Iconic fighter?

[ELTEE]

what made the original torpedoes interesting? Was it just a warhead that was adept at penetrating armor and inflicting greater damage on a capital ship than some other weapon? I don't see why standard nukes weren't used against capital ships more often (unless that's what a capship missile is, and I'm just forgetting.)

Until the torpedo gained the recognition of being able to bypass phase shields, I'd still rather strike at a pre-phase shield capital ship with a squadron of heavy fighters over lumbering bombers...maybe it's just me though...

 

[McGruff]

If I remember right, Action Stations states that at the time, fighters weren't considered to be much of a threat to capital ships - which was why they were taken by surprise when waves of fighters attacked McAullife. Until the development of shield bypassing torpedoes by punk asshole slaves who deserved everything they got, both sides used massive battleships with heavy beam weapons to batter down the enemy's shields.

 

[Houkiboshi]

If I remember right, the Ranger class carries operated back then with small fighters performing just recon for the main elements of the fleet, fighters weren't considered important weapons... sort of an analogy of the military aviation in the 20th century on earth

 

[Death]

Yes, you are remembering right, Houkiboshi. Carriers, prior to the invention of shield-penetrating torpedoes, weren't considered a vital part of any capship engagement, and were viewed at the time as being suited only to air support for ground forces, in planetary engagements, and scouting units.

Also, it's trivially easy to find a real-world analog to just about everything WC that Forstchen wrote. I guess he loves to show off his history degree.

 

[ELTEE]

so why didn't we have any shield penetrating torpedoes available to us to use ingame in WC1? And why were fighters and carriers obviously so important by then?

 

[Bandit LOAF]

so why didn't we have any shield penetrating torpedoes available to us to use ingame in WC1? And why were fighters and carriers obviously so important by then?

I'm not sure whether or not you're kidding. The linear nature of time -- the same reason you aren't named 'Christopher Blair' in WC1. Wing Commander II, which invented the concept, was developed a year after Wing Commander I.

Also, we don't fly a bomber in Wing Commander I.

If I remember right, the Ranger class carries operated back then with small fighters performing just recon for the main elements of the fleet, fighters weren't considered important weapons... sort of an analogy of the military aviation in the 20th century on earth

Fighters and bombers were also used for planetary missions (bombing runs, etc.) and for anti-shipping objectives. There were more than one class of carrier, too -- the list includes Concordia-class carriers, Bengal-class strike carriers and the Coral Sea (a heavy carrier).

I don't see why standard nukes weren't used against capital ships more often (unless that's what a capship missile is, and I'm just forgetting.)

Possibly -- we don't know what kind of warhead a CapShip Missile has, but it's just a really really big explosive (that is to say, it could be nuclear, it could be antimatter... but it doesn't lock like a torpedo).

 

[ChrisReid]

Hmm, that seems strange to me. The longbow is for one purpose, and that is to place torpedos on target. WC1 takes place before the era of phase shielding and thus the need for specialized bombers like the Broadsword or the Longbow did not yet exist. I think attacking a pre phase shield capital ship in a Raptor would make more sense than in the sluggish Longbow.

If it wasn't made clear in the intervening posts, you need to understand that phase shielding has always been around within the context of Wing Commander. There are no "pre phase shield" capital ships. As weapon technology improves, newer torpedoes (as in WC2 or Prophecy) and guns (as in WC1 or WC3) are developed to most effectively combat the latest shielding.

Another major thing that you need to understand is that most fighters are not brand new the first time they're introduced in a game. Broadswords and Longbows were around long before WC2 and WC3.

Last but not least, the Longbow is not just a torpedo bomber. We see it used as a Search & Rescue craft as well.

 

[Houkiboshi]

If it wasn't made clear in the intervening posts, you need to understand that phase shielding has always been around within the context of Wing Commander. There are no "pre phase shield" capital ships. As weapon technology improves, newer torpedoes (as in WC2 or Prophecy) and guns (as in WC1 or WC3) are developed to most effectively combat the latest shielding.

Another major thing that you need to understand is that most fighters are not brand new the first time they're introduced in a game. Broadswords and Longbows were around long before WC2 and WC3.

Last but not least, the Longbow is not just a torpedo bomber. We see it used as a Search & Rescue craft as well.

