Is Killing Kilrathi and Nephilim more justified than Humans?

So then what kind of justification can you give for Wing Commander IV and Prophecy? There was no real war, but there were two sides. You seem to have emphasized the fact that it is important for you to be in a war, but do you consider armed combat war if no war is declared? During Prophecy we have no clue who the "Nephilim" really are, all we know is that they are out to destroy us, but would you call that "war?" And what about the other capships you destroy in the Price of Freedom? Their crews were mostly innocent too, as well as the afformentioned Speradon raids. So would you really call these incidents war? An act of war, yes, but actual war? I would say not.

The problem is a lot of the pilots who shot down the Kilrathi in Prophecy would have considered the Kilrathi to be foes, and would also consider them to be in combat especially if they have some sort of harbored hate towards them, any time they are in the presence of the enemy and in combat, or at least they believe they should initiate the combat.
 
Bandit LOAF said:
Just the opposite - the Prophecy's ICIS manual explains what this race (the Mantu) are and why they aren't the Nephilim.

Having just read Fleet Action last week, could the bugs be the race that the Mantu pulled back to fight during their war with the Kilrathi?
 
Anxiety said:
So then what kind of justification can you give for Wing Commander IV and Prophecy? There was no real war, but there were two sides. You seem to have emphasized the fact that it is important for you to be in a war, but do you consider armed combat war if no war is declared? During Prophecy we have no clue who the "Nephilim" really are, all we know is that they are out to destroy us, but would you call that "war?" And what about the other capships you destroy in the Price of Freedom? Their crews were mostly innocent too, as well as the afformentioned Speradon raids. So would you really call these incidents war? An act of war, yes, but actual war? I would say not.

The problem is a lot of the pilots who shot down the Kilrathi in Prophecy would have considered the Kilrathi to be foes, and would also consider them to be in combat especially if they have some sort of harbored hate towards them, any time they are in the presence of the enemy and in combat, or at least they believe they should initiate the combat.

Please, just think a bit harder... Swap "war" for "conflict", then. Obviously, morality is not established based on treaties.

In WC4 there was a state of conflict. Actually, it kinda proves my point...

Tolwyn wants to start a war so that we get stronger to face the future threat. He can't just order the fleet to shoot random people, because most people in confed would believe that to be wrong (ooooh). So he fabricates terrorist and piratic acts and blame them on the newly born UBW. Confed is forced to respond to these acts and sends the Lex to find out what is happening. the Pilots in the Lex and then later in the Intrepid get into many dogfights, strikes etc. Some of this actions are NOT right, like the attack in Sperandon. But Blair was trying to save Confed and the human race from an unknown aggressor.

WCP is even simpler: The bugs attack us, we defend ourselves. We do not spend hours shooting at nephilim in WCP because we hate them, we do tht because they are attacking us.

Melek's shuttle in WC4 and the friendly Kilrathin in WCP are NOT our enemies. They mean no harm to us. Attacking them just because you hate every Kilrathi (even if you have a "reson" like Hawk) is totally and completelly wrong. There is no grey are here. They are not in any conceivable way our foes. They were our enemies, and they still harbor ill feelings towards us. But they are allies. They were there to help us.

How many Japanese airplanes were attacked by the USAF AFTER the WW2? would an american pilot sent to patrol some area in the pacific be right in destroying japanese airliners? It is precisely the same situation.
 
Hmmmm....the cap ship question. If you're doing the right thing, but a bunch of innocent people following orders get in your way, what should you do?

Wow...I guess I could see the moral dilemma there. Ideally, killing innocent people should be avoided at all costs. But the Lexington is kind of like Kilrah on a smaller scale from my point of view. Given the situation and the timing, was there really a choice?

Blair, Maniac, Eisen, Catscratch, and whoever else defected were essentially traitors. They left and joined the other side. And it was outside most peoples' knowledge that there was a third party instigating the whole clash between the two sides. So there you are, forced to defect with your friends and comrades to learn more about what's going on...and then you're not even given the chance to explain yourself - you're fired on without necessarily any provocation and you're left with a choice - to fire back and kill innocent people, or to be killed yourself, erasing from anyone's knowledge all you learned and knew up to that point, and eventually resulting in a full-scale war where people following orders on both sides are killed far more regularly. Kilrah was the same kind of deal only on a much larger scale.

