Outcome of Terran/Kilrathi War

Originally posted by pygmypiranha
That's what I am tlaking about. Certainly the kind of gun that I would love to have on my ship. Now the question comes forth, How on Earth did they take down a Sivar Class Drednought to actually get the weapon from the Kilrathi? It certainly would be an awesome story to hear about and/or watch. You don't have to answer that I just think that it would be pretty cool to read up on... THE BUILDING OF THE CONCORDIA :D Awesome ship, deserves more credit.
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The Sivar in question was actually completely different from its big sister in WC3. It was actually smaller than most capital ships, and considering its size, was probably little more than the gun with engines. To the best of our knowledge, it was used exactly once, in a test run against a small Confed colony, and then was tracked down by the Confed Bengal-class carrier Tiger's Claw, which launched a daring unsupported raid behind Kilrathi lines in order to track down and kill the Sivar.
After killing the Sivar, the Tiger's Claw made a run for the Confed border, and succesfully evaded Kilrathi patrols and reached friendly lines.
All of the above is detailed in Secret Missions 1, the original Wing Commander expansion.
Fallout from the incident included the execution of Thrakhath's father, who was held responsible by the Emperor for the fiasco, and Jazz's decision to turn traitor against Confed.
Shortly after the destruction of the Sivar, Confed agents launched another daring raid behind Kilrathi lines, this time in an attempt to secure the Sivar wreckage for study (apparently the Kilrathi left it floating where it was destroyed). They were successful in completing this, and took the weapon and refined into the Phase-Transit Cannon carried on-board the Concordia.

One thing I'm curious about - where exactly does the name Phase-Transit come from? Anyone know?
 
The dreadnought from Wing Commander III doesn't have a class name that we're aware of. The ship that Thrakhath is frequently seen on, however, is called the Hvar'kann.
 
Originally posted by junior
The Sivar in question was actually completely different from its big sister in WC3. It was actually smaller than most capital ships, and considering its size, was probably little more than the gun with engines.
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Personally, I still think that's a mistake. If the Sivar had truly been meant to be 100 metres in size, then the PTC would not form the keel of a ten times bigger Confederation-class.

Shortly after the destruction of the Sivar, Confed agents launched another daring raid behind Kilrathi lines, this time in an attempt to secure the Sivar wreckage for study (apparently the Kilrathi left it floating where it was destroyed).
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That's pure speculation, unless you're talking about some source I don't remember. A much more likely explanation is that Tiger's Claw took the Sivar wreckage in tow on its way out.

One thing I'm curious about - where exactly does the name Phase-Transit come from? Anyone know?
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Phase shields. This weapon doesn't damage phase shields, it goes straight through them and inflicts damage directly on the hull of the ship. Therefore, phase-transit.
 
Originally posted by junior
Capship? Pfft! [The Connie will] shoot fighters with the [PTC]!
(and I thought Fralthras turning the AMGs on my bomber was bad...)
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Heh, not fair! I always wanted to (deliberately) get blown up by that (for fun), but never managed it. Although getting blasted by the Cerberus' plasma cannon or those Plunketts is pretty bad.

Originally posted by Quarto
Personally, I still think that's a mistake. If the Sivar had truly been meant to be 100 metres in size, then the PTC would not form the keel of a ten times bigger Confederation-class.
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I used to think that too, but if you remember the PTC was only based on the Kilrathi's Proton Accelerator. Perhaps Confed engineers could not reproduce the technology as efficiently, and hence ended up with a version of the gun which was much larger. True, it's hard to imagine that it ended up nearly ten times as large, but still... Also, although in-game sprites were hardly to scale, the Sivar in SM1 seemed very small to me.

Originally posted by Quarto
That's pure speculation, unless you're talking about some source I don't remember. A much more likely explanation is that Tiger's Claw took the Sivar wreckage in tow on its way out.
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Agreed.
 
Originally posted by Wedge009
I used to think that too, but if you remember the PTC was only based on the Kilrathi's Proton Accelerator. Perhaps Confed engineers could not reproduce the technology as efficiently, and hence ended up with a version of the gun which was much larger. True, it's hard to imagine that it ended up nearly ten times as large, but still... Also, although in-game sprites were hardly to scale, the Sivar in SM1 seemed very small to me.
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It's no an exact reproduction, it isn't supposed to be... It's a gun *based* on the information recovered regarding the Sivar. It does less damage, with a faster refire.
 
All the less reason to expect that the PTC had to be as small as the Proton-Accelerator thingy.

[Although it's funny that a smaller gun packs a much bigger punch :)]
 
Originally posted by Wedge009
True, it's hard to imagine that it ended up nearly ten times as large, but still... Also, although in-game sprites were hardly to scale, the Sivar in SM1 seemed very small to me.
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Well, that's another story entirely... the Sivar certainly wasn't the biggest damned capship ever that Blair claimed it was ;). As close as I can determine (WC1 ship data in the EXE includes size info, but we don't understand it 100%), the Sivar is around 400 metres in size. That makes it quite a bit bigger than the 100 metres from the SWC manual, at least.

