Hobbes' Defection

Sylvester

Vice Admiral
I bought WC3 on GOG when it was released and I've been steadily replaying the game - and I just reached the point of Hobbes' defection. I'm well aware of (and have viewed) the video scene that didn't make it into the PC version that has Hobbes explaining via holo-message to Blair that the Hobbes he knew was just a personality overlay that was removed by Prince Thrakhath when he communicated with the Victory.

Frankly - I'm happy the scene was left out of the PC version. I would have preferred a message that went something like this:

"Colonel, I have decided to leave the Victory and rejoin my race. Please do not think think of this as a betrayal of you. In the years I have known you, you have fought with honor and courage worthy of the best Kilrathi warriors, and my reason for leaving now is in no way a reflection of your service to the Confederation. When I surrendered my ship to the Confederation 14 years ago, it was because I felt that the Empire's taking of slaves was dishonorable, and that this dishonor was further compounded by the annihilation of your Goddard colony, which could not defend itself with honor. I thought that our bloodlust would be the end of my race, and therefore I choose to fight for my enemy in order to preserve the honor of my people. It was a role that I had no misgivings about for all these years, until now. Destroying Kilrah with the Behemoth would be just as dishonorable as the destruction of Goddard was. This has shown me that the Confederation's bloodlust is just as deep as that of my bretheren. When faced with that reality, I have no choice but to defend my homeworld. I am aware that you will see this as a betrayal. For that Maverick, I am truly sorry. If we do meet in combat, I will expect you to do your duty, as you always have. Farewell.....my friend."

Anyone think this would have been more convincing then a personality overlay?
 
I'm okay with the overlay explanation too and I think it ought to have stayed in the PC version, but on the other hand, your explanation for his betrayal sounds much more realistic and in tune with Hobbes' character.

However, they had already established the setup with Thrakhath's "Trigger" or whatever halfway through WC3 and the subsequent message that had supposedly exposed the true Hobbes for what he was, so I guess we couldn't renege on that.
 
I like your explanation and I always liked that explanation better.
I was really disappointed when I first visited the CIC some years after I played and found out it was a cut scene and there was another explanation.
Especially because I think it doesn't really fit. If the Kilrathi are able to create a things such as a personality overlay, a complete traitor personality, they have incredibly powerful brain-manipulating techniques. So why don't they use them for something else?
I would expect people like Thrakath to use those fake personalities on all of his close allies to ensure that they can't work against him, or similar things.

Also if it was a fake personality, why the hell does Hobbes call me "old friend" and such things when I fight him? I don't get it. I would expect him to laugh in my face, taunt me, and call me furless freak. But for me the person I fight is the "fake Hobbes", I even thought I heard regret in his voice that we had to fight. But of course back then it was the German version and I doubt the translators knew of that whole secret personality thing.

Btw: Is that scene really canon? The book contradicts it I think and it was in only one of the released game versions, was it? So it was cut from the game on purpose. That means someone didn't want it to be in it. Maybe it was because of time reasons (didn't fit on the disk) But if it was important they would have cut some part of that endless intro or final cutscene and instead included that story-important scene, wouldn't they? Ok, then maybe they weren't able to cut parts of scenes but only whole scenes. But then again I would have cut some silly Maniac or cheesy Flint dialogue instead of that important thing.
I still don't get how things become to be canon and how they don't...
 
I had a good chat about this over at Ultima Aiera last week (got Ultima stuff? put it in the Ultima area.)

One thing that really struck me while I was going over the Wing Commander III script for the GOG release was how well planned the defection was--in the context of Wing Commander III alone. The game actually does a magnificent job setting up for it... especially, giving the player the option to vote against Hobbes time and again while being written in a way that you feel absolutely wrong doing so. You /can/ tell Rollins and Cobra several times that you're suspicious of Hobbes... but it's set up so no one takes those options because they're convinced Hobbes is their old friend or that it would be 'racist' to suspect him. It's really a clever script, more clever than anything in Wing Commander IV I think... because you should be able to look back and go "oh what I fool *I* was" instead of just "well, he pulled one over on my character." It's a level of interactive storytelling I certainly wasn't thinking about years ago.

