal didn't go down. Remember: everybody's favorite Borg (wouldn't mind being assimilated by her) accused the merchant of trying to steal Borg-components from her. And seeing how reputation was everything on that planet, it became a big problem and the guy ended up dead. And i don't think the weapon was installed yet (and seeing as how they had "killed" 1 merchant, I think it's safe to say they didn't do bussines with that planet anymore)
Yeah, I remember that part, but that does indicate that Janeway was on the lookout to having Voyager's weaponry improved (and with a mix of outside technologies and a different mindset from the providing culture who knows how that might affect Voyager's weaponry). Also, while its probable that Janeway would have felt a little awkward dealing with other merchants there, we don't know for a certainty that she broke off any further contact with them.
IMHO the greatest reason that Trekkies do not see very much old/new interaction is that often you have a single ship interacting with the enemy. The second greatest reason is that the ships used in Starfleet are for the universe rather massive constructions with large crews that it would be, shall we say, rather difficult for a small group of pirates to acquire and be covert with. In WC, Freespace, and many other universes there are small craft or small-crewed vessels that would be ideal for pirates, are available en masse for buying after the government is finished with them, and are easy to hide in the crowd with. Hence it is not uncommon to see 2, 3, or even 4 generations of craft in combat with each other and the relative differences between weapons, and are able to extrapolate the nature and details of unknown technology from their effect upon that which is known.
First to respond to Frosty, no translation is that I am debating facts not your lack of evidence and need to resort to the lowest of all form of debating tactics which proves nothing other than the fact that you cannot maintain a fact based argument
Ok to respond LOAF just to correct your misunderstanding.
First Negative evidence is accepted in science as being JUST AS valid in proving something as positive evidence. Read Stephen Jay Gould's Essay "The Monster's Human Nature" found in the collection of essays "Dinosaur in a Haystack" published by Harmony Books Copywrite 1995.
While we did not see an intrepid class in the battle of the typhon sector we did see it in DS9 and more importantly we know the general era it is from, it is completely ILLOGICAL to think that a ship will be several orders of magnitude more powerful than a ship which was STATED to be the most powerful in the federation (i am talking about the Soverign Class USS Enterprise-E)
I am not saying that there is onscreen proof, i was stating where the fallicy came from and then i disproved it, when one has conflicting data they take the data that is most verifiable as well as most often shown, ie if you have 1 case showing that gravity doesn't exist and then have 30,000 that it does from more respectable and knowledgable sources then you take the 30,000 rather than the 1. This is obviously an extreme case but is being used for illustration of the correct way to formulate a theory. So in the show two times we are told by very reliable sources (actual memebers of the crew) that the Torpedo's are within a range of 5 isotons of the standard DS9/TNG stated Photon Torpedos. Also the validity of the 200 isoton statement comes from a non-crew member and non-starfleet officer who has not been aboard the ship for any significant length of time whereas the other information comes from starfleet officers and member's of voyager's crew which means that their statements are more likely to be accurate.
While we have seen the ENGINE efficiency of the Excelsiors increased we have seen nothing else, we know that modern phasers tend to come in strips (arrays) that are visable, and that the phasers seen on the Excelsiors and Miranda's of all era's have the "ballpoint" phaser banks that were seen during the TMP era. Thus one can safely know that the standard Excelsior and Miranda class ships have not been equiped with standard modern type X or type XII phaser arrays.
Also at the time that Voyager left DS9 all the systems on the defiant were considered experimental (as told by sisko in the third season DS9 premere) this includes it's weapons systems. Also in the same episode the Quantum torpedos were stated to be the most powerful in Starfleet, and i have shown based on the DS9 TM that they are not nearly as powerful as the stated "200" isoton weapons, meaning that the 200 isoton statement must be invalid.
I was the one who pointed to that supposed upgrade that voyager got an isokenetic cannon, which acted (as described in the show) much the way a rail gun works today. now in the episode it was never fully installed and more importantly in it's future engagements with the borg it was never used.
Ok well this is all that see necessary to bring up at this juncture.
Originally posted by Bandit LOAF
This is true -- however, it is also true that we don't see an Intrepid class during this battle, yes?
You can't prove a negative in this manner -- without stated proof, there is no contradiction. Further, you cannot claim that her weapons are not more powerful, when the onscreen evidence indicates they are... ("Sure, I saw the explosion... but nobody told me it happened! So it didn't!")
