Consistency???

The Concordia wasn't obsolete, she was a mess -- she took three torpedo hits at Sirius and Earth and ended the battle crippled.

The five year number for building a new fleet carrier in Wing Commander is correct -- it comes from End Run.
 
Bandit LOAF said:
The Concordia wasn't obsolete, she was a mess -- she took three torpedo hits at Sirius and Earth and ended the battle crippled.

The five year number for building a new fleet carrier in Wing Commander is correct -- it comes from End Run.

Case and point, at most it could have taken maybe a year to fully repair and refit the ship, but why then was it assigned to backwater duty and old given partial repairs?
 
Because the Confederation was desparate for carriers at that particular point in time -- the implication was that the carriers that had been assigned to such duties, like the Victory, were now being moved to the front...
 
Did the Conferation have any other dreadnoughts though? I mean besides the Confed class? Also... whats the defining characteristics of a Dreadnought? A battleship with fighters? A ship too big and powerful to be classified as a carrier? or perhaps a carrier with a really big weapon on the front?
 
Nope, the Confederation Class Dreadnaught was the only one class
the defining characteristics of the dreadnaught was the phase transit cannon. That and it had a nice complement of fighters...about 120
 
Yeah, I suppose. Though it is rather weird that the Confederation only came up w/ one class of Dreadnought... the Kilrathi had at least two... three if you count Snakiers... though im unclear at to what those would be classified as... What about Prince Thrakaths Dreadnought? Did that have a special weapon?
 
Dreadnaught doesn't mean having a super-weapon -- it's just a particular size of ship of the line. False Colors deals with a Hvar'kann-type dreadnaught with some depth, and no special weapons (other than a large missile launcher) appear.

The Kilrathi have at least four ships so classified: the Agon Ra Sivar-type, the Hvar'kann-type, the Sivar-class and the Snakeir-class Superdreadnaught.
 
Well, history tells us time and time again that the outcome of single ship combat has as much to do with whose commanding the ships in question as it does technical specifications.

The Snakeir-class superdreadnaughts have less capital armament: two anti-matter guns, six laser batteries, fourteen torpedo tubes versus eight anti-matter guns, the PTC and an unkjnown number of torpedo tubes. Assuming the two ships were simply next to eachother pounding away, the Confederation-class would have the advantage.

In terms of its fighter wing, the Snakeir-class outdoes the Confederation-class by eighty... and her anti-fighter defenses are far better, sporting 42 single laser turrets to the Concordia's three flak cannons. In a prolongued fighter battle, a Snakeir-class ship is better equipped to strike the enemy and to defend itself.
 
But what about the shielding? Snakiers were built at a time when it didnt exist? I would think that the Phase shields would help...
 
A ship will be shielded according to its era -- a Snakeir in 2665 will have phase shields... and if a Confederation-class ship existed in 2654, it'd have Meson Shields.
 
Bandit LOAF said:
A ship will be shielded according to its era -- a Snakeir in 2665 will have phase shields... and if a Confederation-class ship existed in 2654, it'd have Meson Shields.

Meson... you mean like the Meson gun? So thats what that crappy WC3 gun was used for... i couldnt figure it out.... a shield stripper huh... But if that be the case, then how do you explain the Victory's shielding in WC 3? easy enough to take down.
 
All the shields in WC3 are WC2-style Phase Shields (even on the fighters)... it's just that weapons have gotten better.

"Meson Shields" is the broad term for the pre-WC2 shields (ie, the shields on capital ships in Wing Commander I are 'meson shields').
 
This theory has always bothered me a little. If the weapons have improved that much, they should make extremely short work of a fighter's relatively thin armor after the phase shields have been battered down. How can an unshielded WC2 era ship take as much punishment as a WC1 model if the guns are so much stronger? Some fancy new uber-alloy armor improvement too?
 
McGruff said:
This theory has always bothered me a little. If the weapons have improved that much, they should make extremely short work of a fighter's relatively thin armor after the phase shields have been battered down. How can an unshielded WC2 era ship take as much punishment as a WC1 model if the guns are so much stronger? Some fancy new uber-alloy armor improvement too?

