Jazz vs. Seether

frostytheplebe

Seventh Part of the Seal
Two of Blair's biggest HUMAN nemeses going at it. Both proven pilots, both arrogant, unquestionably overconfident, brutal, and both had the skill to back it up.

Who would win out of the two? Choose you're own scenario... for me, I'd put them both in what appears to be their fighter of choice; Seether in his Dragon and Jazz in the stolen Morningstar.

My Call: In terms of sheer skill, jazz every time! Seether was a great pilot, but his flying seemed too... mechanical, too engineered and artificial. There was something to be said for old fashioned battle hardened skill.
 
Isn't there a rule prohibiting things like this?

http://www.crius.net/zone/faq.php?&faq=cicfaq#faq_cic_rules said:
3) Due to the history of "(something) vs (something)" threads stirring up flames and arguments, especially if they involve other sci-fi universes, such threads are specifically prohibited.

Oh, there it is.
 
  1. Please don't back-seat moderate. If you see something that you think is breaking the rules (or even may be a bit shady), use the report button (the exclamation point in a box) to notify the mods/admins. Rule #1, I believe.
  2. Versus threads entirely within the WC canon are generally given more leeway, within reason. I personally don't see why this one is, at present, a problem. If it becomes a problem, it will be a short-lived one.
 
Scenario #1: Freestyle battle
My verdict: Jazz is a two-dimensional cartoon character endowed with some great lines. Seether is a two-dimensional villain played by a real actor. Jazz wins.

Scenario #2: Jazz's pistol vs Seether's knife
My verdict: Jazz lost to l'il unarmed Angel, while Seether made a lasting impression on Captain Paulsen's neck (and almost done so on maybe one or two others). So Seether wins.
 
Scenario #2: Jazz's pistol vs Seether's knife
My verdict: Jazz lost to l'il unarmed Angel, while Seether made a lasting impression on Captain Paulsen's neck (and almost done so on maybe one or two others). So Seether wins.

I'll give you this one. Genetic enhancements would make him more apt to deal with hand to hand combat, but in terms of the cockpit, there is no real comparison.


I just thought of something else. While we know very little about Seether's actions before WC4, we do hear hawk talk about "When he first signed on with Confed..."
there was this rookie pilot on his boat. Wasn't his first assignment on the Claw? Or was that conjecture? If it wasn't, does that mean Seether flew off the Claw briefly?
 
Seether is cool in a very 1990s sense: leather jacket, knife, bad evil laugh. Like Adrian Pasdar with less acting talent.

Jazz is just Jazz and Jazz is pretty damn cool. I'll stick with him.
 
The Dragon could totally take the Morningstar. Both are very good wingmen in the game.

Seether had a hilarious comm: "Damage? You must be joking".

If you tried to kill Jazz, he would be the only wingmen not to call you the traitor, therefore, he was the traitor.

But I'm not sure who would win. Can anyone put the two AIs on the same engine and let them have it?
 
I always had a much easier time gunning down Jazz than I did Seether, which seems to go against the experience of most of our regulars. I could see Seether winning easily, as such.
 
If you tried to kill Jazz, he would be the only wingmen not to call you the traitor, therefore, he was the traitor.

Now what was it Jazz used to say if you turned traitor on him?

Stingray used to come out with: "Holy shit! You're the traitor!"
 
Angel was REALLY fun to blast. "Mon dieu! You are the traitor!"

Even Shadow would call you one, but not THE traitor: "You're a traitor!" or something similar.
 
Now I haven't played WC4 in a long time so bear with me...
What would Seether the wingman say if you try to shoot him? :)
 
When Seether's in a Longbow, he's invincible. In the Dragon, on the other hand, I thought he was a pretty easy kill. Assuming that you could match the two AI's in this thread's named ships, Seether would still win because I've noticed the AI isn't well programmed to deal with cloaking enemies. AI pilots seem to just fly slowly in a straight line and assume there's no enemies in range when enemies cloak.

So in that sense, I'd say Seether would unquestionably win if those two ships and AI's were put up against each other.

The fictional question is more interesting to me. Of course it also becomes a "Space Battles" type conversation which I gather is not favored on these forums. Oh well, here's my 2 cents on the story side of things:

Based upon Hawk's recollection of him, I think Seether may have been a better pilot. Lance Casey also flew as a newbie with Hawk and didn't earn that kind of respect from him. On the other hand, Hawk was bloodthirsty so that aspect of Seether may have accounted for that.

