Do you think Tolwyn was right?

Junior, your theory also supposes that the Kilrathi would lose. While that did happen, I wonder what made the Nephillim so sure that eventuality would happen? If we hadn't gotten a few lucky breaks, the Kilrathi would have won. You might be able to make the argument that even if the Kilrathi go undefeated they will never be able to develop the wormhole technology on their own, but that is a stretch as well. There are always the folks they conquer. I do agree with you the destruction of Kilrah acted as some means for them to get here. I love these kinds of discussions, do not get discouraged if folks disagree with you, btw. I come up with many odd theories myself :)

I do think thought LOAF has some offical WC source that says the Nephillim are the Star Gods. Don't rememebr what it was though.

Imagine that, my 500th post deals wih the Nephillim question :D
 
I'd argue that the fact that the Nephilim may very well be connected for a few reasons.

1.) The prophecy mentioned *bad things* happening after the destruction of Kilrah, and the planet was destroyed in WC3.
2.) The initial alien entry point into the local sectors was in the Kilrah system.

The coincidence of these two points alone would be enough to push me toward thinking there might be a connection. But then there's also the writing in the game, which introduces a third argument.

3.) The plot keeps bringing up the Kilrathi doomsday story over and over again. That seems to indicate that the writers thought it important to imprint in the mind of the players that these aliens might very well be connected to the Kilrathi Star Gods.


And on other points - the ability to use Wormhole technology does not prove or disprove the technological inventiveness of the Nephilim. They have it, and we don't know if they invented it themselves, or if they appropriated it from someone else (perhaps a prior victim).

Why don't the Nephilim search for technologies? Perhaps they are. We don't know anything about where they're from, or what they're doing in their own portion of space. Presumably, if WC6 ever sees the light of day, we'll have the opportunity to use the captured wormhole, but in the meantime, its all speculation. And the local area of space has apparently been ignored by them. Evidently it was fallow at the time (presumably the Steltek were gone by then, and since Confed and the Kilrathi weren't part of greater wholes instead of independent entities, there presumably hasn't been anyone around in a long time), which would have meant that there wasn't anything of interest to the Nephilim in the area.
Of course, it could be that the Nephilim have grown stagnant, and are content to let their little alarms go off around the galaxy instead of actively looking for new technologies to acquire.

Putting the Kilrathi on a possible collision course with the Nephilim requires a large enough ego on the part of the Nephilim to believe that the anarchic society of the Kilrathi is no threat to the (believe to be) hive-mind organization of the Nephilim.

Now as I stated, I don't think its a perfect theory, and I will mention a couple of problems with it that I see.

First is that any race that set up Kilrah as an alarm in such a fashion is incredibly farsighted. We're talking about taking a stone age civilization and doing something that won't take effect until they become an intersteller power. Thats a loooong time.

I had another, but for the life of me, I can't remember what it was right now.
Oh, well.
 
Shane - I think that, given enough time, the Kilrathi probably would have been able to develop worm hole technology (It may, in fact, be related to the ability to hide a jumpgate, which is evidenced in WC3). The problem is, once you've got it, where do you go with it?
I'll also be the first to admit that setting the Kilrathi up as is done requires a MASSIVE ego on the part of the 'Star Gods' (i.e. that the Kilrathi will never be able to defeat the Star Gods), but the problem is, that's exactly what we're looking at. The old Kilrathi prophecy basically reads 'Conquer or die.' Either the Prophecy was corrupted over the millenia, or the Star Gods effectively set the Kilrathi up on a collision course with the Star Gods' own society at some unknown point in the future.

I suppose other theories might be...

The Nephilim are the local equivalent of the Shadows, but without the ultra tech. In other words, the Nephilim believe strongly in the survival of the fittest, and that competition makes one stronger, to the point that they aren't afraid of potential competitors (they'll have created someone fitter than they, after all, which validates their warped philosophy).
The Nephilim were banished to an alternate dimension (like the Antarians in MOO2), and the seal was the planet Kilrah itself. If this were the case, however, I'd have expected the Star Gods to have made the Prophecy more along the lines of 'protect the planet at all costs' without mentioning all the parts about fighting.
The Nephilim are like the Shivans from Freespace, and the Star Gods (who were dying out), intended that the Kilrathi might eventually destroy the Nephilim. They also knew that something about Kilrah specifically would attract the attention of the Nephilim if the planet itself were to be destroyed (this theory actually sounds rather workable...).
 
