Continuity

[Bandit LOAF]

Well, allright, how often do we hear about whatever Blair's "real" religion is?

 

[Viper61]

He doesn't even know what his religion is until the WCM (which is kindof strange since the War and history itself would have plenty of oppurtunity to record tons of details about the Pilgrims), the Cross was just something he held onto as a reminder of his parents. We don't even know that he practices that religion later (since we don't hear about it, its probably a good indication that he doesn't-just because he's a Pilgrim descendent, doesn't mean he practices the religion).
I always thought of his Pilgrim heritage as a little more of a reason why Blair is just so damn good at being a pilot, nothing more.

C-ya

 

[dextorboot]

Well, allright, how often do we hear about whatever Blair's "real" religion is?

Well, why would we hear about it if it was anything out of the ordinary? How often do we hear about each pilot having 10 normal fingers? It's only when someone loses an arm does it ever come up. When those digits are no longer normal.

We also hear about the Kilrathi religion all the time. Could it be because it's different than the norm for humans?

I always thought of his Pilgrim heritage as a little more of a reason why Blair is just so damn good at being a pilot, nothing more.

I tend to agree.

 

[Manic]

Oh no! Blair's first tour of duty was on the Tiger's Claw... and also... the Tiger's Claw?! I can't figure out the connection! Help!

(This, of course, ignores the fact that neither source claims that the Tiger's Claw was his first assignment - he had previously served on the Formidable, the Waterloo and lectured at the Academy...)

Ya got me there, forgot about his previous assignments. anyways, back to the other points...
Aside from the name discrepancy:
1. Both plotlines Blair is treated as though this were his first visit to the ship.

2. Bossman didn't die until much later in the game series. Blair was the(now dead)Bossman's replacement in WCM. What was Bossman, Jesus Christ in disguise? Did he suddenly rise up from the grave after a few months? Highly unlikely.

3. Paladin was a pilot based out of the tiger's claw in WC1. He was a spy in WCM, who had never flown aboard the 'Claw before arriving, supposedly. (None of the other pilots who were so friendly with him in WC1 seemed to even know of him)
4. Paladin was not French. French people don't say "laddy," or "lass," or "bonny," they insult people who do.
I'm aware of the various theories which try to explain this. Doesn't explain why, through the entire game series, he had a scottish accent implied(and executed by John Ryes-Davis), but had a French accent in WCM. If WC1 happened after WCM, why didn't our favorite Scotsman recognize him? Why the sudden change in accents? It's never alluded to in any of the fiction that he knew Blair before the events of WC1. It wasn't to "keep his cover," as all the pilots you meet in WC1 were also in WCM, and knew of Paladin's true rank towards the end.

The movie takes place several months before WC1. Three months ago I was in Atlanta. A month ago I was in Austin. Next month I'll be in Paris. Which parts of my life exist?

I doubt someone who had flown alongside Blair for such a battle would say "Ach, hello laddy! I'm Paladin!" when he ran into him again. Nor would Angel, who he had tickled tonsils with at the end of WCM. Talk about cold shoulders, if that was the actual case... Even if ol Pally were hiding his real purpose, Angel wouldn't. Not to mention Hunter, Maniac, or the others for that matter... I'm sure they'd recognize a shipmate from a few months before.
"Hi! I'm Maniac!"
"G'day mate, I'm Hunter!"
^I forget the exact phrases, but they were along these lines. You fellas keep trying to pound that Yugo tranny into place... Myself, I'd rather toss it aside. It doesn't fit.

 

[Bob McDob]

Regarding the original topic, I think the reason we try to fit every piece of WC material into an official continuum is that we have so little of it. It's the opposite problem of something like Star Wars, with tens of thousands of things produced and often contradictory to the point where Lucas had to issue an official canonity guide. Wing Commander, in spite of differences in appearance, has generally had no such problem (apart from maybe the Confederation Handbook ... and even that adds its fair share of interesting tidbits). So it makes sense to consolidate it simply for the sake of having a more fully realized backdrop.

 

[Col.Dom]

Ya got me there, forgot about his previous assignments. anyways, back to the other points...
Aside from the name discrepancy:
1. Both plotlines Blair is treated as though this were his first visit to the ship.

2. Bossman didn't die until much later in the game series. Blair was the(now dead)Bossman's replacement in WCM. What was Bossman, Jesus Christ in disguise? Did he suddenly rise up from the grave after a few months? Highly unlikely.

