False Colors with possible Spoiler

B

Ben

Spaceman
Spoiler possibly in here, so be warned...

Anyway, whats up with Tolwyn. I am shocked at the change in him since Action Station to False Colors. I remember him saying he didn't like the job of sending pilots to their deaths knowing they probably would die that mission, but most other commanders and above did too and none other went crazy like him. Was Vance the last straw. I mean, when Richards died did he just give out? Also, why'd Richards have to die, he was tight.

Also, is Bondaversky in any other future or past books? I don't recognize his name from any others yet.

Poor Tolwyn, started out a pure little fighter jock and ended up a crazy cold hearted killer

Ben
 
Richards isn't dead. He was still alive and kicking in the WC4 novel, working for the Border Worlds. I think the plan was that in one of the novels that were planned to complete the FC trilogy, Richards would be return having survived the loss of his ship.

Jason is a major character in two other novels, End Run and Fleet Action, and a minor character in the WC3 novel.

Regarding the change in Tolwyn, there's a thirty year span from Action Stations to False colours, all of it involving total war against the Kilrathi. That had a lot to do with Tolwyn's breakdown.

Best, Raptor
 
Crazy? Breakdown?

Oh, of course, I’m forgetting Tolwyn’s telltale line from False Colors: “Ah, but the strawberries! That's where I had them. They laughed at me and made jokes, but I proved beyond the shadow of a doubt, and with geometric logic, that a duplicate key to the wardroom icebox did exist!”

Now what page was that on again?:)
 
Well, a person doesn't have to be "loony toons" (what's commonly percieved to be the behaviour of a person with mental illness) to suffer from an actual mental illness. Mental illness is just like physical illness in that it shows a huge variety in both symptom type and severity. In the pharmacy I work in, I supply anti-pyschotic, anti-depressant and mood stabilizing medicines to a wide variety of people on a daily basis. Some of them are truly "out there", but the rest come in all forms. One of the symptoms of some forms of mental illness is delusions of grandeur, which Tolwyn would certainly fit. I mean, thinking that you're the sole hope of humanity and that by rejecting you humanity has doomed itself is just a little much, don't you think? Similarly, Tolwyn shows some signs of the flattened affect (emotional flattening) which allows him to ascribe the murder of billions as a regretable neccessity. And then, of course, there is the paranoia that magnifies a potential threat until the fear of that threat consumes him. Last but not least, there is the loss of fuctional capacity that sees him go from one of the best commanders of the war to being someone who was beaten by a rag-tag bunch of Border Worlders. All of the above signs are symptoms of some mental illnesses. Now, I'm not saying that Tolwyn was clinically insane (far from it, I think he was both aware of and responsible for his actions), but I don't think it can be ruled out, both from his actions in WC4 and from his past history, that the War ended up affecting his mental health.

Best, Raptor
 
As somebody already pointed out, Vance survives -- since he shows up in the WCIV novel. His death in FC would have turned out to be some crazy special ops plan, had Mr. Keith not passed away.

Bondarevsky isn't a main character again, but we're told in the WCIV novel that he was promoted to Rear Admiral and took over the Landreich's fleet.
 
BTW Jason Bondarevsky is from WC2 Special Ops 1, or was it Special Ops 2? I think it was 1. Anyways, he was the commander of a squadron on the TCS Gettysburg when she mutinieed. Jason is the one who negotiated that the mutinieers would come back to the Confed.

Just a little background info:)
 
Originally posted by Nemesis
Crazy? Breakdown?

Oh, of course, I’m forgetting Tolwyn’s telltale line from False Colors: “Ah, but the strawberries! That's where I had them. They laughed at me and made jokes, but I proved beyond the shadow of a doubt, and with geometric logic, that a duplicate key to the wardroom icebox did exist!”

Now what page was that on again?:)
Click to expand...

i saw that in a movie, iirc., about an american ship where the crew mutinies. turns out it was the cooks helpers who finished off the strawberries ;)
 
Okay, this is wierd. I just got a copy of False Colors, and it has William H. Keith's name on the cover. Yet I have heard elsewhere, and seen a picture with Andrew Keith's name on it. What's going on?
 
Stormin - That would be the 'Caine Mutiny'. And the character in question was played by Humphrey Bogart (there was a remake several years ago, but I think it was TV only).
Very good film for anyone who hasn't seen it.
 
Originally posted by Fenris
Okay, this is wierd. I just got a copy of False Colors, and it has William H. Keith's name on the cover. Yet I have heard elsewhere, and seen a picture with Andrew Keith's name on it. What's going on?
Click to expand...

Screw up at the publishing house, iirc. Appearently they couldn't keep track of the Keith brothers' projects. Andrew was the one invovled with FC and unfortunately passed away. He wrote one of the best author bios of all time which can be found towards the bottom of this page.

https://www.wcnews.com/memorials.shtml
 
Last edited by a moderator:
That would be the 'Caine Mutiny'.

Ah, Herman Wouk. I just finished his monster of a book "War & Remembrance" not too long ago.

I think Tolwyn held up pretty well for all that had happened to him (i.e. the death of his entire family). He snapped at the end, but we all know the story, so...
 
Originally posted by Raptor:
. . . delusions of grandeur . . . signs of the flattened affect (emotional flattening) . . . the paranoia . . . the loss of fuctional capacity . . .
Click to expand...

Well, Mr. Keefer, that certainly sounds impressive. Have a medical log to back any of that up?:)

Now, I'm not saying that Tolwyn was clinically insane . . . but I don't think it can be ruled out . . .
Click to expand...

But that he was sane can be?
 
Now I am confused...