Originally posted by SeetherAce
I know the Telemon tragedy was, well, a tragedy, but don't you think humanity should've honed it's fighting skills to prepare for the arrival of the Mantu?
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Going back to the name of this thread and what you've said here, I think that most people will agree Tolwyn was right, but that it was his methods that were "wrong".
 
I know I agree with that statement, I mainly disagree with the bioweapon and supersoldier parts I don't have a problem with the secret forces and secret fighters.Or the main idea he had
 
Re: Re: Do you think Tolwyn was right?

Originally posted by LeHah


Going back to the name of this thread and what you've said here, I think that most people will agree Tolwyn was right, but that it was his methods that were "wrong".
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Basically, he was right and wrong at the same time. This tends to happen when you get a bit ovezealous about something.
 
A) Junior, I think you should move that discussion to a completely new thread-I'd love to continue and follow up, plus add my opinion, but not in this one.

B) I think Tolwyn had a good idea, but the wrong method as well. What I find rather ironic, is that he wanted to create a superior fighter, wish the most advanced weapondry, etc., etc. But isn't that what the Fleet is supposed to do? (Granted, all the members aren't "genetically superior" as he wanted, but I thought the purpose of ConFleet was to protect the Confederation with their Marines/Space Force.)
 
I've tended to notice that too...it's almost like it's preplanned... :) (Are you guys having parties to determine this stuff when I'm not around? :D )
 
Originally posted by Saturnyne
heh heh... not to worry, Skyfire. All threads usually deviate from their intended course. :)
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Speaking of which, did anyone happen to catch Malcolm McDowell on Lexx tonight?
 
Originally posted by Skyfire
I've tended to notice that too...it's almost like it's preplanned... :) (Are you guys having parties to determine this stuff when I'm not around? :D )
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we have hourly meetings.
 
Re: Re: Do you think Tolwyn was right?

Originally posted by LeHah


Going back to the name of this thread and what you've said here, I think that most people will agree Tolwyn was right, but that it was his methods that were "wrong".
Click to expand...


I wouldn't go that far, actually. Yes, Tolwyn was right when he said "We will eventually face another alien threat", but only in the same way that anyone who says "We will eventually fight another war" or "We'll have a sharemarket crash" is right when the said event happens at *some* time in the future. Given enough time, that kind of general prediction will *always* be fullfilled. By that very low standard of what it takes to be right, just about every doomsayer would be right, because their predictions *will* come true at some point in the future.

Tolwyn got far more wrong than he did he right. Even leaving aside the question of his methords (which seeing as they included genocide and dictatorship are hardly a minor issue), he totally mispredicted what humanity would need to do to win the next war. He thought that we would have to have engineer ourselves into the Master Race. He thought an elected government in the hand of civilians (a democracy, in other worlds) was doomed to be destroyed. He thought we would have to keep ourselves in a constant state of war to win against the next alien threat. We didn't do *any* of that, and we handed the Nephilim their chitinous backsides. We were a peacefull, law abiding nation that threw the Nephilim back not just once but twice, each time using but a fraction of our forces. That fact that we won so convincingly is the proof that Tolwyn wasn't right. A nation don't need to be a warmongering bully that opresses its neighbours and its own people to win its wars.

Best, Raptor
 
sigh... since there is such a division in this matter, the question shouldn't be whether one thinks Tolwyn is right... common sense dictates that the question should be "why do you think Tolwyn is right or wrong".
 
I am also tiring of the damned topic, since it seems to be bounced back and forth between me and Raptor every other week.
 
You humans give up so easily. It's a wonder you ever managed to defeat us. :)

Seriously, I'm not in the mood for another extended debate, either. Let's just leave it as is.

Best, Raptor
 
Originally posted by Soma
Speaking of which, did anyone happen to catch Malcolm McDowell on Lexx tonight?
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I coulda sworn he was in more than one Lexx movie.

[Until that day then...]
 
Originally posted by Raptor
You humans give up so easily. It's a wonder you ever managed to defeat us. :)
(...)
Best, Raptor
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Since when are the Kilrathi defeated? (I know what answer I'll get...) <g>
 
Although I appreciate having the fuzzba - erm - Kilrathi viewpoint at this board, until you Kilrathi accept your defeat and move on there is no way you can ever defeat the Terrans. Wallowing in the glories of the past isn't going to get you anywhere.
 
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