Fighter numbers
- Thread starter Ladiesman^
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Ladiesman^
Spaceman
It just seems to me real unlikely that we wouldn't have heard of something like that. Especially with how many problems it caused in the movie. Why in WC1 was Hunter not gunning for Blair like he was the entire movie? Did Blair just magically become not a Pilgrim, or was everyone's memory erased? Why did Gerald, who gave him such a hard time the entire movie never showed his face? Once again I understand the movie happened after the fact. But that's whats bad about a prequel. Things that happen in it should show up later. The WCM doesn't do a good job of that. EVERYTHING that happens in the movie is isolated to the movie, aside from the intro.
Frosty
a full fledged GF
"It just seems to me real unlikely that the defendant didn't murder eighteen people," isn't going to convict anyone in a court of law, friend
Because Blair was a hero who saved the day and proved his trustowrthiness, maybe?
During which stretch of time in which Gerald does not showed his face are you asking about?
Yeah but it's not like you hear *anything* about what happened in WC or WCII when you play WCIII. Does that isolate these games? No.
[Edited by Frosty on 05-08-2001 at 16:15]
Once you convince Hunter you're cool (as in "a good guy") he treats you like his best friend, I guess.
How many times did you see Gerald, a career fleet if I ever saw him, in pilots country? He's an officer, not some low-down, draft-dodging, bleedin', profiteerin', double-time-for-overtime, "loaf thirty days, work 30 minutes" pilot! He's a commander, for Pete's sakes!
How many times did you see Gerald, a career fleet if I ever saw him, in pilots country? He's an officer, not some low-down, draft-dodging, bleedin', profiteerin', double-time-for-overtime, "loaf thirty days, work 30 minutes" pilot! He's a commander, for Pete's sakes!
Ladiesman^:
I think that the issue boils down to how important you think the Pilgrim aspect of Blair's character is. If one considers it to be a minor detail then it is plausible that it would never/rarely be mentioned in Blair's future (WC1-WCP). If you think it is a *really* big part of his character (that everyone in his environs is aware of) then it would be fair to expect that it would have been significantly visible in his career.
I think that the issue boils down to how important you think the Pilgrim aspect of Blair's character is. If one considers it to be a minor detail then it is plausible that it would never/rarely be mentioned in Blair's future (WC1-WCP). If you think it is a *really* big part of his character (that everyone in his environs is aware of) then it would be fair to expect that it would have been significantly visible in his career.
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
Ladiesman: Not to split hairs (hey, it's what I do!), but the Battle of Terra is in the timelines included in Armada forward -- it's actually part of the plot behind Armada.
If the movie had introduced character aspects that had already been established, I'd have had issues -- like if it'd given Maniac's dad a different name or somesuch.
As for the Pilgrim issue... how many Wing Commander characters religions can you name? Maybe six? Blairs was never established -- and it's never been an issue in the game (heck, it *shouldn't* be, after PS/PT...).
Gerald was, of course, replaced by Commander Nelson after Pilgrim Stars -- so he wasn't around to show his face. But then you *never* see the Tiger's Claw's first officer in the game -- but it's pretty much a given that the carrier *does* have one... so why can you bitch about specifically not seeing Gerald (ignoring the fact that he isn't around)?
If the movie had introduced character aspects that had already been established, I'd have had issues -- like if it'd given Maniac's dad a different name or somesuch.
As for the Pilgrim issue... how many Wing Commander characters religions can you name? Maybe six? Blairs was never established -- and it's never been an issue in the game (heck, it *shouldn't* be, after PS/PT...).
Gerald was, of course, replaced by Commander Nelson after Pilgrim Stars -- so he wasn't around to show his face. But then you *never* see the Tiger's Claw's first officer in the game -- but it's pretty much a given that the carrier *does* have one... so why can you bitch about specifically not seeing Gerald (ignoring the fact that he isn't around)?
Ladiesman^
Spaceman
Well, from the movie it seems to be REALLY important. At least everyone on the Tigers Claw knew about it. We don't know what would have happened on Carnarvon (spelling?), Concordia, etc.
But we DO know that the people on the Tigers Claw knew about it. And we knew it was a problem to a few people. Even if he did save the day, someone like Gerald wouldn't have cared. He doesn't like Pilgrims. Period. Anything they do wouldn't have changed his mind.
Paladin is another weird link in the story. In WC1 he's what...Captain Taggart? Something like that. Why? He went from Commodore, to Captain? A bit odd.
Too much of the movie just didn't fit. Even little things like the skipper missle. LOAF claims it doesn't work the same way as the WC3 one, but from I read it looks like it works just the same.
