Deflection Shooting

[ELTEE]

I started thinking about this while reading discussion online about the ITTS and how some players preferred fighting in the older ships without it. Deflection has always been an important skill in Wing Commander. But I wonder if it is accurate?

I imagine that there wouldnt be much deflection required at all for energy weapons like the laser cannon. I think the challenge would be, in a space "dogfight," actually pointing your ship and its aiming reticle exactly at the opposing fighter and pulling the trigger. It would have to be at just the right moment. I imagine that a battle with energy weapons could potentially be more like trying to capture a still side view photograph of a race car when your standing trackside; the car goes by so fast, you would have to time it just right.

Now, I realize that conditions wouldnt always be like that. It would be much easier if both fighters were travelling with the same relative velocity; perhaps they are aimed at each other but inertia continues to pull them in the same direction. It would be much easier to get that still of the race car if you're not standing trackside but in the pace car with a matched speed. But for high closing speeds, i'm not sure deflection would be a factor.

I guess I'm asking if laser fire would be more like phaser fire in Star Treck?

On the other hand, the Vipers in BSG would require deflection, of course, since they aren't using energy weapons. What would make things REALLY interesting would be the combination of both weapon types on a single fighter. I think that exists in Wing Commander with the mass driver cannon. In essence, combining mass drivers with the laser or particle cannon would make for some very interesting gunnery practices! I know its mostly pointless speculation on my part but let me know what you guys think.

 

[Shaggy]

In real life a laser deflection shot would be like your photo example. WC is not technically accurate but dramatically accurate, much like Star Wars. So it does force you to maneuver and follow a fighter for a good shot for challenge and creating the drama of the moment.

 

[Mjr. Whoopass]

With the velocities space fighters in the future could be flying at and assuming a profile the size of a Wing Commander ship, a deflection shot could be VERY tough or nearly impossible for a person to land. Of course some factors could help to make it easier: such as if a sophisticated targeting computer made corrections. Another possibility is that the weapons could be magnetized so that even a close shot from your weapon could home in.

I think ELTEE's assertion about energy weapons not requiring a deflection angle should apply to at least some of the energy weapons. For instance, if a tachyon cannon travels at the speeds of a current physics theory on tachyons, then you may not even need to make a deflection shot. If you're using a Tachyon Cannon you could probably point and shoot directly at the fighter (without having to 'lead' it) even if it's travelling perpendicular to you.

What would make things REALLY interesting would be the combination of both weapon types on a single fighter. I think that exists in Wing Commander with the mass driver cannon. In essence, combining mass drivers with the laser or particle cannon would make for some very interesting gunnery practices! I know its mostly pointless speculation on my part but let me know what you guys think.

I agree that with those two weapons travelling at different speeds, strategies for making a deflection shot could be interesting. The deflection and amount of lead would be different for each type of weapon, and it's possible for one to completely miss and the other to hit. I could imagine two streams of fire coming from your weapons, one spraying out ahead of the other weapon type. Scoring a hit might be similar in some ways to scoring a hit with the Wing Commander IV 'scatter cannon' or 'starburst missiles'; where you might not score a hit with every stream of fire.

Of course in Wing Commander, the weapons seem to travel to the same point. This could be explained by the targeting computer making the appropriate adjustments so that the different weapons would harmonize at the same point as it calculated the opposing fighter's distance and speed. If a targeting computer DOES have this function of weapons harmonization, it's too bad it doesn't work well on the Bearcat's weapons

 

[Tigerhawk]

I started thinking about this while reading discussion online about the ITTS and how some players preferred fighting in the older ships without it. Deflection has always been an important skill in Wing Commander. But I wonder if it is accurate?

I imagine that there wouldnt be much deflection required at all for energy weapons like the laser cannon. I think the challenge would be, in a space "dogfight," actually pointing your ship and its aiming reticle exactly at the opposing fighter and pulling the trigger. It would have to be at just the right moment. I imagine that a battle with energy weapons could potentially be more like trying to capture a still side view photograph of a race car when your standing trackside; the car goes by so fast, you would have to time it just right.

Now, I realize that conditions wouldnt always be like that. It would be much easier if both fighters were travelling with the same relative velocity; perhaps they are aimed at each other but inertia continues to pull them in the same direction. It would be much easier to get that still of the race car if you're not standing trackside but in the pace car with a matched speed. But for high closing speeds, i'm not sure deflection would be a factor.