What you're saying here is that there's *on screen proof* that Voyager's torpedoes *are* more powerful? Why can you explain away for no reason something that is explicitly stated but *not* explain away what you percieve as a contradiction? If you're willing to "Well... Seven probably meant I was right! She just said the opposite because of conspiracies! And evil!" then why can't you "Well... the Borg in the Delta quadrant may not be as powerful because they weren't expecting to fight humans" or somesuch? The simple fact that you've *made up* an excuse for the show to be wrong shows what it is you're interested in...
Then isn't *this* the contradiction? That they'd have more powerful weapons but not use them? Maybe they're using the more powerful type of torpedo that Voyager seems to have...
We've certainly seen Excelsiors updated before with no visual change as well... the first TNG episode with the Traveler starts off by talking about an Excelsior that just had her engines updated. Is there something in the Federation charter that says ships can upgrade everything but their weapons?
Lack of evidence is never proof that something doesn't exist -- and it can *especially* never be used to prove that something else *can't* exist.
Actually, even if we ignore the nonsense behind your evidence, it makes no sense. Allow:
* You state that old ships (Excelsiors, Mirandas, etc) cannot have not been upgraded for mystery reason X and therefore still mount older weaponry.
* You state that newer ships in the same era (Defiant, etc.) mount newer, more powerful weapons concurrently (during the same battles).
* You state that Voyager, another newer ship, must mount older weaponry because it existed concurrently with older ships.
This doesn't make sense.
Didn't Voyager the Defiant model at least once?
I'm not one for numbers, but we should probably get some quotes behind this...
Ok to respond LOAF just to correct your misunderstanding.
First Negative evidence is accepted in science as being JUST AS valid in proving something as positive evidence. Read Stephen Jay Gould's Essay "The Monster's Human Nature" found in the collection of essays "Dinosaur in a Haystack" published by Harmony Books Copywrite 1995.
While we did not see an intrepid class in the battle of the typhon sector we did see it in DS9 and more importantly we know the general era it is from, it is completely ILLOGICAL to think that a ship will be several orders of magnitude more powerful than a ship which was STATED to be the most powerful in the federation (i am talking about the Soverign Class USS Enterprise-E)
I am not saying that there is onscreen proof, i was stating where the fallicy came from and then i disproved it, when one has conflicting data they take the data that is most verifiable as well as most often shown, ie if you have 1 case showing that gravity doesn't exist and then have 30,000 that it does from more respectable and knowledgable sources then you take the 30,000 rather than the 1. This is obviously an extreme case but is being used for illustration of the correct way to formulate a theory. So in the show two times we are told by very reliable sources (actual memebers of the crew) that the Torpedo's are within a range of 5 isotons of the standard DS9/TNG stated Photon Torpedos. Also the validity of the 200 isoton statement comes from a non-crew member and non-starfleet officer who has not been aboard the ship for any significant length of time whereas the other information comes from starfleet officers and member's of voyager's crew which means that their statements are more likely to be accurate.
While we have seen the ENGINE efficiency of the Excelsiors increased we have seen nothing else, we know that modern phasers tend to come in strips (arrays) that are visable, and that the phasers seen on the Excelsiors and Miranda's of all era's have the "ballpoint" phaser banks that were seen during the TMP era. Thus one can safely know that the standard Excelsior and Miranda class ships have not been equiped with standard modern type X or type XII phaser arrays.
Also at the time that Voyager left DS9 all the systems on the defiant were considered experimental (as told by sisko in the third season DS9 premere) this includes it's weapons systems. Also in the same episode the Quantum torpedos were stated to be the most powerful in Starfleet, and i have shown based on the DS9 TM that they are not nearly as powerful as the stated "200" isoton weapons, meaning that the 200 isoton statement must be invalid.
I was the one who pointed to that supposed upgrade that voyager got an isokenetic cannon, which acted (as described in the show) much the way a rail gun works today. now in the episode it was never fully installed and more importantly in it's future engagements with the borg it was never used.
Ok well this is all that see necessary to bring up at this juncture.
-]
Mekt-Hakkikt
Mpanty's bane
Hey Bob, what's with you and your spacebattles.com advertising all the time? You get paid for it? 
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
Firstoff, drop the jackass routine. Frosty is being mean to you -- the rest of us are being civil. This is not a license for you to act like a jerk.
Second, drop the 'educated' thing. Your "I suggest you read whatever" down to the copywrite date was just about the stupidest thing I read this month. And I run a Wing Commander fan site. Do the math. (Furthermore, if you're going to go for the pseudo-intellectual angle, find something that's smarter than a collection of essays designed for laypersons).