Jazz has the musical talent and the illogical madness that can sometimes be linked to genius. I see can see exceptional skill and polish from Seether, but I don't have the impression that he has an exceptional genius to him.

So with Seether in a Dragon and Jazz in a Morningstar; I'd go with Jazz judging by the story line.

Since their performance in the actual games is more objective and also would take priority in the Wing Commander Universe, Seether in a Dragon wins vs. Jazz in a Morningstar.
 
Now I haven't played WC4 in a long time so bear with me...
What would Seether the wingman say if you try to shoot him? :)

I believe he'd say "Are you trying to tell me something" the first time, and if you did it too much, he'd tell you something like "prepare to die" and then attack. Sadly, I don't have the English version of WC4, so I can't quote Seether directly.

EDIT : About Jazz : I believe he'd say "Hey! You're trying to kill me!".
 
I'm going to go with Jazz. Seether was just a GE asshole, whereas Jazz had fought through multiple campaigns with distinctions from both the Kilrathi and the Terran sides. Seether probably didn't have as much action exposure as most of his kills were unexpected by the victims.

Jazz would have been facing the enemy in combat many times over the course of the war. Jazz was also a genius and an ultra talented pilot. For all we know Tolwyn may have chosen to use Jazz's DNA as a candidate for the GE program during the 10 years when Blair was out of action in the security service, as Jazz was a favored pilot of Tolwyn's until he was unmasked.

Seether always annoyed me and really just seemed to be more of a bigshot. Jazz was always a more tragic genius driven mad by his brother's death.
 
Just recall that seether was GE'd with tissue samples of ace pilots, possible that these even included those of Jazz.

Also, facing off a morningstar against a dragon would be a tough call. it would end up being the man, not the machine, and they would need to know what they are facing.

If i were in the morningstar, i'd try to lure the dragon out of hiding, try to trade licks with it and try to sucker-punch him with the mace missile, espacily if he chose to engage the fission cannons. If i were in a dragon, i'd try to tail him, decloack and open up with everything i could fire at once. The morningstar would have had engine and shield upgrades, i would assume, so using tactics either one could kill the other in a single blow.
 
Didn't Blair and Maniac almost get killed when facing Seether in the WC4 novel? Story-wise, Seether looks much scarier than Jazz, IMO.

Gameplay-wise... Well, they're both pretty terrible. Jazz never gets a chance to hit you once you're used to his flying style, and one missile can be enough to take down Seether (although I suppose Seether should be given some credit for being nearly impossible to hit with guns).
 
I used to think that Seether as a Wingman was invincible, but having just looked at the WC4 script, just found the following Seether Radio responses:

Seether Ejecting -- Not possible.

Seether No damage
"Damage? You must be joking."

Seether Some damage
"A few chance hits. Nothing worth mentioning."

Half damage - 50%
"Random damage. Nothing I can't handle."

Much damage - 75%
"My craft is nearly totalled. But it's not the machine -- it's the man."

Now can anybody confirm that they've heard any of these radio calls, I was never able to get anything other than "Damage? You must be joking..."

Also, the Seether Traitor call, is:

"Trying to get my attention, Colonel?"

Followed by:

"Don't cross me, Colonel. You'll regret it..."

and finally:


"Time to die, Colonel."
 
I used to think that Seether as a Wingman was invincible, but having just looked at the WC4 script, just found the following Seether Radio responses:

Now can anybody confirm that they've heard any of these radio calls, I was never able to get anything other than "Damage? You must be joking..."

I'm pretty sure he's invincible, unless there's a mission other than the Longbow one where he can take damage. I remember the Longbow mission seemed impossible to beat on nightmare, so I started retreating from the action and just left Seether in there to handle everything. He ended up destroying all the enemies and I'm pretty sure he took a beating. Even after that his response was still "Damage? You must be joking..."
 
I never liked the Seether character. I always looked forward to kicking his teeth in.

Jazz, on the other hand, I liked from time to time. I really did feel betrayed (same with Hobbes) when he turned. Jazz just seemed more evil to me.

So, in an "evil-off" Jazz wins.

In the Dragon + Seether vs. Morningstar + Jazz fight, the Dragon is such a better fighter and plus, it has a cloaking device. My money would be on the Dragon + Seether combo, but Jazz would still put up a decent fight.
 
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