I guess I'm asking if laser fire would be more like phaser fire in Star Treck?

On the other hand, the Vipers in BSG would require deflection, of course, since they aren't using energy weapons. What would make things REALLY interesting would be the combination of both weapon types on a single fighter. I think that exists in Wing Commander with the mass driver cannon. In essence, combining mass drivers with the laser or particle cannon would make for some very interesting gunnery practices! I know its mostly pointless speculation on my part but let me know what you guys think.

You're right here. Mass drivers certainly DO require deflection angles to generate hits (as do the Vipers on BSG, as even just last week there was a couple of references to zero-angle deflection shots), and I think that I've played Prophecy so much that I'm an ITTS junkie.

Lasers in the WC universe, however, don't work on an instantaneous principle. Fly the Arrow in the Standoff simulator, and you'll see what I'm talking about...it has the ITTS, yet the sliding that occures with that fighter (because it's so damned small and maneuverable) makes deflection shooting even with the ITTS a bit of a challenge, and you almost have to anticipate where the reticle is going to go, much less where the laser and the opponent ship will be when that laser may reach its target.

Anyway, the point is, at 11:30 pm Central time with a sleep-deprived brain, that the laser is (roughly) as slow as the mass driver in the WC universe and go off-angle when afterburner and off-angle slides occur.

 

[Tigerhawk]

"Being a Christian isn't always a cruise ship to heaven. It's often like boarding the TCS Midway surrounded by Nephilim... with the same destination."

Dude, that's harsh...yet funny!

 

[Mjr. Whoopass]

Dude, that's harsh...yet funny!

Thanks Tigerhawk, I appreciate that. My Dad read the original quote to me from a book. It was years ago, but I think it was something like "Being a Christian isn't a cruise ship to heaven. It's like boarding a battleship stationed at the gates of hell." I decided to give it a Wing Commander spin; since the Nephilim are the enemies in Prophecy and are also in the Bible; I thought it was a nice double entendre.

 

[Saturnyne]

Also worthy of note is that the game was made to simulate World War II flying physics to a certain extent.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

Wing Commander's laser bolts travel at between 1,400 and 4,000 kps, depending on version (Privateer is slowest, Prophecy is fastest). At best, that's just over 10% as fast as actual light (... I think -- better get someone who actually knows physics to figure that part out).

Still, it's a neat thought process and would be a cool thing to see in a 'realistic' space game. You could have near-instant lasers and things like fields of debris to throw at enemy space capsules...

 

[Mjr. Whoopass]

Still, it's a neat thought process and would be a cool thing to see in a 'realistic' space game. You could have near-instant lasers and things like fields of debris to throw at enemy space capsules...

I agree that it would be a cool thing to see that. You could have different types of fighters with weapons that function very uniquely. This would add an extra dimention to the game and require different strategies and knowing the weaknesses of the enemy fighter you were up against.

It reminds me of Wing Commander 1 where the Tigers Claw pilots were explaining how the Dralthi generally turns up and down due to the visibility in the fighter (Salthi's tend to turn a certain way too [break right?]). Anyways, there could be additional strategies for weapons of different types: faster moving lasers might be weaker, but are more accurate from longer distances and don't require you to 'lead' as much.. perhaps a Tachyon cannon could be very powerful and not require you to lead, but the force of the shot could stall your ship.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

I agree that it would be a cool thing to see that. You could have different types of fighters with weapons that function very uniquely. This would add an extra dimention to the game and require different strategies and knowing the weaknesses of the enemy fighter you were up against.

Frosty and I came up with a 'alternate history' space sim some time ago... the Cold War in Space -- take off in Air Force Gemini capsules and attack Russian Salyut stations and such. Conduct orbital bombing in a Dynasoar spaceplane. Stuff like that. You could do it with real physics and unique space weapons.

It reminds me of Wing Commander 1 where the Tigers Claw pilots were explaining how the Dralthi generally turns up and down due to the visibility in the fighter (Salthi's tend to turn a certain way too [break right?]).

Salthi always turn left, because of how their engine ducts are arranged.

 

[Vinman]

Thinking back to flying Tigersharks in Prophecy, I think I remember weapons having different velocities. I remember firing full guns during a turn and the mass drivers would go dribbling out of the barrel and lasers would go zooming off to the target.

 

[ELTEE]

haha, the idea of Gemini capsules as combat vehicles is AWESOME... I haven't thought of the failed dynasoar in a long time.