My problem with the Sivar, though, is that no matter what excuse we find to explain the Concordia's PTC being ten times as big, there is no excuse to explain why a ship the size of a Dorkir (or a Fralthi, in the 400 metres case) would be called a 'Dreadnought'. It's ridiculous, given the history of WC dreadnoughts. They were always the biggest ships, the best armoured, and the best armed. The Sivar fulfills the latter two conditions, but not the first. With its current size, it can't be a 'Dreadnought'. Call it a mobile gun or something, but not a dreadnought :p.
 
The length originally comes from the Joan's Update Origin did for the July '91 CGW, IIRC.

Your comments make no sense, though -- the Dorkir is a transport and not a dreadnought because it transports stuff. The Sivar is a dreadnought because it has a giant colony-destroying gun.

It's also very odd to 'consider the history of WC' when the ship in question was the *first* dreadnought to appear in the series...
 
'Tisn't. IIRC, the Movie also included a dreadnought, and the Movie came before SM1.

WC dreadnoughts are usually capable of defeating virtually any other capship of their time. The Sivar has a really big gun, but even though the gun can pierce phase shields, it could only kill a capship if the capship stood still and waited patiently for the Sivar to take aim. In other words, the Sivar has more in common with the Kraken than the Tiamat.
 
Originally posted by Quarto
'Tisn't. IIRC, the Movie also included a dreadnought, and the Movie came before SM1.
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Yes, but in the REAL WORLD (you know, the one where all the WC stuff is created), the Sivar came first.

Differences in size between the PTC on the Concordia and the main gun on the Sivar can be explained away by the equipment necessary to allow it to fire more rapidly, a poor understanding of the equipment by Confed, or just targeting equipment. After all, the Concordia could hit fighters with its PTC, while we don't know if the Sivar could accurately hit anything smaller than a colony. Maybe the extra mass is just really accurate scanners?

Recovering the wreckage - I could have sworn the ship guide included in WC2 implied that the Sivar wreckage was recovered by a different group than the Tiger's Claw. My personal opinion is that Halcyon wouldn't be too thrilled with the idea of towing the Sivar home with half of the Kilrathi navy actively hunting for him. Clear out and send a note to Confed denoting the location. Confed can then have a group take the direct route to the wreckage, instead of having to search for it, which is what the Tiger's Claw had to do.
 
Originally posted by junior
Yes, but in the REAL WORLD (you know, the one where all the WC stuff is created), the Sivar came first.
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Irrelevant.

Recovering the wreckage - I could have sworn the ship guide included in WC2 implied that the Sivar wreckage was recovered by a different group than the Tiger's Claw. My personal opinion is that Halcyon wouldn't be too thrilled with the idea of towing the Sivar home with half of the Kilrathi navy actively hunting for him.
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No such thing was implied. Furthermore, there is no Kilrathi navy actively hunting for him. We were the ones hunting, and we hunted down every last ship from that strike force. What few ships there are around defending the sector, the 'Claw could handle. However, the longer you delay, the bigger the risk that Kilrathi forces will appear. By the time the 'Claw could notify anybody else, the Sivar would probably have been recovered by the Kilrathi.

Ironically, the Sivar's supposed size is probably the best argument to support a recovery by the 'Claw. A ship that small could easily fit inside the hangar bay, especially in pieces :).
 
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Originally posted by junior
Yes, but in the REAL WORLD (you know, the one where all the WC stuff is created), the Sivar came first.
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Originally posted by Quarto

Irrelevant.
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Hardly irrelevant when you factor in what prompted the the whole thing:

Originally posted by BanditLOAF
It's also very odd to 'consider the history of WC' when the ship in question was the *first* dreadnought to appear in the series...
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Originally posted by Qarto
'Tisn't. IIRC, the Movie also included a dreadnought, and the Movie came before SM1.

WC dreadnoughts are usually capable of defeating virtually any other capship of their time. The Sivar has a really big gun, but even though the gun can pierce phase shields, it could only kill a capship if the capship stood still and waited patiently for the Sivar to take aim. In other words, the Sivar has more in common with the Kraken than the Tiamat.
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WC dreadnoughts ARE usually capable of defeating any other cap ship, but when Chris Roberts created the Sivar, there weren't any other dreadnoughts around, and thus the comparison itself is irrelevant. Going by your argument, the later dreadnoughts (Concordia, movie, WC3, and Nephilim models - all of which were created later in the real world) should have had a different class name (perhaps "Battleship"), and the Sivar itself should remain the only dreadnought in the WC setting.

LOAF is basing his argument regarding dev decisions (the arbitrary decision about which ships are labeled dreadnoughts) on real world chronology. You're arguing that the fictional world chronology is the one that applies.
 
Similar to the Salthi->Sartha, Dralthi->Drakhri, etc situation, I suppose the fact that the SM1 Sivar was designed before the movie Sivar is relevant to some degree.

And considering there's only one source which states the length of the Sivar, there really shouldn't be any argument about it just because it doesn't feel right, should there? After all, there are dozens of things you could pick at, eg I still don't like the idea that the Krant has two cockpits, despite the scale of the diagrams in Claw Marks.
 
Originally posted by Wedge009
Similar to the Salthi->Sartha, Dralthi->Drakhri, etc situation, I suppose the fact that the SM1 Sivar was designed before the movie Sivar is relevant to some degree.
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I'm not quite sure how the names of various ships have anything to do with SM1 being made before the movie...
 
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