The big problem is that it doesn't fit with Wing Commander II... and that's because as much as we hate to admit it, Wing Commander III pretty much ignores Wing Commander II. That's because WC2 wasn't a Chris Roberts project--he left it to others while did Strike Commander... and when he came back to the franchise he wasn't happy with some of the directions it took. And I don't blame him for that, really. As much as I love the game, objectively it is a bit "cuter" than everything else. Just having a character named Hobbes, really... and things like slavery storyline you mentioned above stick out. Having whole planets of Kilrathi defect because they've decided they hate slavery doesn't make sense... it makes them humans in furry coats.

Especially because I think it doesn't really fit. If the Kilrathi are able to create a things such as a personality overlay, a complete traitor personality, they have incredibly powerful brain-manipulating techniques. So why don't they use them for something else?
I would expect people like Thrakath to use those fake personalities on all of his close allies to ensure that they can't work against him, or similar things.

I don't think it's supposed to be a big technological reveal--the game spends a lot of time trying to make you suspect that /Cobra/ has such an overlay early on (prison camp, little bit of Kilrathi running around in my head and so on).

Btw: Is that scene really canon? The book contradicts it I think and it was in only one of the released game versions, was it? So it was cut from the game on purpose. That means someone didn't want it to be in it. Maybe it was because of time reasons (didn't fit on the disk) But if it was important they would have cut some part of that endless intro or final cutscene and instead included that story-important scene, wouldn't they? Ok, then maybe they weren't able to cut parts of scenes but only whole scenes. But then again I would have cut some silly Maniac or cheesy Flint dialogue instead of that important thing.

I'm not sure what you mean about the book... the Hobbes overlay hologram is in there, pretty much word for word.
 
That was the sticking point for me - that it did effectively ignore the character development of Hobbes in WC2. But taking WC3 as a stand-alone story? It does throw a difference perspective on the re-defection plot.
 
Its funny that you mention that Chris Roberts wasn't heavily involved in WC2, as WC2 is my favorite game in the series. I did get the whole "ignore WC2" feel - not so much the main game but Special Operations 1 and 2. A lot of Hobbes' development comes from those two chapters, and the slavery storyline is heavily brought up there. Also, its why Tolwyn returns to being a complete asshole in WC3 after he had mellowed out and become something of a mentor to Blair during Special Operations. And it basically completely ignores SO2 Maniac also.
 
WC2 is my favorite game in the series.

Interesting, WC2 is my favorite game in the series as well - but not necessarily because I'm married to how the story turned out. I think my love of WC2 originates more from the fact that it was everything I loved about WC1 with better story telling and more variety to the missions (better gameplay over all: think torpedos, jumping, etc.)

That being said, however, Hobbes has always been one of my favorite characters. (Yes, I love Hobbes from Calvin&Hobbes, but that's not why... no judgements, please!) I was absolutely crushed when he defected in WC3 and have questioned the whether I think the reasons for his defection were really *fit* his character or the Kilrathi's ability to 'overlay personalities,' and I think alot of this disbelief comes from the extra background that SO1 and SO2 bring up - as you suggested.
 
Having whole planets of Kilrathi defect because they've decided they hate slavery doesn't make sense... it makes them humans in furry coats.

I thought the planets defection had more to do with abuses at the hands of the central Kilrathi government and a belief that the Gods no longer favored the Kilrathi because of the disruption of the Sivar-Eshred ceremony by the Claw?
 
Its funny that you mention that Chris Roberts wasn't heavily involved in WC2, as WC2 is my favorite game in the series. I did get the whole "ignore WC2" feel - not so much the main game but Special Operations 1 and 2. A lot of Hobbes' development comes from those two chapters, and the slavery storyline is heavily brought up there. Also, its why Tolwyn returns to being a complete asshole in WC3 after he had mellowed out and become something of a mentor to Blair during Special Operations. And it basically completely ignores SO2 Maniac also.