Now to the issue of negative proof: This is why archaeology is not considered a hard science, though -- so much of it relies on speculation. (This is not to offend anthropologists -- their science intrisically involves situations where proof is impossible). Even in the context of a soft science, though, such explanations make no sense. Archaeology relies on the little pieces that are discovered, and uses the empty spaces to *explain* them. If I find that there are fluted points 2 feet down and then stemmed points 5 feet under that, and absolutely nothing in between I have to explain *why* I found this, not why it doesn't exist. Similarly if we know that torpedoes are X powerful at three points, then (if we want to take a scientific approach) we must explain *why*.
There are too many variables, though. And they've already all been discussed and ignored: Voyager has upgraded, Voyager has a Borg crewmember, the Borg aren't necessarily of the same strength... and so on, and so forth.
Lastly -- didn't the "Sovreign class USS Enterprise-E" thwack a Borg cube fairly easily? Once Enterprise arrived, the fleet immediately rallied and won...
No, we don't know any of this -- none of it is stated. All we know is that parts of the Excelsiors have been upgraded. We have absolutely no indication anywhere that modern phasers *must* be in strips -- it's just as 'logical' to assume that if the Excelsiors phasers were upgraded they were designed in such a manner that would fit in the space available.
But this 'empty space' can be filled with dozens of logical explanations that do *not* involve making something already stated impossible: Voyager upgraded her torpedoes, Sisko is unaware of unique new weapons mounted on Voyager, etc. (The former is especially logical, since Voyager 'mathematically' runs out of torpedoes at one point in the show... the fact that she has more indicates another source).
I don't think they actually finished that particular upgrade. But that doesn't mean they could *never* upgrade the ship again. Particularly since we know they were *trying* to...
Second, drop the 'educated' thing. Your "I suggest you read whatever" down to the copywrite date was just about the stupidest thing I read this month. And I run a Wing Commander fan site. Do the math. (Furthermore, if you're going to go for the pseudo-intellectual angle, find something that's smarter than a collection of essays designed for laypersons).
Now to the issue of negative proof: This is why archaeology is not considered a hard science, though -- so much of it relies on speculation. (This is not to offend anthropologists -- their science intrisically involves situations where proof is impossible). Even in the context of a soft science, though, such explanations make no sense. Archaeology relies on the little pieces that are discovered, and uses the empty spaces to *explain* them. If I find that there are fluted points 2 feet down and then stemmed points 5 feet under that, and absolutely nothing in between I have to explain *why* I found this, not why it doesn't exist. Similarly if we know that torpedoes are X powerful at three points, then (if we want to take a scientific approach) we must explain *why*.
There are too many variables, though. And they've already all been discussed and ignored: Voyager has upgraded, Voyager has a Borg crewmember, the Borg aren't necessarily of the same strength... and so on, and so forth.
Lastly -- didn't the "Sovreign class USS Enterprise-E" thwack a Borg cube fairly easily? Once Enterprise arrived, the fleet immediately rallied and won...
No, we don't know any of this -- none of it is stated. All we know is that parts of the Excelsiors have been upgraded. We have absolutely no indication anywhere that modern phasers *must* be in strips -- it's just as 'logical' to assume that if the Excelsiors phasers were upgraded they were designed in such a manner that would fit in the space available.
But this 'empty space' can be filled with dozens of logical explanations that do *not* involve making something already stated impossible: Voyager upgraded her torpedoes, Sisko is unaware of unique new weapons mounted on Voyager, etc. (The former is especially logical, since Voyager 'mathematically' runs out of torpedoes at one point in the show... the fact that she has more indicates another source).
I don't think they actually finished that particular upgrade. But that doesn't mean they could *never* upgrade the ship again. Particularly since we know they were *trying* to...
Frosty
a full fledged GF
I haven't lost an argument with a CZer in recent memory.
The fact that I have to be that way to get through to you doesn't negate my point. You think that if you cover your ears and hum really loud so you can't hear anyone else who disagrees, that makes you right. Sorry to bust your bubble pal, but that doesn't make us go away.
I'm ever so terribly sorry if I don't ignore it like everyone else, and pretend that I can have a rational argument with you. You're clearly irrational, and you'll clearly never concede or change your arrogant mind no matter how plainly the facts are laid before you, so I see no point in persuing the matter in any other fashion.
Lots of people, especially LOAF, have shot you down three or four times already, you just dust yourself off, pretend not to have heard anything and act as if that makes you the winner.
