need some specs on the vesuvious

Vesuvius class Heavy Carrier
Length: 1,600 m
Mass: 250,000 tonnes
Y/P/S: 6/6/6 dps
Max. Speed: 150 kps
Cru. Speed: 100 kps
Weapons -
(14) Anti-Matter Gun
(16) Single Mass-Driver Turret
(24) Dual-Laser Turret
(2) Torpedo Tube
Crew: 7,800
Jump Capable: Yes
Fighter Compliment: 400
Shields: Phase
Ships-
- TCS Vesuvius (CV-70)
- TCS Mt. St. Helens (CV-71)
- TCS McKinley
- TCS Eisen
 
Thanks Bandit :) knew i could count on you. but why is the database on this ship so empty?
oh and dragon, if i cant kill it with my fighters or my guns what the hell am i supposed to do?
*starts throwing porkrinds at the inevitable ESSD*
[mccoy] damn it jim, he's dead :D [/mccoy]
 
Well loaf, you included the TCS EISEN, a ship which is still debated as such for all we know it is not a vesuvius class ship. Just because we (or YOU) think it is does not mean that it is. We can never assume anything. But I dont want to get into a war over this
 
We already determined once and for all that the Eisen is a Vesuvius. Go read the thread about it.

As for the specs, I made them myself! But let me explain them...

Class: Stated in the Wing Commander IV novel.
Length: Measured in the Vision Engine, the only 'scale' WC engine.
Mass: Stated in the Wing Commander IV novel.
Y/P/S: It took 30 seconds from the time the Vesuvius helmsman started to turn his joystick to the point when the Vesuvius was facing the Intrepid... 180 degrees in 30 seconds, 6 degrees per second.
Max. Speed: Maximum speed clocked in the WCIV engine.
Cru. Speed: Standard speed clocked in the WCIV engine.
Weapons -
The anti-matter guns are the 'main batteries' repeatedly mentioned in the WCIV novel -- they correspond with the 14 turrets on the diagram Eisen beams you.

The dual-laser turrets are seen in the FMV, at the top and bottom of each 'wrung' on the side of the carrier (the WCIV novel and screens in WCIV indicate that Vesuvius has dual laser turrets).

The mass driver turrets are from the novel -- we know that the Vesuvius mounts an unidentified number, and that she has 'scores' of smaller defensive turrets. 40 turrets total is the *minimum* for her to have 'scores'... minus 24 dual-lasers already accounted for.

The torpedo tubes are mentioned in the WCIV novel -- Eisen states that the MSH doesn't yet have hers installed.

Crew: Stated in the WCIV novel.
Jump Capable: We see her jump in WCIV and the WCIV novel.
Fighter Compliment: Stated in the WCIV novel.
Shields: Stated in the WCIV novel, encountered in the WCIV game.
Ships-
The Vesuvius appears in WC4, the MSH appears in WC4 and SO. THe McKinley appears in SO, and the Eisen in WCP.
 
Yes loaf I have read several, on the Eisen=vesuvius thing, and many people including my self are not ruling out the possibility that it is an as of yet un-named and unseen class.
 
No it just goes to show that I will not make an assumption that is based purely on circumstantial evidence, and the ever present, "we don't see another class of heavy carrier, so they don't exist" mentality. I personally think there is a good chance the Eisen is a vesuvii, but I shall not rule out the possiblitity that it is not. And if you do blindely accept that the Eisen is a Vesuvius without any proof beyond circumstantial speculation, then you are being unscientific and perhaps belong 200 years ago rather than 560 years in the future
 
But we already proved both that it was almost impossible for the Confederation to have another heavy carrier and that it was the intent of the game designers to have the Eisen as a Vesuvius. We can go over it all again, if you like.
 
Little mixed up there, Napolean. Evidence that the EISEN is not VESUVIUS-class, is pretty much non-existent -- every argument is pure conjecture. THAT, Nap, is circumstancial evidence.

Conversely, evidence supporting the EISEN being VESUVIUS-class is clearly present (albeit not completely concrete.).
 
No there has been reasoning that leads us to assume there are no other classes, but we do not know for sure. Likewise, there is not one decent bit of evedence that says the Eisen is a vesuvius all we know are 3 things: 1. it has more than one wing of fighters. 2. It carrys Vampires. and 3. It isn't a midway. These leave several options for what it could be. 1. A vesuvii 2. an older carrier that has been retrofitted for its squadrons to be grouped in 2 different wings. 3. It is an as of yet unseen class of carrier that was made during or after the war, with most evidence pointing towards the war era. these are the options as to what it could be, we can not be sure that there wasn't another class of carrier that confed made during the war, that was a heavy carrier, that there was at least 1 that survived, no where does anything say, "the only carriers left were Concordias and Rangers" also since the confederation dreadnoughts carried 120 fighters, those fighters were originally organized into 1 wing, but they could have been reorganized, during the ship's most recent rehaul (1 day in space=1 day in dock from Fleet Action) into 2 wings of 60 fighters and pilots. And yes the Eisen could very well be a Vesuvii, I am not counting that out, but there is anti-vesuvii evidence that is just as circumstantial as the pro-vesuvii evidence. 1. With tolwyn gone there was a low likely hood of more Vesuvii being made since he was ramrodding the project through the assembally. 2. There is a naming convention amount Vesuvii and that is to name the ships after mountains/volcanos, all 3 confermed Vesuvii are named after mountains/volcanos.