Ok, I was looking over the situation of Vance's death, to see if it could be a special ops, but it clearly says that Richards was on the bridge, so it wasn't an option to be close enough to a shuttle
to escape. Then, a few seconds later, he was dead.

"One moment the Xenophobe was stil alive....
The next moment... Nothing"

Nothing implying no shuttle craft or anything to escape with. Even if he did escape, he could have sent a message after the battle to tell them he was alive. How could he have survived?

Also, how stupid can Bondversky be, Sparks is "beautiful" yet he never even considers her for a moment. Thats sad.

Tolwyn must have snapped from Vance's death, that is when he really seemed crazy...

You think Bondversky would realize the mad look in his eye and the way he was acting was odd, and thus he should tell his nephew or someone about it. Ahh, oh well, time to go back a few books to whatever I can scrummage around the library. Probably Fleet Action next...

Ben
 
Originally posted by Nemesis


Well, Mr. Keefer, that certainly sounds impressive. Have a medical log to back any of that up?:)
Click to expand...

Tolwyn's history, actions, thoughts, and behaviour as we've seen them in the WC4 game and novel would constitute a pretty good medical log, far more through than most health workers would have access to in real life. (And as for the criteria I was using, they're laid out in texts written for health workers, such as the American DSMV IV or the World Helath Organisation's ICD 10.) With our mental health system being as stretched as it is, those of us who deal with these people on a daily basis often have to be the ones who pick people who might be in serious trouble. If I had a patient with the kind of symptoms and history that Tolwyn had, I would be trying to get him admitted as soon as possible.

But that he was sane can be?
Click to expand...

As I said before, I don't think that he was clinically insane. Having a mental illness doesn't make one "insane", anymore than having a physical illness makes one "disabled". The current trend now is to try and integrate people with mental illnesses back into society as much as possible. The exception, of course, is those who pose a threat to themselves or others.

Best, Raptor
 
Originally posted by Raptor
The current trend now is to try and integrate people with mental illnesses back into society as much as possible. The exception, of course, is those who pose a threat to themselves or others.
Click to expand...
Which would, I suppose, include the ones that go around yelling "The strong shall survive!" ;)
 
Originally posted by Raptor:
Tolwyn's history, actions, thoughts, and behaviour as we've seen them in the WC4 game and novel would constitute a pretty good medical log . . .
Click to expand...

But as Mr. Keefer realized, saying it doesn’t make it so. This is just one more bald statement whose convenience is outmatched only by its audacity.

You’ve pointed out the efforts made to define and standardize the criteria for mental illness, such that a judgment about someone’s mental health is, and should be, subject to the investigation and determination of certain facts. I have to believe then you’d agree that bare statements associating Tolwyn’s actions with insanity, paranoia, depression, obsession (or whatever other labels have been shamelessly bandied about in the threads) should be held in the same contempt as those, say, linking the Nephilim and the Steltek via the color green. Surely questions about Tolwyn’s mental health fall under the jurisdiction of canon as much as the load-out of a Vesuvius-class carrier or the culture of the Kilrathi race.

Now I’ll certainly grant you that making the case for Tolwyn’s mental illness is far more complex than simply pointing to a few quotes in The Price of Freedom to demonstrate, for example, the link between the Excalibur and Lance fighters. But that difficulty is no excuse for throwing off the burden you’ve clearly assumed. (And in truth, I applaud your ambition.:))

So by all means present your case; lay out the canon; try to prove your claim.

If I had a patient with the kind of symptoms and history that Tolwyn had, I would be trying to get him admitted as soon as possible.
Click to expand...

Then no doubt you would have sought to be a defense witness and would have disagreed (and I guess do disagree anyway) with how he was ultimately judged and sentenced.

As I said before, I don't think that he was clinically insane.
Click to expand...

You didn’t answer my question. To put it another way, did you possibly leave out a qualifier when you originally and baldly referred to Tolwyn’s “breakdown”? (If not, then you obviously have a lot riding on the first point above.)
 
Originally posted by Nemesis
Surely questions about Tolwyn’s mental health fall under the jurisdiction of canon as much as the load-out of a Vesuvius-class carrier or the culture of the Kilrathi race.
Click to expand...
Not really, they don't - demonstrating how his actions conform to particular symptoms of insanity is sufficient... unless you can provide canon proof that he's not insane :). After all, if the books describe how things released in mid-air have a tendency to fall to the ground, do you still need a direct quote stating that gravity exists in the WC universe? I would hope not.

So by all means present your case; lay out the canon; try to prove your claim.
Click to expand...
But nonetheless, just to humour you.
"[...] But one man, deranged by war [...]" - WCIV trailer.
 
Also, how stupid can Bondversky be, Sparks is "beautiful" yet he never even considers her for a moment. Thats sad.

There's more to people than just looks. And he did consider her.
 
Originally posted by Quarto:
. . . demonstrating how his actions conform to particular symptoms of insanity is sufficient... unless you can provide canon proof that he's not insane.
Click to expand...

Not sure of your point. To me, you’re describing opposite sides of the same coin, especially since the conformity or lack thereof has yet to be demonstrated.

After all, if the books describe how things released in mid-air have a tendency to fall to the ground, do you still need a direct quote stating that gravity exists in the WC universe? I would hope not.
Click to expand...

Well, not after Newton I guess.:) Anyway, I would hope you’re not suggesting that an insane act automatically means an insane actor.

"[...] But one man, deranged by war [...]" - WCIV trailer.
Click to expand...

An advertisement. Well . . . sure, that has some worth as regards canon. Some.

But I think on this topic we should hope that something greater can be forged out of our principal sources of canon. (And that was the claim.)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top