It's a difficult thing to weigh...but ultimately, it boils down to Spock's philosophy of the good of the many outweighing the good of the few or the one. In my mind, that's a recurring theme throughout all of Wing Commander...they show you all these characters that you start to like or love, and then they're killed off making the ultimate sacrifice for the greater good. And then there are the people doing nothing that you never hear about, but still suffer their own tragedies because of your decisions.

There's basically a bunch of good and bad guys on both sides in conflicts...and then just a lot of people who don't know any better trapped somewhere in-between the two extremes.

Unfortunately in war (for a reference for this post and all my posts, let's consider any situation where at least two warriors with the ability to defend themselves are thrown into a conflict instigated by one physically attacking the other "war"), there's always casualties and collateral damage caught in-between the two clashing sides. True victory in war comes through minimizing those casualties and collateral damage on both sides. Unfortunately in the case of WC3 and WC4 especially, you wound up killing a lot of people who didn't deserve to die...they were simply killed for being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

And granted, there's no honor in killing the innocent people (most of us didn't destroy Kilrah because we were going after a litter of 5-day-old cubs)...it should be avoided at all costs, I'm sure we'll all agree. But it needs to be seen from the point of view of the individual situation too. If Blair didn't destroy Kilrah, who's to say ten or a hundred time that planet's population wouldn't have been killed if he didn't drop the Temblor Bomb? In the case of the destruction of the Lexington...who's to say if she was successful in stopping Blair just how many more people would have paid the price when the war between the Border Worlds and Confed was declared by the Assembly?

But that's all speculation too, isn't it? Who's to say the Assembly would have gone along with a war between the UBW and Confed even if Blair hadn't succeeded? Who's to say the war wouldn't have ended if Kilrah wasn't destroyed?

There's another light to see things in, though...if the positions were switched...if it was you onboard the Lexington and the individual members of her crew defecting and flying against you and following orders, would they have thought twice? If the Kilrathi had a superweapon or a doomsday bomb pointed at Earth, would they have thought twice? And considering what we know about these individuals (the Kilrathi Emperor, Paulsen, Seether, etc.)...would the universe be better off and safer without you and instead under their watch?

In war, lots of people are killed...many perhaps for all the wrong reasons at the time. But in some of those cases, one has to wonder if they asked the right questions and made the right decisions leading up to that disaster. If most of the crew of the Lexington were innocent and they were ordered to engage defecting ships, and word had spread that their previous captain, the Hero of the Confederation, and some rather distinguished pilots were among the defectors (even if that wasn't explained to you, wouldn't you be able to figure out who was unaccounted for just by looking around?)...wouldn't you SERIOUSLY question the order to shoot them down? Hell, there should be a mutiny just to buy the time needed to figure out if it made sense or not. Of course doing so would likely make you a traitor as well...but still, shouldn't you at least try?

Blair was sent out to bring back Eisen and Marshall (at least in the game)...but before he opened fire, he thought it through, knew it was the wrong decision, and went along with them. He only later destroyed the Lexington when she gave them no other choice.

It's one of those tough decisions that's hard to make, but I still think you'd have to make anyway. Those people onboard the Lexington would probably be dead no matter what choice they made, and you're stuck having your life and the knowledge you possess that could prevent a war in one hand and the lives of your former crewmates and their ignorance in the other...it's a tough call to make, but if I was such an ignorant crewmate, I'd forgive any of you guys for offing me for the greater good.

