Lexington Depression

Dragon1

Rear Admiral
Antimatter Guns weren't in Prophecy -- maybe it was a gameplay reason (well, it was),

Just curious LOAF, what was the gameplay issue?

Wing Commander II manual entry for the AMG...

Anti-Matter Gun. These huge weapons are found only on capital ships for use against other capital ships. Like torpe- does, they ignore shields, directly attacking armor. Anti-matter guns are slow to aim and cannot readily be used against fighter-sized craft, but a single shot can vaporize a fighter. Be sure to stay out of the fire lanes between two warring cruisers!

Now, the WC III manual's entry...

The anti-matter gun is a more powerful version of the particle cannon and comprises the secondary armament of most friendly and enemy capital ships. This weapon can punch through the heaviest shields, and it delivers four times as much damage as the most powerful gun on any fighter. Capital ships rely on the anti-matter gun to defend against corvettes, heavy fighters and bombers that are attacking. Although not effective in atmospheric conditions, the small nuclear explosion and resulting heat and radiation from one shot are often enough to down a fighter in space.

I wasn't trying to specifically say that the AMG was gone in Prophecy, I was attempting to figure out why the 2664 AMG is described as a huge battery to be used primarily against other capships, "...cannot be readily used against fighter-sized craft....". While the 2669 AMG is called a "secondary armament" and is obviously readily used against enemy fighters when its main listed targets are "corvettes, heavy fighters and bombers that are attacking".

I never wanted to create a continuity out of the gun, just *speculate* with the community on why the two entries for the same weapon are so drastically different. Further, if the AMG (which is of course the heaviest ship based energy weapons seen in WC II- WC IV omitting the PT-cannon and Behemoth beam) is listed as a 'secondary armament', would it be such a stretch to postulate that there must have been a 'primary armament' in the 2669 period?

Perhaps the heavy ion cannons on the Midway that existed from the fiction, but not modled into the game itself constituted a 'primary armament'. Again though, I am not trying to set anything in stone, just drum up interesting conversation with intelligent people.
 

RATM

Spaceman
You know.. A gun uses bullets.

AMG fires well.. anti-mater i would guess...

Guns evolved into automatic weapons

AMG evolved to be able to hit fighters.

what`s the big deal?
 

Dragon1

Rear Admiral
RATM said:
You know.. A gun uses bullets.

AMG fires well.. anti-mater i would guess...

Guns evolved into automatic weapons

AMG evolved to be able to hit fighters.

what`s the big deal?

No big deal really, just having fun.
 

ChrisReid

Super Soaker Collector / Administrator
Dragon1 said:
Perhaps the heavy ion cannons on the Midway that existed from the fiction, but not modled into the game itself constituted a 'primary armament'. Again though, I am not trying to set anything in stone, just drum up interesting conversation with intelligent people.

It's just kind of a dodgy thing to speculate about. There's lots of topics where you can dig for historical bits and make interesting connections, but you're at least taking this the wrong way. If you want to know what other weapons are out there, that's great, and it requires no mention of the AMG at all. The focus of this conversation just seems kind of odd.
 

Dragon1

Rear Admiral
Backing up the conversation just a bit; would anyone know if a WCIV editing program exists? Just looking for ways to alter ship specs or make user missions.
 

Death

gh0d (Administrator)
Dragon1 said:
Backing up the conversation just a bit; would anyone know if a WCIV editing program exists? Just looking for ways to alter ship specs or make user missions.

yup
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Dragon1

Rear Admiral
I just installed the Arena editor for Wing Commander IV, but I got the following error message

- Missing Device Driver (EGAVGA.BGI)

When I downloaded a copy of this specific file and pasted it in the WC4 directory, I got

- Invalid Device Driver (EGAVGA.BGI)

Anybody come across this before?
 

Dragon1

Rear Admiral
Hi guys,

I have just a few quick questions, but I don't think it warrants starting up a whole new discussion thread. I couldn't find anything conclusive with the 'search' button, and with LOAF's updated ship doc, things may have changed a little.

How many Carriers does Confed have before the signing of the Armistice of 2668 and how many just after the Battle of Earth? How many are confirmed to be of the 'new heavy carrier class' and which are still in service as of 2673?

P.S. Happy b-day CIC, I was out of town most of last week, but it sounds like everyone had a great time.
 

Death

gh0d (Administrator)
The Intrepid mounts laser turrets, and retains its torpedo loadout from when it was originally a destroyer (mentioned by Blair as a mental aside, in the novelization). It doesn't have any AMGs mounted.
 

Crazy J

Spaceman
My thoughts on the AMG thingy

My theory is a simple one. We know that both sides had a carrier vs. battleship argument going before the war, and that the prevalent weapon was the battleship, and from what it sounds like, they had those plasma/particle weapons. Now, think about this.

This is a massive war. Ships are lost every day and need to be replaced quickly. Fighters are cheap and easy to build. Building a flying, armored, and lightly armed flight deck isn't that horribly difficult, either, if you build to Confed's style (every carrier is the same - one long deck with storage compartments on the side). In comparison to a battleship, it wouldn't be that expensive, either.