The fighters have been expained and I accept that, but like I said the material things like that didn't bother me.
But we DO know that the people on the Tigers Claw knew about it. And we knew it was a problem to a few people. Even if he did save the day, someone like Gerald wouldn't have cared. He doesn't like Pilgrims. Period. Anything they do wouldn't have changed his mind.
Paladin is another weird link in the story. In WC1 he's what...Captain Taggart? Something like that. Why? He went from Commodore, to Captain? A bit odd.
Too much of the movie just didn't fit. Even little things like the skipper missle. LOAF claims it doesn't work the same way as the WC3 one, but from I read it looks like it works just the same.
The fighters have been expained and I accept that, but like I said the material things like that didn't bother me.
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
Certainly, in early '54 being a Pilgrim was a big deal -- in the post war era Pilgrims were demonized "as treacherous, savage totalitarians", and they were blamed for many of Confed's failures during the Kilrathi war. The crew of the Tiger's Claw were quite normal to react with hatred to the fact that Blair flaunted his Pilgrim anscestry... but did they treat Paladin the same way? No -- because he didn't directly promote the fact that he was a Pilgrim... something that Blair presumably didn't do after the Tiger's Claw tour.
Of course, there are other reasons why it's no longer particulary important whether or not he's a Pilgrim... first, the acts of sabotage the Pilgrims were blamed for turned out to be the work of the Society of Mandarins, a far easier group to hate. Secondly, there *are* no more Pilgrims -- almost all of them leave the universe in Pilgrim Truth. Blair no longer represents a violent civil war, but is instead (if he even makes his anscestry known) an oddity... not to mention the fact that after the movie (and especially after WC1) he is regarded as a war hero or (after K'Tithrak Mang) a traitor. Even Gerald, with his understandable hatred of Pilgrims, reached an understanding with Blair for tihs reason.
(And if Blair didn't admit his heritage -- how would anyone know? He discovered what being a Pilgrim means, and he rejected that... it's doubtless that he has any interest in promoting his anscestry any more... and there are very few veterans of the Tiger's Claw to spread rumors).
The skipper missile is clearly a completely different weapon -- you've obviously listened to me talk about it before, but I can do so again if you'd like...
Of course, there are other reasons why it's no longer particulary important whether or not he's a Pilgrim... first, the acts of sabotage the Pilgrims were blamed for turned out to be the work of the Society of Mandarins, a far easier group to hate. Secondly, there *are* no more Pilgrims -- almost all of them leave the universe in Pilgrim Truth. Blair no longer represents a violent civil war, but is instead (if he even makes his anscestry known) an oddity... not to mention the fact that after the movie (and especially after WC1) he is regarded as a war hero or (after K'Tithrak Mang) a traitor. Even Gerald, with his understandable hatred of Pilgrims, reached an understanding with Blair for tihs reason.
(And if Blair didn't admit his heritage -- how would anyone know? He discovered what being a Pilgrim means, and he rejected that... it's doubtless that he has any interest in promoting his anscestry any more... and there are very few veterans of the Tiger's Claw to spread rumors).
The skipper missile is clearly a completely different weapon -- you've obviously listened to me talk about it before, but I can do so again if you'd like...
Frosty
a full fledged GF
That's fine, but there are a few problems...
- You're wrong
- Opinion is irrelevant when concerning *facts* like whether or not the movie is in the same universe
- It's not up for debate
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Everybody loves to throw their two cents in, even if they know they're wrong. As if some magical force compels everyone to let us know how they feel, even though it won't affect anything.
This constant going-around in circles where people state facts followed by people who spew opinions gets old quickly and starts to grate. If someone is clearly right and can prove it with factual evidence, yet you disagree, you probably don't have anything worthwhile to contribute to the discussion.
If you have to put "don't flame me" as a preface to a statement, it's a better idea to forego the whole thing.
Ladiesman^
Spaceman
Oh i've seen it prolly 5 or 6 times, and i've read the Confederation Handbook through.
I think the WCM, like just about every movie based on a game, isn't meant to be a part of that saga. Usually it takes factors from everything and puts them together. The WCM did that, for the most part. Well, not really. I think they attempted to with the Skipper missle (which btw I still think is the same damn thing as in WC3, however LOAF has penetrated the plating of durasteel around by brain before)
The thing I don't understand about the movie is why they took everything recongizable and threw it out the window. Why did they take a good thing like the Kilrathi war and put it as more of a distraction to the whole Pilgrim thing. Why would they add something like that? There was an entire world of possibilities they could have used instead of creating a whole new situation like that. I do wish the WCM was more like a live action WCATV. They had the right idea, using familiar ships, a familiar enemy, and creating stories from there. But in saying that, one of these two has to be wrong. Blair and Maniac go with Toylwn to the Tigers Claw while at the Academy. At least WCATV covered why the people from WC1 didn't know you at the beginning. Everyone on the Tigers Claw should have known Blair and Maniac from the movie.....but they didn't.