I can't believe how close we are to employing lasers in combat. A buddy of mine in the air force was talking about plans to deploy tactical lasers on the new F-35 JSF. One design has it being stored internally too; it would extend out of the bottom of the fuselage and fire once the target was acquired. An idea like this ten years ago would have been crazy! Now, we're thinking end of the decade.

I think one of the most important areas of technology that we are missing for at least inter solar system exploration is gravity production. Even with present propulsion technology, if we could produce artificial gravity, who wouldn't sign up for Earth's first exploration carrier? Does anyone know of any theories on how we'll get around this? When I was younger; like REALLY young; I used to imagine the crew of some exploration vessel wearing magnetic boots that would mimic the strength of Earth's gravity.

 

[Blaster]

Light, in a vacuum, travels at 300,000 kilometers per second. That means the Prophecy laser bolts are just over 1% of the speed of light.

One strange thing about light is that you will always measure it to have the same speed no matter how fast you’re going. For example if you’re in a ship going 75 kps faster than another ship behind yours, and that one fires a missile which goes 100 kps, the missile will appear to be moving toward you at 25 kps. However if the ship fires a laser at you it will always appear to be moving at 300,000 kps regardless of how fast you are moving away from it.

 

[McGruff]

So, if Wing Commander fighters are not firing bolts of energy, what exactly is coming from your guns when you fire a volley of "lasers"?

 

[Bandit LOAF]

The issue isn't energy (a machine gun shoots energy), it's whether or not a laser (in WC) is pure light... and it isn't.

 

[Saturnyne]

It's hard to say. One could say that they are highly charged plasma bursts, but the guns are dependant on a power planet, which doesn't produce anything like that...

iirc, the Mass Drivers use debris and dust, compacted into a projectile when used.

Of course, the thing people never acknowledge is that WC starts more than half a millenium from now. The 27th (and a half!) century. So our technology might be able to generate destructive bolts of energy, that can be expended like bullets, but the supply is not dependant on shells, but energy in the power plant.

I guess the "lasers" are intense bolts of highly charged, destructive energy. Of course, the operative word in "science fiction" is the latter, so think of it what you will.

 

[McGruff]

............Of course, the operative word in "science fiction" is the latter, so think of it what you will.

Right, but it's science fiction placed in our own future which is governed by the same physical laws - as opposed to something like Star Wars where magical mind powers are commonplace.

Of course there are other discrepancies regarding the laws of nature in Wing Commander. Fighters turning on a dime comes to mind, but things like that can be rationalized away with futuristic technobabble to explain them. We may not know what WC lasers, tachyons etc. are exactly, but like LOAF says, they can't be pure light (or another form of energy that travels the speed of light).

 

[Delance]

Frosty and I came up with a 'alternate history' space sim some time ago... the Cold War in Space -- take off in Air Force Gemini capsules and attack Russian Salyut stations and such. Conduct orbital bombing in a Dynasoar spaceplane. Stuff like that. You could do it with real physics and unique space weapons.

I remember a site with "autentic" military design for spacecraft dating from the cold war era, none of which were ever built.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

I remember a site with "autentic" military design for spacecraft dating from the cold war era, none of which were ever built.

Yeah... as cool as things like that are, you have to be fairly wary of it as actual fact. It's similar to the "German jets" that amateur historians fawn over these days. They're cool as hell to think about... but the vast, vast majority of what you see is very heavily romanticized. Someone's brief scribble on a napkin or suggestion at a meeting isn't the same thing as a secret Nazi fighter or an elaborate American space program.

I've seen the same 'concept' stuff, and it's generally not entirely serious. The United States Air Force did have a 'military' version of the Gemini that it put quite a lot of effort into... but it was for crewing something called the Manned Orbital Laboratory, which was basically a small temporary space station that could be used for spying on the Russians. The USAF went so far as to train its own group of astronauts and such... but the project never actually made it to space, as it was replaced by superior automated spy satellites (American leadership at the time was fairly uninterested in supporting a military manned spaceflight program).

Still, I do think it would make an amazing setting for a game. Think of a Wing Commander-style scramble sequence where the pilots put on their space suits and run down the hallways of a Titan missile silo...

 

[Delance]

That'd be great, and thankfully the heavily romanticized version generally makes good video games.

I tell what I'd also like play in a game: dogfight in spacesuits Moonraker-style. I wonder if all that space combat was influenced by the release of Star Wars a couple of years before.