The addon stories, in both games, were supposed to be a bridge to the next game, already in the planning stages. So it's interesting to look at Special Operations in that light--as a prequel for a Wing commander III that would have been developed for release in 1992/3.

I did a quick scan of the scripts at Wedge's site... slavery isn't mentioned in the addons (other than Tolwyn explaining that Mandarins aren't slaves.)

I thought the planets defection had more to do with abuses at the hands of the central Kilrathi government and a belief that the Gods no longer favored the Kilrathi because of the disruption of the Sivar-Eshred ceremony by the Claw?

No, I don't think that is referenced anywhere... besides, we see the rebellion on Ghorah Khar being planned *before* Firekka.

Hobbes claims he joined the rebellion because of (human) slavery.
 
Its funny that you mention that Chris Roberts wasn't heavily involved in WC2, as WC2 is my favorite game in the series. I did get the whole "ignore WC2" feel - not so much the main game but Special Operations 1 and 2. A lot of Hobbes' development comes from those two chapters, and the slavery storyline is heavily brought up there. Also, its why Tolwyn returns to being a complete asshole in WC3 after he had mellowed out and become something of a mentor to Blair during Special Operations. And it basically completely ignores SO2 Maniac also.

The add-ons were literally nowhere available for purchase at the time in my country. You can play the main games without missing the add-ons since the dialogue fills most of the gaps(Though I did enjoy backtracking SM1&2 later on to fill out the stories, the origins of Jazz and Doomsday, Maniac going psychotic), I got my hands on WC2 deluxe CD-rom a few months before the release of WC3, and it actually does fill in some gaps(Kilrathi's secret plot to capture earth, and how while you won, they were winning too), and it also puts a small faction of distrust on Hobbes, why would he let Thrakhath(who was locked under gunpoint in the brig) trick him so he could escape with the experimental crossbow??). The one real thing I ever noticed about ignoring the background was when Maniac got to be Squadron Leader in Prophecy, he mentioned he finally had his own squadron after all those years(He already had been the leader of the Wild Eagles in SO2, and he was mentioned in the dialogue by paladin in the main game about how he got promoted).
 
I would love to hear more about that "WC2 ist not a Chris Roberts project". WC2 is my favourite as well and I thought, it was a brilliant sequel to the first one, as it was doing almost everything right.

But now that you (Loaf) mention it: SM1/2 are excellent bridges to WC2, but SO1/2 didn't really feel like theey were bridging anywhere. WC3 totally started all over again, with Hobbes being the only reappearing WC2 character (or am I missing someone?). While WC2 had the argument on its side, that 10 years have passed, the new fighter style of WC3 was something, that puzzled me for a long time.

Now that I think about it: WC3 does almost everything as wrong as the movie or as Arena, but it's just that good, that we don't really care. Or am I totally out of line here?

Edit: I totally forgot Tolwyn...my bad!
 
... and Angel ? And Paladin ? And Maniac ? And Thrakath ? ;)

Hobbes and Tolwyn are not the only reappearing characters !
 
I should have been more specific: I meant original WC2 characters. I didn't count Angel, Paladin, Maniac, as they were introduced in Wing 1. Thrakath is a point, though :).
 
Hobbes claims he joined the rebellion because of (human) slavery.
I like the retcon in Academy, where it is revealed that the defections were also to a significant degree caused by clan tensions and Prince Thrakhath trying to force the clans to swear allegiance directly to him.
 
@LOAF:
Uhh... actually, I don't know why I said WC3 contradicts the book, you are right of course, it IS in the book. I had borrowed it from a friend years ago and read it only once so I don't remember all of it exactly.
But my point is still: We have sort of contradicting sources, so what decides whether something is canon or not? (You can blame my confusion to Star Wars because they have a bajillion levels of canon there and some people react almost religious when you "DESTROY STAR WARS" by quoting something which isn't.)