The WCM wasn't a terrible movie, it was just a terrible Wing Commander movie. Had it not had Wing Commander slapped on the name, I would have enjoyed it more.
I think the WCM, like just about every movie based on a game, isn't meant to be a part of that saga. Usually it takes factors from everything and puts them together. The WCM did that, for the most part. Well, not really. I think they attempted to with the Skipper missle (which btw I still think is the same damn thing as in WC3, however LOAF has penetrated the plating of durasteel around by brain before)
The thing I don't understand about the movie is why they took everything recongizable and threw it out the window. Why did they take a good thing like the Kilrathi war and put it as more of a distraction to the whole Pilgrim thing. Why would they add something like that? There was an entire world of possibilities they could have used instead of creating a whole new situation like that. I do wish the WCM was more like a live action WCATV. They had the right idea, using familiar ships, a familiar enemy, and creating stories from there. But in saying that, one of these two has to be wrong. Blair and Maniac go with Toylwn to the Tigers Claw while at the Academy. At least WCATV covered why the people from WC1 didn't know you at the beginning. Everyone on the Tigers Claw should have known Blair and Maniac from the movie.....but they didn't.
The WCM wasn't a terrible movie, it was just a terrible Wing Commander movie. Had it not had Wing Commander slapped on the name, I would have enjoyed it more.
Frosty
a full fledged GF
I could say I think NASA didn't land men on the moon, but that doesn't make it so. Giving one's opinion on what another's intent was is about the most pointless thing you can do.
Because as in the games and books, the movie is about the people. How can a movie which takes place in a *Very* short amount of time possibly be about a war which lasts decades?
The movie is about what takes place aboard the ship, between the crew, in a short timespan, this is not a change from the WC norm.
People would've liked the movie a whole lot less if it was a soulless documentary on the Kilrathi War. Guys like you would be screaming bloody murder about that instead.
Let it be.
[Edited by Frosty on 05-08-2001 at 20:18]
Ladiesman^
Spaceman
I don't want a documentary about the Kilrathi War. I want a movie about the war. I didn't want a movie about some religious-genetic-whatever the hell the Pilgrim thing is. I was hoping to see something like the games....in a movie. Focusing more on the combat and effects of war. Not religious opression.
Ladiesman^
Spaceman
....yes....:~(
Gagarin
Spaceman
They did the movie-within-a-movie thing with the Macross universe. Works pretty well.
And captain is a naval rank... but it is also other things on the other branches. In naval terms, a captain is right below a commodore.
Oh and uh.. who thinks End Run would have been a pretty good movie? =)
[Edited by Gagarin on 05-08-2001 at 21:42]
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
Paladin's status in WC1 was generally unknown... we *thought* he was Major Taggart and that he retired and joined up with Secret Ops... but it's been since indicated that he was *always* a spy (which we see in the movie).
And how minor is the Pilgrim thing in the movie? With the removal of the traitor subplot, it's almost utterly meaningless -- we learn that Blair's a Pilgrim, he fights the war, people respect him despite being a Pilgrim. Did you take some sort of stupid pills that made you miss tha 99.9% of the movie that was about the Kilrathi War?
Re: Academy. Only one episode of Academy, "Red & Blue", takes place before the movie. In this episode, Blair and Maniac are assigned to the Tiger's Claw... then comes the movie, where we physically see them being assigned to the Tiger's Claw. The other WCA episodes are later on in '54-55.
According to Jason in Fleet Action, End Run did *not* make a good movie.
And how minor is the Pilgrim thing in the movie? With the removal of the traitor subplot, it's almost utterly meaningless -- we learn that Blair's a Pilgrim, he fights the war, people respect him despite being a Pilgrim. Did you take some sort of stupid pills that made you miss tha 99.9% of the movie that was about the Kilrathi War?
Re: Academy. Only one episode of Academy, "Red & Blue", takes place before the movie. In this episode, Blair and Maniac are assigned to the Tiger's Claw... then comes the movie, where we physically see them being assigned to the Tiger's Claw. The other WCA episodes are later on in '54-55.
According to Jason in Fleet Action, End Run did *not* make a good movie.