Maybe one day you'll wake up and realize that everyone is laughing at you, and nobody agrees with you, and that probably makes you wrong.
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
Because you were being stupid, which is a CZ no-no. We've already *got* a thread about this.
more like I give perfectly decent arguments and they are rebuffed and I rebuff the rebuttal the problem is that I am arguing based on the commonly accepted scientific way of accepting information (accepting Negative Evidence, which BTW is accepted by most scientists and sciences, however Loaf I was mearly citing a work that explains the concept to non-scientists, and why it is acceptable, excuse me for trying to give you relevant data to the converstation i wont EVER do THAT again). Also Frosty, just because others have not called you on your logical fallacy (called Argumenum ad Homonim to debators and rhetoriticians) does not mean that you are arguing in a correct matter, i make a point of point out your error then i address specific critisisms.
Also LOAF, Evolutionary Biology, Paleontology, and Biology are all pretty well accepted as science. Also the Negative Evidence argument applies to chemistry and physics to.
Finally on to LOAF's points:
Voyager may have upgraded but she did not have a borg crew member throughout the entire series, also since we have not SEEN any weapons beyond most normal weapons most of the time (she still uses photon torpedos and type X phasers, at least visually) it is very logical.
When in FC the enterprise first encounters the Borg Cube, and enters the battle, data shows a display of the status of the Cube, and it is stated either be him or picard (cannot recall, if anyone really doubts the veracity of this i will find my tape) that the cube was heavily damaged. The enterprise in adition to every other ship in the fleet conentrates on the target area and most of the physical and visual damage is caused by all the weapons of other ships, however the "straw that broke the camels back" was the volley of quantum torpedos from the E-E.
The Excelsiors/Miranda's, loaf you are pretty much arguing there that the NX-Enterprise (from the show enterprise) could be carring 10 borg drones and 30,000 trilithium devices (the ones that destroyed stars in Generations) and could have miniature Dragon fighters from WC armed with Phase Transit Cannons and Black hole projectors just becuase they never specifically told us that they did not have them. This is a rediculous way of viewing the shows and it is impossible to argue against since you could claim EXACTLY what i stated above and well no one could object because according to you they have to state in on screen in order for it to be acceptable. You probably also believe that ST navigational deflectors can deflect any form of laser blast no matter what the power (something that is impossible within conventional physics, nothing can deflect all power levels all objects or energy field have a certain amount of energy that they simply cannot deflect, which is why if you end enough energy into a mirror it will eventually shatter. The Excelsior/Miranda's are seen to not only employ a type of phaser (from VISUAL evidence) that can only be from a bank (since arrays require for many banks to be combined and then have the charge up effect seen on the E-D in TNG and in most battle scenes involving ships built after the ambassador class. These are also present on ALL conventional Starfleet ships that are of a design lineage made after the ambassador, thus it would be extremely logical that there is a REASON why they do this, that means that by not employing this the Excelsiors and Miranda's are not able to take advantage of the advantage given by said change. Also we have seen them firing and they fire weapons that are consitant with the exterior ball phaser banks.
LOAF can you please tell me at what point within the first 3-5 months of voyager's journies when they upgraded their weapons considerably? Because the time when ben sisko stated that the quantum torpedos were the best in starfleet was only 3-5 months after voyager left DS9.
What I am saying LOAF is not that voyager never upgraded again what i am saying is that we never SAW them upgrading again.
Unforgiven
Spaceman
This is what us computer scientists call the 'Closed World Assumption' (it's the fallacy of most logic programming languages and other fact-database based systems). Anything that cannot be proven from the fact database is considered false, because it assumes no world exists beyond the database. In reality such databases can only prove something is true, and determine that they can't prove something is true, but they can never prove something is false.
The same applies here.
And Napoleon, you're example about Borg drones on the NX-1 may be rediculous, but correct. You cannot prove mathematically beyond any doubt that this is false. You can't prove it's true either.
And to quote Spock: "After you eliminate everything else, whatever remains, however unlikely, must be true."
We know Voyager can defeat Borg ships, and the only possibilities we haven't 100% logically eliminated due to the closed world assumption being invalid are dumb luck and upgrades. So one of them must be true.
The same applies here.
And Napoleon, you're example about Borg drones on the NX-1 may be rediculous, but correct. You cannot prove mathematically beyond any doubt that this is false. You can't prove it's true either.
And to quote Spock: "After you eliminate everything else, whatever remains, however unlikely, must be true."