There, how's that? :)


As for Prophecy...I still don't see it as that unique a situation - at least from the point-of-view as a fighter pilot on the frontlines. The Nephilim don't give you any explanation, nor do they demonstrate the desire to do so. All you know is when you encounter them, they fire at you just like the Kilrathi in WC1-3. It's not really even a moral question at that point. It's a simple matter of self-defense. For whatever reason, they seek you and your teammates' destruction, and so you're forced to counter-attack with maximum force. Until evidence arises to support the fact that the Nephilim aren't all like-minded, you're forced to make judgement calls at the spur of the moment. There's no crewmates you served with on those enemy ships...and you can't guarantee there's even one Nephilim onboard who has his/her reservations about firing on you. It's an easy enemy to fight because you don't feel a close attachment to any of them. One part of WC3 was difficult because of Hobbes' defection. Of all the Kilrathi we ever fought, have we ever felt worse flying against any other as much as Hobbes? For me, it was just sickening because he was my buddy for half the game and WC2 before that...

And now that I think about it on a grand scale, this relates strongly to the Lexington and Kilrah situation on a personal level. At least within the scope of the game storylines, Blair doesn't feel a very close attachment to anyone on the Lexington or on Kilrah. Those he feels closest to are with him against both...and their lives depend on his ability to pull that trigger.

In only a few cases...Spirit's last mission in WC2 primarily...do we feel a level of helplessness, not really sure how we ourselves would act in that situation or as a caring wingman. Had her Sabre not been sabotaged, I wonder how she would have dealt with her love being on the station....do you think she still would've flown into it, destroying it and her love with it? Maybe so...

Now to make things more interesting...what if Angel was onboard the Lexington or alive on Kilrah during that last mission...I think that would've posed an even greater moral dilemma...but even then, I think you have a responsibility to the greater good, don't you? And I think a person who loves you just for being you would understand that...I think Angel would've understood that given these situations. It's just something that has to be done that you can't trust anyone else to pull off.

Of course, this is probably a weaker argument than above...makes it seem like you should care only about yourself, your ideals, and the people you're closest to and to hell with the rest. But in some sad way, isn't that human nature? Don't we only tend to care most about those we feel the closest connections to? Isn't our duty and responsibility to them above all others on a personal level? And as such, don't we feel it to be our duty and responsibility to protect them no matter the consequences?

That's the way I've always pictured Wing Commander and that's why damn few games have ever come close because in other games, you don't care anywhere near as much about the characters themselves. Wing Commander wasn't just a combat simulator where you're just killing needlessly until the end credits...it's a story about friendship, camaraderie, love, victory, tragedy, death, and life. And it's also about tremendous loss, a feeling of helplessness, and being against the ropes time and time again...only to stand your ground just a breath longer because of hope - a hope that often times turns the tide at that crucial moment when everything else around you goes down in flames. Wing Commander wasn't about just blindly following orders...it was about taking a stand for what you believe, who you trust, who you fight for, and who you'd be willing to die for.

And I think that's at least part of the reason most of us can still feel like we made the right decision at the end of the day after destroying Kilrah, destroying the Lexington, killing all those humans, Kilrathi, and Nephilim...we knew what we did was right because there was still a happy ending, many of our friends and comrades were still with us, and we continued watching the stars as we always have, waiting for the next threat to challenge us and force us to rise to the occasion once more. In a way, that's kind of ironic...that doesn't seem to apply only to the characters in Wing Commander, but to members of its fan community as well all these years later. :)

But the reason you can't regret these decisions is because of where all these events eventually lead you. The characters we feel closest to in Wing Commander are guardians of peace who are frequently thrown into situations where they don't get to enjoy a lasting peace. It is the ultimate duty and responsibility to safeguard civilization as the characters in Wing Commander do..."the price of freedom is eternal vigilance" holds a lot of unfortunate truth to it. But at least for me, therein lies the justification for all the roads you take...for if in the end, you are still the person you choose to be on your own and you still maintain that vigil, they were the right choices, and you could never have trusted anyone else to make them and to take your place in that vigil - not the crew of the Lexington, not the children of Kilrah, no one. That's the power of the solitary position - you can only ever trust yourself to make what you would call the "right" decisions. That's why the destruction of Kilrah and the Lexington were unfortunate, but still nevertheless "right"....because you're still alive and still held in a positive enough light in every race's eyes. The fact that not every Kilrathi wants you dead means the destruction of Kilrah was not a big mistake. The fact that not every human wants you dead means the destruction of the Lexington was not the most evil act. It only means you did what had to be done to ensure the safety and survival of everyone...and the fact that Confed, UBW, and the Kilrathi are still around means you must've done something right, in my mind...