And are there any official statements about why the scene was cut?

btw: WC2 being somewhat "cuter" is maybe the reason why I don't like it that much. I liked WC3 most, if just a bit more thatn WC1. Although I admit that from some points of view WC2 rules. I like the missions more than those of WC2 for example. Good variety IMO. Maybe it is the graphics that I dislike most, those Kilrathi ships (and also some of the terrans) are too round for my taste. I prefer the angular ones from WC1 and the later parts of the series. The somewhat "realistic" look, which isn't realistic at all but looks good. ;)
 
Ugh, really?

Yes, but don't get me wrong. There are some parallels: Paladin is now brown-haired, Tolwyn does not like Blair, though he liked him in WC2, all ships are replaced/different, the Kilrathi look "different", Hobbes is a different character altogether. If WC3 was a mediocre or bad game, or the story was badly written, everyone would cry over those things as well. But since Wing 3 was great, it doesn't matter ;).
 
Yes, but don't get me wrong. There are some parallels: Paladin is now brown-haired, Tolwyn does not like Blair, though he liked him in WC2, all ships are replaced/different, the Kilrathi look "different", Hobbes is a different character altogether. If WC3 was a mediocre or bad game, or the story was badly written, everyone would cry over those things as well. But since Wing 3 was great, it doesn't matter ;).

You know, he has a point. If the Wing Commander movie was a cinematic masterpiece, nobody would be complaining that the Rapiers look like a 1950s jet with a gattling gun bolted on the nose or that the Tiger(s) Claw looked like a giant submarine in space.
 
I would love to hear more about that "WC2 ist not a Chris Roberts project". WC2 is my favourite as well and I thought, it was a brilliant sequel to the first one, as it was doing almost everything right.

In 1991, Chris Roberts and the core team were doing Strike Commander--that's why he only has a producer credit on Wing Commander II. At the time, Origin's philosophy was that their rock star developers would pioneer new technology and then journeyman teams would amortize the expense of those projects with sequels/spinoffs/etc. You see the same thing with the Ultimas--Garriott moved on to Ultima VII an then VIII while other teams made use of the engine his team had created with the Worlds of Ultima games and Serpent Isle (respectively.) (And the same with Strike Commander of course. The original plan was that the Phoenix Force and Privateer teams would use the engine... in reality it ended up being Pacific Strike and Wings of Glory.)

That's actually one of the big issues Roberts had with Wing Commander IV. He expected that having turned in that massive hit he would be allowed to move on to his next world-shaking dream project, a game called Silverheart. Instead, EA insisted that he do a sequel to Wing Commander III on an incredibly tight schedule...

But now that you (Loaf) mention it: SM1/2 are excellent bridges to WC2, but SO1/2 didn't really feel like theey were bridging anywhere. WC3 totally started all over again, with Hobbes being the only reappearing WC2 character (or am I missing someone?). While WC2 had the argument on its side, that 10 years have passed, the new fighter style of WC3 was something, that puzzled me for a long time.

Yes--because the thought at the time was that Strike Commander would ship in early 1992 and then that engine would be available for a Wing Commander III developed by the same group that did II. Then Strike slipped and Chris Roberts decided to take back creative control of 'his' franchise.

As for the characters: Wing Commander II had a cast of 21. A third of them die during the course of the game (Spirit, Shadow, Khasra, Minx, Crossbones, Downtown, Jazz) and by the time scripting for Wing Commander III started three more had been 'given' to Baen as the lead characters (Bear, Sparks, Doomsday.) Out of eleven remaining characters, eight appear in Heart of the Tiger: Blair, Angel, Hobbes, Thrakhath, The Emperor, Maniac, Paladin and Tolwyn.

... which means that only three characters from Wing Commander II actually go missing: Talon, Major Edmond and Stingray (and one of those ended the game crippled and no longer able to fly!)

But my point is still: We have sort of contradicting sources, so what decides whether something is canon or not? (You can blame my confusion to Star Wars because they have a bajillion levels of canon there and some people react almost religious when you "DESTROY STAR WARS" by quoting something which isn't.)