Uh.. yeah.. Durasteel, Tungsten, Isometal, etc.
 
The gun firepower on fighters didn't increase drastically until 2669. If you will observe the shield and armor specs on WC2 fighters, they are roughly the same as those from the WC1 era. In 2669, everything got a massive armor increase, this is due to the weapon power increase.

For example

A laser from 2654 did 1.8 cm of damage. The Meson shields of a capital ship were typically 30/30 cm. So repeated bombardment even by the laser would ensure that eventually it would out-time the recharge rate of the shield and begin to strike the hull.

By 2664, the phase shields were listed as much as 120/120 cm (using the Lexington CV of 2668 as an example). The 1.8 cm damage laser could no longer out-time the recharge rate of the shield, and thus couldn't penetrate it. Capital ships recieved an armor upgrade to protect them against the weapons of other capships, but fighters retained their original protection figures for the most part.

All of the sudden, in 2669, all weapons recieved a massive boost in power. The laser now did 18 cm of damage instead of 1.8 cm, a ten-fold increase (even though the VS manual describes the weapons as doing their old damage rates, we know from the game mechanics of WC3, this just wasn't the case). Everything from fighters to Dreadnoughts recieved large armor and shield boosts. Even still, a Thunderbolt VII with full guns did something like 250 cm of damage / second. A Kilrathi CV with 2000 cm phase shields would have a recharge rate of 200 cm / second (per quadrant). One Thunderbolt VII was able to out-time the shields releatively quickly and cause direct hull damage, a situation that was similar to the WC1 era.

Although, by 2673, phase shields had again improved past the point for fighter weapons (or even most capship guns) to penetrate them.

The one thing I never understood was the KS manual entry for phase shields. It stated (by 2667 I think) that phase shields offered 7,500 cm of protection. Was this for the most powerful installation shields? We certainly don't see any Confed Capships with 7500 cm phase shields and the Kilrathi Dreadnought had 8000 cm.
 
It reminds so much when I was playing Wing Commander Standoff, the shield and armour were so thin, one shot or two and you would lose an entire armour side!

It is interesting that reading all the manual and stats I sometimes think that there is no definite answer to sheild or weapons strength
 
Finally, a chance to make the quote that comes to mind every time I see this thread: "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds." - Emerson.

With that well worn proviso in mind, lets try to dredge up some continuity in the messy world of shield, gun and armor stats.

The gun firepower on fighters didn't increase drastically until 2669. If you will observe the shield and armor specs on WC2 fighters, they are roughly the same as those from the WC1 era. In 2669, everything got a massive armor increase, this is due to the weapon power increase.

For example

A laser from 2654 did 1.8 cm of damage. The Meson shields of a capital ship were typically 30/30 cm. So repeated bombardment even by the laser would ensure that eventually it would out-time the recharge rate of the shield and begin to strike the hull.

Here's the problem: you're reading it wrong... which is to say that you're looking at Victory Streak and reading what should have been written rather than what's actually there.

Rather: there is absolutely no proof that there has ever been a shift in gun values. Victory Streak lists "Penetration: 18" for the Laser Cannon... but defines Penetration as "Armor/shield penetration expressed in tenths of a cm (0.1cm = 1 armor unit)". Rachael Coriolis' claim in her GIF, dated 2669.218, is that the laser cannon does 1.8 cm of damage, not 18 cm.

(Incidentally, 'How do we know they're different? Because they're exactly the same!' is a pretty amusing thought.)

Now, Victory Streak's 'mistake', if there is one (and I'll have that argument if someone wants) is that it calls the values for fighters "cm" instead of armor units.

An Arrow V has '80 cm' of front armor instead of '80 arrmor units'. The latter is how the game physically treats the ship: it has 80 'units' and when they're hit by a laser the game takes away 18 of them.

But clearly stated fiction, whatever its etymology, has met gameplay here, and I have to side with fiction. Even if it was wrong to have done so, Wing Commander III set a clear standard that has been followed ever since - all ships after the middle of 2669 have shield and armor numbers tenfold those before.