- FireFalcon ~};^


[edit] To Edfilho: Good points in your reply...I suffered a little bit of a disconnect regarding the whole shooting down of Japanese airlines, though. I mean, we didn't do that doing WW2 (on purpose, at least), did we? A better analogy might be that we're not still nuking Japan.

[edit] To McGraff: Interesting comment on the Mantu. I was under the impression that there was a mutual intermission in the war between the Mantu and the Kilrathi. Were the Mantu fighting enemies elsewhere at the time? Also, I'm almost inclined to wager a guess that if this is the case, the Mantu weren't fighting the Nephilim. If it's true the Mantu and the Kilrathi were fairly evenly matched technology-wise, I imagine the Mantu would've been little or no match against the Nephilim (a race the Confederation can barely repel with fighters that seem like a HUGE step up from what the Kilrathi seem to be stuck with), though you could argue this. But in addition, the Nephilim seem to be more the race that appears without prior notice, do what they want, then leave without a trail. I would wonder if that would mean the threat would exist for such a small fraction of time that the Mantu wouldn't necessarily even have the chance to recognize the fact that they're at war (didn't Prophecy only last like a couple of weeks, though I suppose events lasted beyond this period of time) - either the Nephilim would have already done their poking around and be gone, or would have arrived in full force and eradicated the Mantu. But as with nearly everything here...the only man who could perhaps most definitively tell you if it's indeed possible would be LOAF. :)
 
To Edfilho: Good points in your reply...I suffered a little bit of a disconnect regarding the whole shooting down of Japanese airlines, though. I mean, we didn't do that doing WW2 (on purpose, at least), did we? A better analogy might be that we're not still nuking Japan.
The example is good if you think that the people here said that they would always shoot any kilrathi ship. Including Melek's Shuttle, which is NOT a military target. Considering that in certain aspects the Kilrathi are the Furry Space Japanese Empire, and Confed is the Nice Future USA, the comparison is usefull :) I mean, the allies sought to rebuild and help their former enemies, why should we just kill kilrathi people out of stupid, blind hatred? It is simply wrong.

Maybe the ww2 comparisons are stupid. but the underlying principles apply. There is no moral justification to shooting people just because you hate them.
 
Having just read Fleet Action last week, could the bugs be the race that the Mantu pulled back to fight during their war with the Kilrathi?

From the ICIS Manual: Once the propaganda and legend are stripped away, the Mantu seem to have been an insular, somewhat paranoid race of explorers and prospectors who reacted with extreme prejudice to Kilrathi aggression. Significantly, there is no suggestion in the historical record that the initial aggressor in the conflict was the Mantu. Probably the Kilrathi assaulted non-military Mantu vessels in much the same way that they did at the beginning of the Terran conflict.

The Kilrathi fear of the Mantu’s return is well documented, but may well be merely a paranoid, atavistic response to an enemy left alive and at large (another well-documented trait of Kilrathi psychology). There is nothing substantial in the historical record to suggest any explicit promises of vengeance from the Mantu civilisation against the Kilrathi.


The Mantu probably didn't go away at all -- the Kilrathi just failed to invade their space.

Edit: Though the 'warlike empire' referenced as being on the other side of the galaxy in Action Stations is probably supposed to be the Nephilim.
 
Firefalcon, two minor nits, focused on WC4

The Lexington wasn't destroyed, its ability to launch fighters was removed by Blair's detonating a torpedo in front of the launch bays, thus screwing up the launching equipment so the Lex couldn't launch fighters. (The game gives the option of leeching the Lex, if you defect the first time it's offered, with a slightly different FMV for the following scene. Since there's a choice of which way to go [disable or destroy the Lexington], the novelization's choice of disabling the Lex is official.)