Now, those battleships are big, and because they're all about carrying guns, they're a somewhat more complicated and expensive design than, say, the Concordia-class. When you think that a pair of torpedoes delivered by a vastly more inexpensive bomber will down most ships out there, it becomes nothing more than a glass cannon - yeah, it'll beat down the carrier, by bombers and fighters can strike before it gets within a light-minute of the carrier.

But, however, there are ways of defeating torpedoes. So, we still need a gun that can be used against enemy cruisers. Those big plasma turrets suck energy away from the shields and other systems, and are more than ridiculously expensive in comparison to some of the other options out there. As the natural evolution of weapons goes its course, we develop the AMG - it can do good damage, and penetrate shields. This explains why Confederation and Jutland-class carriers carried them - in the Confederation's case, to rip enemy ships to little pieces. In the Jutland's case, more or less as defensive measure than an offensive one. Ya know, just in case she gets caught with her pants down.

As the natural evolution of shields goes its course, both sides develop shields that are much more resitant to AMG's. So, as the AMG itself was refined, it could now fire faster and track faster targets. So, in addition to being able to still at least bruise destroyers and cruisers, it now becomes the premier anti-fighter weapon due to its strength (lasers would still be kept handy just because some fighters can dodge AMG fire).

After the war, with recovering economies and fully restored fleets, it now becomes viable to build massive cruisers to help supplement their carrier fleets. Previous cruisers were kept smaller to make them quicker to build, but now we can once again build ones as large as or bigger than most fleet carriers to go convoy hunting, or to act as flagship for a fleet that only has light or escort carriers for fighters. The Plasma and/or Particle turrets now make a come-back, as rather than trying to penetrate shields like the original AMG's, they just plow through them with brute force and inflict damage that would make torpedo insane with envy.

There, a simple theory one why Plamsa's disappeared during the Kilrathi war and came back later. And only brought up because I read the prior argument and I couldn't fall asleep last night due to large amounts of caffiene. It seems logical; I mean, a ship that's 1,200 meters long surely couldn't be built in one month's time, so you'd need something cheaper and quicker to fill out the ranks.
 

Dundradal

Frog Blast the Vent Core!
Crazy J said:
My theory is a simple one. We know that both sides had a carrier vs. battleship argument going before the war, and that the prevalent weapon was the battleship, and from what it sounds like, they had those plasma/particle weapons. Now, think about this.

It wasn't so much the battlewagon as it was ships of the line with heavy weapons and shields that could slug it out with others. AS mentions battlewagons as having heavy plasma weapons (during Turner's counterattack there's a great scene when the Yorkshire and North Carolina are duking it out with kat capships).

This is a massive war. Ships are lost every day and need to be replaced quickly. Fighters are cheap and easy to build. Building a flying, armored, and lightly armed flight deck isn't that horribly difficult, either, if you build to Confed's style (every carrier is the same - one long deck with storage compartments on the side). In comparison to a battleship, it wouldn't be that expensive, either.

It takes 5 years to build a fleet carrier from the ground up. Confed actually has quite a few carrier designs that are quite different from each other. Sure, they all have long flight decks, they need them to launch and recover fighters. We aren't given an amount of time for battlewagon construciton but I would guess it would be slightly longer than a carrier.

Now, those battleships are big, and because they're all about carrying guns, they're a somewhat more complicated and expensive design than, say, the Concordia-class. When you think that a pair of torpedoes delivered by a vastly more inexpensive bomber will down most ships out there, it becomes nothing more than a glass cannon - yeah, it'll beat down the carrier, by bombers and fighters can strike before it gets within a light-minute of the carrier.

Thing your forgetting is that the fighters have to close within range of the battlewagon and survive long enough to launch their payloads. Ships are armed with multiple ways of downing torps from mass driver guns and anti-torp missiles. It requires a lot of fighters to down a heavy capship (not withstanding our own amazing flying skills in the games). I'm sure battlewagons can take a few hits before being crippled, but they are bristling with turrets that could tear a squadron to shreds when it closed to firing distance.

But, however, there are ways of defeating torpedoes. So, we still need a gun that can be used against enemy cruisers. Those big plasma turrets suck energy away from the shields and other systems, and are more than ridiculously expensive in comparison to some of the other options out there. As the natural evolution of weapons goes its course, we develop the AMG - it can do good damage, and penetrate shields. This explains why Confederation and Jutland-class carriers carried them - in the Confederation's case, to rip enemy ships to little pieces. In the Jutland's case, more or less as defensive measure than an offensive one. Ya know, just in case she gets caught with her pants down.

I'm not sure we are giving a date for the AMG's entry into service, but I would wager it was developed pre-war. The Confederation class is an interesting breed. It's one of the few carriers we see go toe to toe with other heavy capships and come out on top.