Star Wars has unfortunately kind of monetized 'canon' in an unpleasant way. None of that 'levels' bullshit means anything to anyone who matters... it's just an elaborate way to avoid turning off fans who would otherwise (as we see in the Star Trek community) choose not to buy "non canon" products. (No, no, this 1983 Marvel comic is still 'real', it's just... uh... orange level... so... you know, no one ever has to reference it... and... they can freely contradict it... but still please buy copies.)

In reality, a "canon" is much more open ended and maleable than any hardcore fan wants to believe. In a massive, massive shared universe like Star Wars or Star Trek where you have dozens of writers working on dozens of projects each year the licensor sets some rules... generally that you can't contract particular things. Despite Lucasfilm's PR campaign, that usually boils down to "don't contradict what's in the movies or TV shows." That's because those are 99% of the audience--the 1% who remember a fact established on a Happy Meal box in 1982 just don't matter (and are going to buy your product no matter how mad they are that you made the giant space rabbit orange instead of green.) And with these massive properties, that "canon" isn't even harshly enforced--no one expects a new contract writer for a Star Trek book to be responsible for picking over 800 hours of TV.

... and that's just for licensees. NONE of this matters to the core rights holders. It should be obvious by now that if EA or Lucasfilm or Paramount wants to completely change their own history, there's absolutely nothing to stop them. There's no hard "canon" to the guys writing Star Trek 14 or next week's Clone Wars episode... or Wing Commander 6. All of that is to say that 'canon' doesn't matter to anyone in the way that fans obsess over it... if Chris Roberts wants to change the story, he will.

Now, what is "canon" for Wing Commander, even if this isn't a hard and fast rule? With our comapratively small body of work it's everything--if you're licensing a Wing Commander card game or a novel or something of that nature you're allowed to pull from anything you want. Are there contradictions in there? Sure--there are in every franchise... but having a canon to refer to is the start of the process, not a code of law.

And are there any official statements about why the scene was cut?

Yes--it was a cut made very late in the process because more space was needed. Origin decided that they needed to (unofficially) support the still significant audience of people using first generation 1X CD-ROM drives. Those drives couldn't read the now-standard 74-minute discs... so everything had to fit onto 63-minute ones. And they had to make these cuts very late in the process which meant there wasn't time to rethink gameflow. The scenes that were removed (this one, the newsbriefs) were ones that weren't tied to any action.

If you were to take out a choice scene or a scene that's rewarding a choice then you have to go back and rebalance everything--that's why Hobbes' video is cut while Flash showing up to remind you you're the reason he's still around wasn't. It's also why the scenes went back in in the console versions--the standardized nature of the Playstation and 3DO meant that they could use larger discs without killing any potential sales. (Honestly I'm not sure the whole idea was even to make as much money as possible as it was to avoid a technical support nightmare.)

Yes, but don't get me wrong. There are some parallels: Paladin is now brown-haired, Tolwyn does not like Blair, though he liked him in WC2, all ships are replaced/different, the Kilrathi look "different", Hobbes is a different character altogether. If WC3 was a mediocre or bad game, or the story was badly written, everyone would cry over those things as well. But since Wing 3 was great, it doesn't matter .

Heh, tell that to the Compuserv flight sim forums in 1994--longtime fans were LIVID over the changes. That's one of the things that taught me never to take fan reaction very seriously... people will ALWAYS be furious about whatever the latest release is, no matter how good or bad it is.

You know, he has a point. If the Wing Commander movie was a cinematic masterpiece, nobody would be complaining that the Rapiers look like a 1950s jet with a gattling gun bolted on the nose or that the Tiger(s) Claw looked like a giant submarine in space.

In fact, if the movie were better I'm willing to bet people would be praising those exact things. In a world where everything, including historical war movies, is going all CGI, here's a big science fiction story striving to use real aircraft? What a cool, unique choice--especially compared to Lucas, who was simultaneously busy trying to airbrush out all his set built X-Wings! The command ship is a submarine in space? It's a natural fit and a clever thought--a different course from Star Trek and Star Wars and a good analog for selling audiences on the hostile and lonely environment of the space war.
 
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