3. Paladin was a pilot based out of the tiger's claw in WC1. He was a spy in WCM, who had never flown aboard the 'Claw before arriving, supposedly. (None of the other pilots who were so friendly with him in WC1 seemed to even know of him)
4. Paladin was not French. French people don't say "laddy," or "lass," or "bonny," they insult people who do.
I'm aware of the various theories which try to explain this. Doesn't explain why, through the entire game series, he had a scottish accent implied(and executed by John Ryes-Davis), but had a French accent in WCM. If WC1 happened after WCM, why didn't our favorite Scotsman recognize him? Why the sudden change in accents? It's never alluded to in any of the fiction that he knew Blair before the events of WC1. It wasn't to "keep his cover," as all the pilots you meet in WC1 were also in WCM, and knew of Paladin's true rank towards the end.



I doubt someone who had flown alongside Blair for such a battle would say "Ach, hello laddy! I'm Paladin!" when he ran into him again. Nor would Angel, who he had tickled tonsils with at the end of WCM. Talk about cold shoulders, if that was the actual case... Even if ol Pally were hiding his real purpose, Angel wouldn't. Not to mention Hunter, Maniac, or the others for that matter... I'm sure they'd recognize a shipmate from a few months before.
"Hi! I'm Maniac!"
"G'day mate, I'm Hunter!"
^I forget the exact phrases, but they were along these lines. You fellas keep trying to pound that Yugo tranny into place... Myself, I'd rather toss it aside. It doesn't fit.

*Sigh,* all those "discrepancies" have been explained to death. I'm not in the mood to type them all out but just know they exist. Either I'll post the answers tomorrow or LOAF will do it for the one thousandth time.

 

[dextorboot]

*Sigh,* all those "discrepancies" have been explained to death. I'm not in the mood to type them all out but just know they exist. Either I'll post the answers tomorrow or LOAF will do it for the one thousandth time.

Quite frankly, the explanations haven't been good enough. People aren't accepting them. You can explain them "to death" all you want, but if you're just going to use the same old reasons, people won't change their minds.

 

[Viper61]

Quite frankly, the explanations haven't been good enough. People aren't accepting them.

No, you and I'd say about 10% of the active posters here aren't accepting them. The rest of us are either happy with them or know its not worth wasting our time arguing about something that is really not going to cause one freakin solitary ripple on the lake of life.

. . .people won't change their minds.

Revelations abound

C-ya

 

[Lionheart]

How about this: the movie wasn't written solely for WC fans, but also for the average moviegoing audience. The typical moviegoer is most likely not a WC fan, and it was most likely that this would be the only foreseeable Wing Commander movie, so the "discrepencies" in the movie were only written as such because they were trying to tell a story for more people than just us.

Also, they didn't write Paladin as a Frenchman, they just felt that Tcheky Karyo was the best of the actors who auditioned for the role (I think Tcheky auditioned, anyway), and went with him. Personally I don't mind because I thought he gave the best performance in the movie.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

[size=+1]Manic[/size]

1. Both plotlines Blair is treated as though this were his first visit to the ship.

Here's a quote from a post I made some time ago addressing this issue:

As for knowing Blair at the Academy -- that's been a part of WC's mythology since the first game... the introductions in WC1 are to give the *player* an introduction to the characters. Maniac and Blair were both graduates of the most recent Academy class according to Claw Marks, and details of the Academy years are found in the aforementioned WC1/2 Guide. We can look at the 'introductory' conversations one at a time, though... (Shotglass, Bossman, Iceman and Spirit can be ignored, since there's no indication that they'd met Blair previously). I do, of course, recognize *why* they were originally written -- but I think we can examine them in another light now...

Angel, Hunter and Knight all start their 'intro' callsigns asking if they have Blair's callsign right...

"Maverick, right? I'm Knight."
"You're Maverick, right? They call me Hunter, mate. G'day."
"Bonjour, Lieutenant. You are called Maverick, no?"

Given Blair's switching of callsigns (from Maverick to Pilgrim back to Maverick), this could be construed as some sort of running joke... especially since Blair doesn't actually respond to them, and they immediately jump into ranting about whatever's on their mind.

Paladin introduces himself differently: "Och, laddy, take a seat an' tilt a glass with ol' Paladin. I recall once when I was just a lieutenant like yourself there..." (he goes on to tell the anecdote) -- there's no indication that they've never met before; in fact, he seems rather familiar with Blair. As we see in the movie, Paladin is both a special operative *and* a pilot -- he points out that he's served on Tiger's Claw in the past in the movie novel, and presumably could do so again... it's also indicated in the WC3 novel that Paladin *was* an operative before he 'retired'.

Maniac's, though, can only be sarcasm: "Hey, Maverick. I'm Maniac. Glad to meetcha."

2. Bossman didn't die until much later in the game series. Blair was the(now dead)Bossman's replacement in WCM. What was Bossman, Jesus Christ in disguise? Did he suddenly rise up from the grave after a few months? Highly unlikely.