Well, then I have a question, I remember reading about the designation of some destroyers that didn’t have phase shielding, I think they were classified as "DO". I'll lock for it and post the link when I find it...

By the way, I'd like to know more about the Coral Sea carriers, I hadn't heard of it before...

 

[Death]

There isn't any information about the Coral Sea outside of Action Stations, IIRC.

As for designations, as Chris said (and you quoted), capships have always had phase shielding, for (as far as we know) as long as there has been capship shielding. The usual classification for destroyers is DD, but that's a wet navy tradition going back the better part of a century, it has nothing to do with WC capship equipment.

(There's some other destroyer designations, but those are irrelevant to WC.)

 

[ELTEE]

I'm not sure whether or not you're kidding. The linear nature of time -- the same reason you aren't named 'Christopher Blair' in WC1. Wing Commander II, which invented the concept, was developed a year after Wing Commander I.

Also, we don't fly a bomber in Wing Commander I.

Well if we had had bombers available to us on the Tiger's Claw, I wouldn't have posted my questions and talked about flying raptors...

I'm well aware of the timeline surrounding what came first. I was questioning the history and importance of the torpedo, the makeup of the fighter craft in WC1 and the role of the bomber type in strike missions.

But I appreciate the reminder that II comes after I

 

[Bandit LOAF]

Well, then I have a question, I remember reading about the designation of some destroyers that didn’t have phase shielding, I think they were classified as "DO". I'll lock for it and post the link when I find it...

That's something the 'Fleet Tactics' fan site invented -- it doesn't appear anywhere in the published WC materials. I believe the number of 'official' designations for capital ships are fairly low.

There are a bunch for carriers -- CV, CVE, CVS, CVA and CVX -- but very few for others (LCA for Light Cruiser in False Colors... does anyone know any others?).

By the way, I'd like to know more about the Coral Sea carriers, I hadn't heard of it before...

Like the majority of ships, the Coral Sea is only a passing reference in a novel (Action Stations). If you're interested in obscure ships, though, here's the cited ship list I did: https://www.wcnews.com/articles/art22-2.shtml

 

[Bandit LOAF]

I'm well aware of the timeline surrounding what came first. I was questioning the history and importance of the torpedo, the makeup of the fighter craft in WC1 and the role of the bomber type in strike missions.

There were a limited number of Broadswords on the Tiger's Claw -- not a full squadron, but included instead in limited numbers. The Rapier squadron in the movie and the Scimitar squadron on Academy each seem to include two of them.

 

[Houkiboshi]

That's something the 'Fleet Tactics' fan site invented -- it doesn't appear anywhere in the published WC materials. I believe the number of 'official' designations for capital ships are fairly low.

Thanks, that’s where I got it from and I had the doubt...

"Exeter-class destroyers are now considered very obsolete and have been replaced by the Gilgamesh-class during the early 2660s. All existing Exeter-class warships are now in mothballs. It should be noted that they were retired as "DO" as non-Phase Shielded destroyers instead of "DA" and "DD", as the next generation shielding wasn't developed until after they were retired."

But in conclusion, does every type of capital ship has phase shielding??... Then what type of shielding do fighters have?...

Besides... why does the ship profile for the TCS Midway in the CIC's ship data base indicates its shield rating as "phase shields" (https://www.wcnews.com/ships2/wcpmidway.shtml) and the ones in the WC3 destroyer as 1000 cm (https://www.wcnews.com/ships2/wc3destroyer.shtml)...

If that is so, then how do we rate the strength of those ships indicating only "phase shielding"??...

I'm sorry for making such a big deal about it, but I'm just curious...

Like the majority of ships, the Coral Sea is only a passing reference in a novel (Action Stations). If you're interested in obscure ships, though, here's the cited ship list I did: https://www.wcnews.com/articles/art22-2.shtml

Thanks, I'll look into it

 

[ChrisReid]

Besides... why does the ship profile for the TCS Midway in the CIC's ship data base indicates its shield rating as "phase shields" (https://www.wcnews.com/ships2/wcpmidway.shtml) and the ones in the WC3 destroyer as 1000 cm (https://www.wcnews.com/ships2/wc3destroyer.shtml)...

If that is so, then how do we rate the strength of those ships indicating only "phase shielding"??..