Also, Blair wasn't the Lex's captain, but its Wing Commander. Still high in the chain of command, yes, but not the Captain. At the time of the defection, CAPT Hugh Paulson was the Lexington's captain.
 
Edfilho said:
The example is good if you think that the people here said that they would always shoot any kilrathi ship. Including Melek's Shuttle, which is NOT a military target. Considering that in certain aspects the Kilrathi are the Furry Space Japanese Empire, and Confed is the Nice Future USA, the comparison is usefull :) I mean, the allies sought to rebuild and help their former enemies, why should we just kill kilrathi people out of stupid, blind hatred? It is simply wrong.

Maybe the ww2 comparisons are stupid. but the underlying principles apply. There is no moral justification to shooting people just because you hate them.

Nah, the WW2 comparisons are good, Edfilho. It's just that in Prophecy, you have a choice of siding with Hawk and destroying Kilrathi military units, not Kilrathi passenger liners. So saying that destroying them would be like our planes shooting down Japanese airliners following WW2 is a bit of a loose analogy because it's comparing a military entanglement snafu to killing innocent people (it might be better to say bombing Japanese military airports, shooting down Japanese fighters, etc. within the confines of the Prophecy comparison). But nevertheless, you made your point...and we're both on the same side of the argument. Your analogy definitely applies to people on the other side of the fence, though, who believe in the whole "kill them all" philosophy. So...yeah...just ignore whatever I said before for simplicity's sake. :)

Death said:
Firefalcon, two minor nits, focused on WC4

The Lexington wasn't destroyed, its ability to launch fighters was removed by Blair's detonating a torpedo in front of the launch bays, thus screwing up the launching equipment so the Lex couldn't launch fighters. (The game gives the option of leeching the Lex, if you defect the first time it's offered, with a slightly different FMV for the following scene. Since there's a choice of which way to go [disable or destroy the Lexington], the novelization's choice of disabling the Lex is official.)

Also, Blair wasn't the Lex's captain, but its Wing Commander. Still high in the chain of command, yes, but not the Captain. At the time of the defection, CAPT Hugh Paulson was the Lexington's captain.

Thanks, Death...I only played through WC4 once and I destroyed the Lexington (mostly because the copy of the game I got off eBay didn't come with a manual and so it doesn't really explain the whole concept of the leech gun...didn't figure that one out until later in the game when I HAD to use it and failed a mission multiple times before realizing I even HAD it)...so I guess I just never figured there were two ways for that fight to go and which was the "official" way.

That being the case, I guess it's important to note that Blair minimized casualties in the engagement by not destroying the whole cap ship, and that should be seen as noteworthy...

As for Paulson, I was aware that he was the Captain of the Lexington at this time. Sorry if I accidentally implied that Blair was...at one point, I said to flip-flop the characters so that Blair would've been aboard the Lexington and each individual member of her crew was playing for the other side, following orders, and would therefore likely destroy the Lexington in that situation. It's a hard concept to fathom, and my argument could be impossible to prove or disprove...but it was simply to flip-flop the characters to determine who is "right" and who is "wrong" by determining how other people would act in different circumstances. If I ever did say outright that Blair was Captain of the Lexington...I think I'd have to blame that screw-up on lack of sleep. About the only ship I'm aware that Blair himself commanded was the BWS Intrepid after Eisen left...anyone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

Anyway...just wanted to reply to everything so you guys don't start to think I'm losing my mind over here... :)

- FireFalcon ~};^
 
I think the moral of the story in this thread is basically thus - killing is all well and good in a video game.. but when you give yourself time to think about it... killing is still killing, and somewhere... our decencies tend to show.
 
FlashFire82 said:
I think the moral of the story in this thread is basically thus - killing is all well and good in a video game.. but when you give yourself time to think about it... killing is still killing, and somewhere... our decencies tend to show.
This really doesn't mean anything, you know.
 
I don't think there's necessarily any moral to the story here...I mean, there are reasons to go either way in the argument for fairly good reasons...that's why it's such a deep conversation, in my opinion. :) Of course, I naturally have my own opinion that I think is right (otherwise, why have it, right?), but I'm willing to concede that if you can justify it, there's likely a reason to swing the other way as well...