I shall repeat my self once again that while I am not sure what type of ship the Eisen is, I will not discount the strong possiblity that it is a vesuvii, i just shall not and never shall assume anything based purely on circumstantial evidence that in no way proves anything besides that the ship is not a Midway, that it carrys fighters that are COMMONLY assigned to heavy carriers, and that it carrys at least 2 wings of fighters. Wait a tic here we don't even know the Eisen carried more than 1 wing of fighters, perhaps it was going to be resupplying itself at a base where it had access to a new wing of fighters to take as replacements and it sent it's long wing to the Midway increasing the types of ships that we have seen that it could be to the following: A Concordia, A Bengal, A Confederation, A Ranger even, A Durango (perhaps confed didn't sell every one to the BW), same type as Armada Lexington, or any type of capship that we have not seen yet. While getting rid of your only wing is not too tactically strong an idea, it could happen.
 
Napoleon, give it a rest.
LOAF have made strong points that proves that the Eisen is a Vesuvius, besides a carrier would volutary lose a intire wing to another carrier that actually have at that time more fighters that a Concordia class Carrier, must be a Vesuvius.
If you dont agree with it, the developers intent was making the Eisen a Vesuvius, it did not make it on WC P but the SO do have a Vesuvius model that is unfinished (turrets inside the hull) and for what? That Carrier only shows up in one movie, never in a mission, that is most likely to be the model that they were making to put in WC P.
 
But you've ignored a lot of what we've already pointed out.

Re: your numbered arguments.

1. A low likelyhood of more Vesuvii? What are you talking about -- isn't the TCS McKinley evidence enough that more Vesuvius' were produced after 2673?

2. Although Confederation ships sometimes do have similar names, this is by *no means* a constant -- just look at the Bengals we know about: Bengal, Beacontree, Tiger's Claw, Exeter, Kyoto, Eagle's Talon, Trafalger, Wolfhound. Find the naming convention!

We *do* know that the TCS Eisen carried more than one wing of fighters -- because immediately after transferring the Wolfpack to the Midway, she jumped *ahead* of us, into enemy held territory. This isn't the sort of maneuver you undertake after offloading your entire fighter complement.

Under no circumstance can it be a Confederation class dreadnought -- even if they did some sort of an insane pointless refit to divide the ship into having two under-strength wings (believability of the argument cracks here, mind you, but let us continue), there were no Confederation class ships produced after 2665, because of the PTC recall (Kilrathi Saga manual). Thus, there would be no new ship to name after Eisen.

For this same reason, we automatically discout that it was a ship produced during the war (or even produced before 2673). To bear the name Eisen, the ship would have to be made after 2673.

We also know the names and classes of every single carrier produced in the last decade of the Kilrathi war -- and their classes. We have previously discounted the possibility that *any* of these classes can be the Eisen.

Thus, we must create a new ship.

Now, lets build your fictional mystery carrier -- we'll call her Eisen class, since the Eisen would have to be the first ship produced. We'll start the Eisen project in 2673 and then... take ten years to produce a shipyard! It's 2683! You're two years too late for Prophecy! But that's not all... it takes another five years to get the first carrier online! It's 2687!

Now, I'm not discouting the possibility that the TCS Eisen, amazing mystery heavy carrier entered service in 2687 and then fell into some sort of a time-warp to appear in Prophecy.

And by 'not discounting', I mean 'discounting'.
 
Why the heck cant they use existing shipyards to build a new class of ship? It doesnt make sense that they have to build a whole new one for a whole new ship. As long as it isnt bigger than the Midway theres no reason they couldnt.
 
if the 15 year figure is the one from the End run book, than they are talking about the carriers of the wc2 era. new larger shipyards would have to be built, and each one of these "monsters" would take a while longer to build, specially during peacetime when less money goes into production. eg the liberty ships of ww2, some only took two days to build, but if it wasn't during the war it would take much longer as there would not be a pressing need for breakneck speed.
 
yeah but two Vesuvius class ships didnt appear out of thin air. They didnt build whole new ship yards for all those Murphy's and Plunketts. The capability is there for having new classes of ships built. Especially if the Eisen were a fleet carrier of approximate size, it easily could have been built in existing ship yards. By at least 2676 they had at least two ship yards capable of building Midway class ships or else we wouldnt have the Midway or the Mistreal Sea. And within five years 8 more were to have come online. As far as we know, and we can be pretty sure, the Midway is as big as it gets for Confed (not counting the Behemoth)so any other ships that Confed has could have been built in existing shipyards.
 
Designing AND building ships take time, more time than you might think, even under the rush of wartime.

Technology comes in to play here as well. Old ship classes and their shipyards cannot use more modern technology. Just try to plug anything from today's computers in to one that is several years old. Even better, try getting Privaterr to run on a Win9x box. I, as well as just about everyone else here, can tell you right now you won't be able to do it. The two technologies are incompatable to each other. The same thing goes with ships and fighters. This is also why each ship class gets its own shipyard.

The Eisen appears to use 2670s technology. That is it needed a 2670s shipyard to be built. Therefore it must of be of a newer class, and LOAF's post takes it from there.
 
Remember that there *aren't* many existing shipyards -- the Kilrathi savaged them in 2668. The Trojan IV yards survived, and were used to build the Midway class ships (starting in 2676). The Vesuvii are a special case -- they were produced *without* a shipyard (recall that most of Earth's industries were destroyed at the Battle of Terra). Tolwyn 'borrowed' foundry ships from the colonies (recall Blair's amazement -- 'how *are* you doing this, Admiral?').

Murphy's and Plunkett's aren't new -- and they aren't carriers.
 
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