We know Voyager can defeat Borg ships, and the only possibilities we haven't 100% logically eliminated due to the closed world assumption being invalid are dumb luck and upgrades. So one of them must be true.
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
I will tell you the same thing you should tell Frosty in this debate: stop being an asshole.
You should probably familiarize yourself with biology, chemistry and physics, then. Give a physicist two facts and he will theorize an explanation for them (this, alone, goes against what you've done) -- but it will have no bearing until it's been reletively proven.
(The soft sciences will accept the most logical explanation because they have no way of proving their facts -- but biologists/chemists/physicists will not).
She didn't engage the borg throughout the entire series, either -- most of the situations where she won happened *after* Seven's arrival, yes?
It has apparently been stated in the show (according to you!) that these photon torpedoes are more powerful than equivalent starfleet ones. That would seem to be an indication that, well, the photon torpedoes are more powerful than equivalent starfleetones.
So... Starfleet *did* manage to cripple the cube without the amazing super Sovreign class ship? With Excelsiors and older stuff?
No, I'm not -- but you're getting desperate and now are popularizing the argument to make it seem rediculous... any intelligent reader will see through this.
Since you are feigning ignorance, I will explain again: I am saying that it is sensible to assume that starfleet ships weapons may have been upgraded to standards similar to those of newer starfleet ships, because we have seen other systems on the same ships upgraded in the same manner. Similar to how we upgraded WW2 era battleships with modern weaponry in the latter half of the century. This is all I'm saying, and it has been said very specifically and meticulously: you *cannot* make any further conclusions based on it.
I bolded my point -- which I apparently proved.
However, more in-depth: "a rediculous way of viewing the shows"? Spyder's-famous-line, boy. Watching a show and assuming it makes sense because it doesn't *not* make sense is *rediculous*?
Are there continuity errors? Probably -- but you have to prove them with two pieces of evidence rather than one.
Seriously, read that back with a valley girl accent...
Wow... so... you're accusing me of believing something I've never mentioned anything about, and then trying to prove me wrong? If we were having an actual conversation, I'd turn to LeHah and go "desperate!" and make drinking motions with my hands. Or mabye just a swirly 'crazy' sign.
Disagree -- you're using visual evidence to *assume* what you see is proving you right. My take was always that the strips were superior to the older versions simply because they allowed a much greater range of targeting. Neither your 'charging' idea or my targetting idea is a stated fact -- neither proves anything.
Consider, again, that external differences in look didn't prevent them from upgrading the engines on older ships... Going back to my water-navy analogy, the fact that they had to build battleship-specific computers and weaponry for them. It doesn't make sense to say that *only* one kind of phaser can exist (and wasn't the original issue torpedoes, anyway?). If you've got a hundred Excelsiors that you need to upgrade, you upgrade them with what you can...
Why can Voyager have only upgraded within 3-5 months of its 'mission'? The situations involving the borg are years later -- Sisko's statement that Quantum torpedoes (again, can we please get a quote?) are the best in Starfleet have *no* bearing on Voyager having upgraded the weapons she left with before she encountered the borg.
Then you see the point -- this is *not* a continuity error: continuity has not been compromised. It's just an unanswered question...
Unforgiven
Spaceman
To quote Lily: "Actually, I never read it." (from Star Trek: First Contact)Originally posted by Nemesis
. . . who was paraphrasing Sherlock Holmes.
Loaf i will just do a quick overview of why you are incorrect since i am strapped for time.
1. i was explaining my actions and how to actually debate a topic if you don't like the fact that i had to do it tell frosty to stop using logical fallacies in his argumes. I in no way acted like an asshole, i find your desparation to call me names shows that you are running out of FACTS.
2. I am more than aware with actual fields of science, and i am more than aware of the fact that physics depends on negative evidence to a large degree in proving theories.
3. Untrue at all i admitted the possibility that the torpedo's may be slightly more powerful than those stated in the TNG Tm which was published before ds9.
4. Of course it did and that is my entire point that it took an ENTIRE FLEET of that era's ships whereas voyager decided to do it all by itself making it violate continuity.
5. LOAF, there was physical evidence of upgrades to the Iowa class ships. Also my statement is a viable way of describing your take on the attitude with an example that follows your logic or illogic for that matter. As would be with all older starfleet vessels since as stated in both DS9 and TNG TMs type X and XII phasers only come as strips .
6. LOAF my entire point is NOT that voyager didn't happen (ohh i wish as do most ST fans, but it is canon same as chewie's death in sw is) My point is that Voyager demonstrates that ST is discontinous and does not follow it's own timeline. A perfect example of this is the fact that the enterprise a got from somewhere on the boarder of fed space (nimbus III) to the galactic core in several hours at warp 7 yet it is taking voyager 70 years to go 3 times the distance???