Again, I'll just go ahead and quote myself on this one...

We don't really know Bossman's story, since no source to explain it exists... it's been a source of much discussion over the years, and only one logical story makes sense: Bossman was captured by the Kilrathi. The story behind his 'final' mission in the movie is known, as the Confed handbook includes Angel's letter to his wife... essentially, his fighter was damaged fighting a delaying action and he was killed "instantly" by radiation. Since we know from the other non-movie novels that CO's tend to claim that loved ones were killed in action rather than be captured in letters home, we might guess that that's what has happened here -- Bossman ejected from his damaged fighter and was captured by the Kilrathi. The damaged fighter was then recovered and given to Blair... Angel wrote the letter home claiming he was dead, because the alternative was too horrific.

That's all speculation, though -- it's a story that hasn't been told yet.

3. Paladin was a pilot based out of the tiger's claw in WC1. He was a spy in WCM, who had never flown aboard the 'Claw before arriving, supposedly. (None of the other pilots who were so friendly with him in WC1 seemed to even know of him)

See, this is only a continuity error because you've created the contradictory portion out of thin air - the claim that somehow the movie established that he "had never flown aboard the 'Claw before arriving". In fact, the movie novel has him make reference to having served onboard the 'Claw several times.

4. Paladin was not French. French people don't say "laddy," or "lass," or "bonny," they insult people who do.
I'm aware of the various theories which try to explain this. Doesn't explain why, through the entire game series, he had a scottish accent implied(and executed by John Ryes-Davis), but had a French accent in WCM. If WC1 happened after WCM, why didn't our favorite Scotsman recognize him? Why the sudden change in accents? It's never alluded to in any of the fiction that he knew Blair before the events of WC1. It wasn't to "keep his cover," as all the pilots you meet in WC1 were also in WCM, and knew of Paladin's true rank towards the end.

Since you claim to be aware of the Wing IV novel reference, I will not repeat it. I'll take the more obvious approach: were your complaint truly that the choice of actor for Paladin was wrong and ruined the movie, then you should have given up on Wing Commander in 1994. Two or three lines of French (I swear in French! I'm not French! I lived there for a year! Sorry.) is nothing compared to Paladin's amazing metamorphisis between Wing 2 and 3.

(The old 'Patrick Stewart plays a French captain with a British accent' reference probably also belongs here - though I'm not especially fond of it.)

I doubt someone who had flown alongside Blair for such a battle would say "Ach, hello laddy! I'm Paladin!" when he ran into him again. Nor would Angel, who he had tickled tonsils with at the end of WCM. Talk about cold shoulders, if that was the actual case... Even if ol Pally were hiding his real purpose, Angel wouldn't. Not to mention Hunter, Maniac, or the others for that matter... I'm sure they'd recognize a shipmate from a few months before.
"Hi! I'm Maniac!"
"G'day mate, I'm Hunter!"

I've already replied to this above, but I just feel the need to point out once again that Paladin does not introduce himself in the original Wing Commander. He just asks you to drink with him.

^I forget the exact phrases, but they were along these lines. You fellas keep trying to pound that Yugo tranny into place... Myself, I'd rather toss it aside. It doesn't fit.

Dumb Allegoryville is an interesting place - the people there are so rich and stupid that they throw away cars based entirely upon their own silly whims.

Quite frankly, the explanations haven't been good enough. People aren't accepting them. You can explain them "to death" all you want, but if you're just going to use the same old reasons, people won't change their minds.

My experience has been the very opposite - that an unexpectedly high percentage of people involved in these threads actually end up changing their mind.

(Time also plays a factor - people will bash the newest product until another is made available. Before the movie it was Darkening and before Darkening it was Wing 4... both are generally considered classics now. In another year or two we'll be having "Why didn't they make the Dralthi in Genesis look like the awesome ones in the movie?!" arguments.)

Another interesting side note: there *are* continuity issues in the movie that bother even me - but no one has ever brought them up. It's always the same five complaints over and over and over again...

[size=+1]McDob[/size]

Regarding the original topic, I think the reason we try to fit every piece of WC material into an official continuum is that we have so little of it. It's the opposite problem of something like Star Wars, with tens of thousands of things produced and often contradictory to the point where Lucas had to issue an official canonity guide. Wing Commander, in spite of differences in appearance, has generally had no such problem (apart from maybe the Confederation Handbook ... and even that adds its fair share of interesting tidbits). So it makes sense to consolidate it simply for the sake of having a more fully realized backdrop.