The Jutland class, well we have very limited info on it. I see the reason more because Jutlands are strike carriers. They are more likely to be committed without a lot of escorts as they can to a degree defend themselves from smaller capships' attacks.

As the natural evolution of shields goes its course, both sides develop shields that are much more resitant to AMG's. So, as the AMG itself was refined, it could now fire faster and track faster targets. So, in addition to being able to still at least bruise destroyers and cruisers, it now becomes the premier anti-fighter weapon due to its strength (lasers would still be kept handy just because some fighters can dodge AMG fire).

Where did you get this from? AMGs always ignore shields and go straight for the hull. In wc3 AMG shots are still slower than others and still do a lot of damage when you run into one. Most ships in wc3 only mount a few AMGs, anti-fighter weapons are more likely to be faster moving and refiring lasers and tachyon turrets, just think how deadly that one tachyon turret on corvettes are. WCP/SO sees more lasers/ion/tachyon turrets because of the reasons stated above.

After the war, with recovering economies and fully restored fleets, it now becomes viable to build massive cruisers to help supplement their carrier fleets. Previous cruisers were kept smaller to make them quicker to build, but now we can once again build ones as large as or bigger than most fleet carriers to go convoy hunting, or to act as flagship for a fleet that only has light or escort carriers for fighters. The Plasma and/or Particle turrets now make a come-back, as rather than trying to penetrate shields like the original AMG's, they just plow through them with brute force and inflict damage that would make torpedo insane with envy.

Do you consider the Waterloo class to be small? And you realize the war is over right? Confed slashed the military spending after the treaty and very few new ships were being constructed. You have to remember that the Lunar shipyards were totally destroyed during BoT. Granted some of the other yards escaped damage, but I don't think they started cranking out cruisers postwar. If anything they probably built ships that would better aid recovery and rebuilding.

I don't think Plasma turrets went anywhere, we simply didn't see them on ships we were around. The front lines were HUGE, so we couldn't possibly see every type of ship serving on the lines. Just because we don't see it, doesn't mean it doesnt' exist.

There, a simple theory one why Plamsa's disappeared during the Kilrathi war and came back later. And only brought up because I read the prior argument and I couldn't fall asleep last night due to large amounts of caffiene. It seems logical; I mean, a ship that's 1,200 meters long surely couldn't be built in one month's time, so you'd need something cheaper and quicker to fill out the ranks.

5 years for a carrier and 10 years to build a shipyard and train the personnel to run it. Again, just because we don't see it, doesn't mean it's not there.
 

Edfilho

Cry some more!
Back to topic:
I always Leeched the Lex. At least half (probably more) of her crew was composed of nice, honest Confed personnel (the rest being the Evil, Evil Black Lance forces).

I could never just blow it up.
 

Dragon1

Rear Admiral
Where did you get this from? AMGs always ignore shields and go straight for the hull. In wc3 AMG shots are still slower than others and still do a lot of damage when you run into one. Most ships in wc3 only mount a few AMGs, anti-fighter weapons are more likely to be faster moving and refiring lasers and tachyon turrets, just think how deadly that one tachyon turret on corvettes are. WCP/SO sees more lasers/ion/tachyon turrets because of the reasons stated above.

AMGs in WC3 do not ignore shields, they bash them (as per the Victory Streak entry). We do see the gun functioning more as a defensive battery in this game than in WC2. Even the placement of the Fralthi II's AMGs surround the center mass of the ship. This is an ideally suited position for defending against small strike craft like corvettes or bombers that can quickly switch attacking angles. Whereas the Ajax (which was most likely an older design) mounted its batteries on the centerline axis. This allowed her to bring more of her batteries to bear on a single objective, thus giving her a distinct advantage in ship-to-ship battles.

I'm not sure we are giving a date for the AMG's entry into service, but I would wager it was developed pre-war.

Kilrathi AMGs are definitely pre-war. I believe that Confed AMGs were a development of the early war era. We know that AMGs are a 'step up' of particle cannon technology, and that the earliest reference (that I can remember) to Confed particle cannons comes from a captured Kilrathi model in 2639.
 

LeHah

212 Squadron - "The Old Man's Eyes And Ears"
Edfilho said:
I could never just blow it up.

Sorry, but Naismith just had to go. (Replaying the game, I leeched the Lex, but only to see the other cutscene)
 

Delance

Victory, you say?
LeHah said:
Sorry, but Naismith just had to go. (Replaying the game, I leeched the Lex, but only to see the other cutscene)

I agree, Naismith blowing up is one of the very best vid-coms on WC history.
 

Delance

Victory, you say?
I'm not sure I recall that one. Wilford thanking the remaining pilots for their bravery just before leaving them stranded was another good one from Prophecy.
 

Edfilho

Cry some more!
LeHah said:
Sorry, but Naismith just had to go. (Replaying the game, I leeched the Lex, but only to see the other cutscene)

That's true... probably the only reason for torping the Lex.
Now I'll have to load my savegame and blow it up just to see hum dying again.
:D
 
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