7 and 8. I was asking that question seriously, because you seem to be acting like the type who will take every word spoken by characters as if it were the word of god on the matter, and i was showing how picard's words were incorrect because it is a physical impossiblity.
9. Nope the charging thing isnt my idea it is the TNG and DS9 TMs'. As such it is a canon idea so your argument there is wrong.
10. Because we were refering to the Quantum torpedo's being stated to be the best in starfleet, while voyager was armed with type 6 torps (stated by janeway and torres and tuvock repeatedly throughout the series, the episode about the maquis/cardassian planet killer "Dreadnought" is a good example) which is a Star fleet designation and since they were not resupplied by starfleet this type of torpedos existed before she left and thus must be less powerful than Quantums since they were stated to be the most powerful after she left.
11.
1. i was explaining my actions and how to actually debate a topic if you don't like the fact that i had to do it tell frosty to stop using logical fallacies in his argumes. I in no way acted like an asshole, i find your desparation to call me names shows that you are running out of FACTS.
2. I am more than aware with actual fields of science, and i am more than aware of the fact that physics depends on negative evidence to a large degree in proving theories.
3. Untrue at all i admitted the possibility that the torpedo's may be slightly more powerful than those stated in the TNG Tm which was published before ds9.
4. Of course it did and that is my entire point that it took an ENTIRE FLEET of that era's ships whereas voyager decided to do it all by itself making it violate continuity.
5. LOAF, there was physical evidence of upgrades to the Iowa class ships. Also my statement is a viable way of describing your take on the attitude with an example that follows your logic or illogic for that matter. As would be with all older starfleet vessels since as stated in both DS9 and TNG TMs type X and XII phasers only come as strips .
6. LOAF my entire point is NOT that voyager didn't happen (ohh i wish as do most ST fans, but it is canon same as chewie's death in sw is) My point is that Voyager demonstrates that ST is discontinous and does not follow it's own timeline. A perfect example of this is the fact that the enterprise a got from somewhere on the boarder of fed space (nimbus III) to the galactic core in several hours at warp 7 yet it is taking voyager 70 years to go 3 times the distance???
7 and 8. I was asking that question seriously, because you seem to be acting like the type who will take every word spoken by characters as if it were the word of god on the matter, and i was showing how picard's words were incorrect because it is a physical impossiblity.
9. Nope the charging thing isnt my idea it is the TNG and DS9 TMs'. As such it is a canon idea so your argument there is wrong.
10. Because we were refering to the Quantum torpedo's being stated to be the best in starfleet, while voyager was armed with type 6 torps (stated by janeway and torres and tuvock repeatedly throughout the series, the episode about the maquis/cardassian planet killer "Dreadnought" is a good example) which is a Star fleet designation and since they were not resupplied by starfleet this type of torpedos existed before she left and thus must be less powerful than Quantums since they were stated to be the most powerful after she left.
11.
Originally posted by Ghost
This is not a timeline problem, a timeline problem would be if Riker is the son of Picard because Picard travelled to the past, the trouble with the warp velocities it is another class of problem that is not concerned with the Time´s Arrow
i never said it was a problem with timetravel i said it was a problem with continuity and i meant that they had things happening that were directly contradicting previous episodes and movies.
AD
Finder of things, Doer of stuff
There are two kinds of people. Blah blah cliché whatever. Anyway, there are those who asume the worst and there are those who asume the best. Hence there are those who aproach a said discussion and say that there can not be inconsistencies and thus search for an explanation even if very contrived and there are those who chose to believe the system is flawed. THey thus argue that way and find it easier to say the system is flawed then to search themselves for an explanation. Granted star trek (nor WC for that fact) are the Bible but it's pretty much the same aproach with which critics try to attack what others claim is its internal harmony.
For example, Everything in this universe had a begining, and scientists seem to agree that so did the universe. Thus at some point life arose (by whatever means you chose to believe). But you wernt there. That doesn't mean it never happened! In fact you very existence proves that it did!
Sometimes theres a little more to everything than meet the eye.
AD
For example, Everything in this universe had a begining, and scientists seem to agree that so did the universe. Thus at some point life arose (by whatever means you chose to believe). But you wernt there. That doesn't mean it never happened! In fact you very existence proves that it did!
Sometimes theres a little more to everything than meet the eye.
AD