To expand on this, I wholeheartedly believe that despite the firestorm of continuity arguments the Wing Commander movie (or TV show or novels or whatever you've decided you don't like) brings more to the Wing Commander table than it takes away. Having to listen to CoolDude68 complain about how he hates Freddie Prinze Jr. is a worthwhile tradeoff for giving Blair an actual background (or seeing older versions of ships or getting a larger view of the Confederation in the fifties... and so forth.)

 

[Nemesis]

Quite frankly, the explanations haven't been good enough.

How so? Can you really explain what you mean by “good enough”? What would be “good enough” in your view?

 

[Death]

How so? Can you really explain what you mean by “good enough”? What would be “good enough” in your view?

Why, that everyone agree with him, of course.

Cynical, me? Naaaah....

 

[ourchair]

To continue on with your points, after the first game I don't believe we ever hear of the Mopoks again! Wing Commander 2 is obviously, therefore, in a different universe altogether!

Whoa, I don't even remember those guys at all. They must NOT exist!

 

[Col.Dom]

In another year or two we'll be having "Why didn't they make the Dralthi in Genesis look like the awesome ones in the movie?!"

Did you just give something away, here!?

Another interesting side note: there *are* continuity issues in the movie that bother even me - but no one has ever brought them up. It's always the same five complaints over and over and over again...

Like what? The issue of Blair's parents being dead in the WCM but alive in WCATV?


I find it amazing that everyone cries about WCM being "not canon" or an "alternate reality," yet say nothing about the overly-odd S*U*P*E*R Wing Commander.

I've just noticed that people are very picky about what they want to complain about. Another one I find dumb is the "Tolwyn wears a cape in WC2! It looks dumb and weird!" yet make no comment about how equally ridiculous a similar outfit looks on a real-life actor (John-Rhys Davies wears a similar uniform in WC4) as well as the fact that Malcolm McDowell as Tolwyn himself wears a cape again in WC4.

Ah well....

 

[WildWeasel]

Did you just give something away, here!?

I'm not one who's eager to get his hopes up again.

I find it amazing that everyone cries about WCM being "not canon" or an "alternate reality," yet say nothing about the overly-odd S*U*P*E*R Wing Commander.

The movie is a bit more visible and easier to obtain. It's difficult to be critical of a product you've never seen or played.

 

[Col.Dom]

The movie is a bit more visible and easier to obtain. It's difficult to be critical of a product you've never seen or played.

Yeah, that's true....

 

[dextorboot]

No, you and I'd say about 10% of the active posters here aren't accepting them. The rest of us are either happy with them or know its not worth wasting our time arguing about something that is really not going to cause one freakin solitary ripple on the lake of life.

Actually, I fall into both those categories. I don't accept the explanations AND I know it's not worth the time. So, it doesn't bother me.

My experience has been the very opposite - that an unexpectedly high percentage of people involved in these threads actually end up changing their mind.

(Time also plays a factor - people will bash the newest product until another is made available. Before the movie it was Darkening and before Darkening it was Wing 4... both are generally considered classics now. In another year or two we'll be having "Why didn't they make the Dralthi in Genesis look like the awesome ones in the movie?!" arguments.)

Well, I haven't been here as long as you obviously, but I know that my opinions of the series haven't changed much since coming here. Anything that has changed was solely based on the inclusion of things I hadn't seen before (like the cartoon series and a few of the books), not what anyone on the boards ever said.

Something can still be considered a classic with people arguing over continuity issues. And I'll probably be one of the people talking about how cool the Dralthi looked since I actually like the movie.

How so? Can you really explain what you mean by “good enough”? What would be “good enough” in your view?

I mean good enough to convince someone that they're right.

Why, that everyone agree with him, of course.

No, if you've read any of my posts on the forums ever, then you'd know that I'm not like that. I don't feel a need to have people agree with me. As I've said numerous times, I'm simply stating the way I see things. I don't try to get into arguments to sway people to my opinion.

 

[WildWeasel]

The rest of us are either happy with them or know its not worth wasting our time arguing about something that is really not going to cause one freakin solitary ripple on the lake of life.

I like that quote.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

Like what? The issue of Blair's parents being dead in the WCM but alive in WCATV?

Nah, the WCP Guide resolved that fairly easily.

I'm not one who's eager to get his hopes up again.

Yeah, Wing Commander might never play Yahoo pool with you again.

The movie is a bit more visible and easier to obtain. It's difficult to be critical of a product you've never seen or played.

Actually, more copies of Super Wing Commander (Mac & 3DO) were sold than the number of people who saw the movie in theaters. I know why it'd seem like SWC is unknown, though - I'm always surprised when someone casually mentions they've played it... a lot of people who grew up with Macs simply treat it like the original Wing Commander in discussions.

 

[WildWeasel]

Yeah, Wing Commander might never play Yahoo pool with you again.

Yahoo! Pool is great.