What started as one question, in my mind, has since turned into two:

(1) (the original) Is killing Kilrathi and Nephilim more justified than Humans? To which I personally would answer - no...it's not actually more justified in and of itself. To say it is more justified would be to either put humanity on a pedestal it doesn't necessarily deserve or to treat the Kilrathi and Nephilim as lesser life which the Wing Commander games' depth of both would seem to dismiss (they're every bit as complex as humanity if not, in some cases, moreso). So in and of itself, no...it's not more justified to value human life more than alien-kind. Where I think the line needs to be drawn is between combatants and civilians, as well as between hostiles and friendlies. In WC4 and Prophecy, the Kilrathi you come across are recognized to the powers-that-be as "friendlies," and so I think it would be wrong to fight them simply because they're part of a different species despite any prejudices you might have.

(2) (related to the end part I have for #1 above) If you have the power, where do you draw that line between who deserves to live and who deserves to die? The Kilrathi are defeated at the end of WC3...is it right to just mop up the rest of them afterwards? We get the idea through the games that Blair himself has conflicted feelings about the Kilrathi...and though by the end of WC3 (the game), he's more or less at wit's end and might at that point consider there to be nothing redeeming about ANY Kilrathi after Angel's murder and Hobbes' defection...but then he's captured by Melek. And rather than suffering vengeance at the hands of the Kilrathi, Melek on behalf of the Kilrathi Empire surrenders to him discretely, and allows him safe passage back to his comrades. I'm sorry, but how could you look at that action and think to yourself, "they're all just wild animals that need to be put down?"

I imagine after Prophecy, the history of the Wing Commander Universe will still have tons of conflict...between humans trying to steal power to Kilrathi trying to restore the glory of their great empire to perhaps more Nephilim incursions/invasions. So no race is full of saints just like no race is full of devils. Each has their good people and their bad ones (may vary depending on how you interpret the Nephilim, of course)...and I think that's why Wing Commander is so deep and something everybody here loves. It's not just about us against them and fighting them just because they're alien...it's more about us trying to figure out who our real friends and comrades are, and many times the main character winds up siding with those - both humans and aliens - that others would refer to as "enemies." Example: as much as everyone hates Maniac and half of the people on HIS side would love the chance to shoot him, I've always come to see Marshall and Blair as being best friends as much as they themselves might hate each other. When Blair's first abducted in Prophecy, it almost seems like someone burst Maniac's bubble...maybe part of it is him being the old guy on the flight line now, but I imagine it would also be a shocker for him to lose the guy he's been friends with and serving with for the better part of however many years...

Point is, there are humans Blair sides with that are unpopular as well as aliens (Hobbes, Melek, etc.)...so while it's uneasy at times, you get the feeling that it's not so much about it being an endless conflict with "us against them" with clear lines drawn based on looks alone, but more like an endless effort to make the right choices, even if that means backing up the under-dogs, which Blair and Casey seem to always do.

It's all about the shades of gray with every race, I imagine (perhaps even to an extent the Nephilim, though we haven't seen enough of them to be certain of this)...there are people that you will need to deal with. Some things will start to fall into place that will inevitably plop you on one side of the fence or the other...and you'll wind up killing bugs, cats, and apes alike along the way because of it.

Humans are no better than the Kilrathi or the Nephilim...we'd only like to think we are because we ourselves are human, but the fact remains...we're no better. So the question is...where do you draw that line?

If you're one of these types that says "kill them all," then I don't know how you could look at humanity and not be inclined to say the same thing. I think everyone has to be willing to concede that at least with humanity and Kilrathi...there's some redeeming qualities of both that make both important enough to keep around, don't you think? I mean, sure there's a lot of crap...but when you play through these games, trying to do all the right things...there's at least a few people right there with you trying to do the right things on different sides. And so, that's a bit of an encouraging thought, isn't it? Isn't that worth preserving in some way, shape, or form?

- FireFalcon ~};^
 
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