Because Wing Commander 3 assigns a value of 1000 to the Destroyer's phase shields. In Prophecy, you can't rate the strength because there are no hit points associated with regular capship shields, and since no arbitrary number was ever assigned in any sort of fiction, all we know is that they use phase shields.

 

[Quarto]

But in conclusion, does every type of capital ship has phase shielding??... Then what type of shielding do fighters have?...

The question about capships isn't really applicable. The Victory in WC3 is a very, very old ship - and her shielding is on par with other ships of the era. It's fairly reasonable to believe that shield generators can be replaced with new ones during a refit. So, capships have whatever shielding their current generator allows.

As for fighters... short answer is yes. As near as we can figure out, "phase shielding" denotes the way all shield generators (except maybe for the "meson shields" from the Confed Handbook?) function. So, all shields are phase shields. However, their shielding obviously isn't exactly the same as a capship's, since you don't need to fire torpedoes to take them down.

If that is so, then how do we rate the strength of those ships indicating only "phase shielding"??...

Depends on the game. In WCP, as Chris mentions, there's just no way of knowing. In WC2, however, phase shields are 100cm or more (or rather, 100cm for everything else, 500cm for the Concordia) - that is to say, those are the values stored internally (which may not mean anything - after all, the end user was never meant to see these numbers, so they're not exactly an official source).

 

["Weed"]

On nuclear weapons:

Just finished reading “The Price of Freedom” and in which it states that the fighter/bomber launched Mark IV torpedo has a “multi megaton” warhead; and it alludes to them being non-effective if they detonate outside the shield barrier of warships. “Multi megaton”, no matter the explosive compound within the casing is pretty much “nuclear” in everyone’s book. A single MKIV torpedo launched from a Thud detonating inside the shield barrier, but not on the hull itself caused quite a lot of damage to a fleet carrier.

MACE is probably effective against shielded warships due to having a much larger warhead (it’s pretty much dumb fired) than torpedos which are full of other funky stuff. (Pure speculation.)

 

[hurleybird]

Most iconic Confed fighter? Excalibur, easily

 

[Bandit LOAF]

Just finished reading “The Price of Freedom” and in which it states that the fighter/bomber launched Mark IV torpedo has a “multi megaton” warhead; and it alludes to them being non-effective if they detonate outside the shield barrier of warships. “Multi megaton”, no matter the explosive compound within the casing is pretty much “nuclear” in everyone’s book. A single MKIV torpedo launched from a Thud detonating inside the shield barrier, but not on the hull itself caused quite a lot of damage to a fleet carrier.

The torpedoes in Wing Commander IV are nuclear -- the book refers to their fusion warheads, IIRC. That said, the ones in Fleet Action are antimatter, and their yeild also gets measured in megatonnes.

 

[Shere Khan]

Keep in mind that fighters aren't necessarily "growing obsolete" as you describe them. Rapiers first seen in WC1 continues to fly after the Kilrathi War ends, and Arrows, Longbows and other fighters we see in WC3 were similarly around prior to WC1.

point taken, but I meant obsolete from the player's POV. if we're talking about fighters being iconic, the main thing to be taken into consideration must be their... how do you call it... computer screen time. impression left in our fragile young brains. I doubt that the survey meant "iconic" from the point of view of actual Confed or Kilrathi pilots
of course a lot of the fighters have distinguished histories; surely Scimitar was pretty iconic in WC1 times but fact is, in the course of the classic 5 and a half games, we fly a lot of Confed fighters, not one of them for too long (and kill a Dralthi or five almost in every one of them) - that's what I meant by saying they became a thing of the past too soon for the player to grow some roots in.

 

[Quarto]

point taken, but I meant obsolete from the player's POV. if we're talking about fighters being iconic, the main thing to be taken into consideration must be their... how do you call it... computer screen time. impression left in our fragile young brains.

Well, screen time is significant, but it's not the only factor involved - a fighter can appear in a single game and make a stronger impact than something else that appears in multiple games. The Dralthi, for example. Which would you say is more iconic, the WC1 Dralthi, or the one seen in Armada, WC3, WC4 and WCP? To me, it seems like it's the WC1 Dralthi. That's *the* Kilrathi ship. Maybe because it shows up not only in the game, but also on the cover - in any case, it sure seems like the original Dralthi was just plain more memorable than its later versions.