By 2664, the phase shields were listed as much as 120/120 cm (using the Lexington CV of 2668 as an example). The 1.8 cm damage laser could no longer out-time the recharge rate of the shield, and thus couldn't penetrate it. Capital ships recieved an armor upgrade to protect them against the weapons of other capships, but fighters retained their original protection figures for the most part.

All of the sudden, in 2669, all weapons recieved a massive boost in power. The laser now did 18 cm of damage instead of 1.8 cm, a ten-fold increase (even though the VS manual describes the weapons as doing their old damage rates, we know from the game mechanics of WC3, this just wasn't the case). Everything from fighters to Dreadnoughts recieved large armor and shield boosts. Even still, a Thunderbolt VII with full guns did something like 250 cm of damage / second. A Kilrathi CV with 2000 cm phase shields would have a recharge rate of 200 cm / second (per quadrant). One Thunderbolt VII was able to out-time the shields releatively quickly and cause direct hull damage, a situation that was similar to the WC1 era.

Although, by 2673, phase shields had again improved past the point for fighter weapons (or even most capship guns) to penetrate them.

First, let me say that I think you're using upgrades as somewhat of a crutch - not necessarily here, but it shows up in a lot of your ideas. We've trotted out "and then they upgraded the fleet!" as explanations for a whole lot of things (changes in capital ship armaments, changes in styles between games, etc.). Frankly, I don't like it - it's the "go hit home runs" style of coaching and it doesn't ever sit right with me. The image of the giant war dying down for a few weeks and everyone going home to bolt new armor onto their ships or to replace one particular turret with a new kind of gun has become somewhat of a farce in my mind.

Anyway, assuming we've established the 2669-shift in armor and shields, then I think the community's old standards for explaning them are just fine. They're wrapped whole cloth in continuity and are as beautiful as anything in their simplicity:

* The WC2 technology, "Phase Shields" is now used on fighters. This is an end-all explanation of shields; I believe it's the Wing Commander IV novel which uses the term phase shields to refer to the type found on fighters.

* Armor is now 10x, 20x or 60x (Plasteel, Tungsten and Isometal, respectively) stronger. This is explained in Privateer - the new armors are multipliers. A centimeter of Tungsten is the same thing as twenty centimeters of Durasteel. A Hornet that's armored with tungsten would, then, theoretically have 60 cm of armor equivalent instead of 3 cm. It hasn't been physically fattened, it is practically the same ship.

Now, the guns... as I said above, we cannot prove that the guns were increased from a fictional standpoint. And here's why: for all we encounter them on a daily level, gameplay mechanics can never win such an argument.

It is all well and good to take some numbers from Wing Commander III's engine and say that the Arrow has 90 'units' of armor instead of 80 cm. But what are these units? The game doesn't specify - it doesn't need to, it's not thinking about such things and it's not trying to let you see how it works.

Furthermore, the game is full of modifiers that make any attempt to compare 'in game' play to a continuous historical model useless - do they really weld on any extra 50 units of armor to Blair's fighter that they don't give anyone else? Do the Kilrathi happen to send extra-shielded fighters against Confed pilots they know are especially good, and lesser-shielded ones against Confed pilots who they know are especially lousy? The game is constantly cheating to make itself fun - taking one uncategorized number and pretending it is the end-all of debate doesn't work!

So... what do we do?

The one thing I never understood was the KS manual entry for phase shields. It stated (by 2667 I think) that phase shields offered 7,500 cm of protection. Was this for the most powerful installation shields? We certainly don't see any Confed Capships with 7500 cm phase shields and the Kilrathi Dreadnought had 8000 cm.

This touches on a very old idea, which was that 'Phase Shields' meant a single number that was so high (or that recharged sof ast) as to be practically invulnerable. The modern view is different, and it's probably best to assume that 7,500 is some kind of scientififc upper bound for phase shields.
 
Now, Victory Streak's 'mistake', if there is one (and I'll have that argument if someone wants) is that it calls the values for fighters "cm" instead of armor units.

An Arrow V has '80 cm' of front armor instead of '80 arrmor units'. The latter is how the game physically treats the ship: it has 80 'units' and when they're hit by a laser the game takes away 18 of them.

I am willing to accept this, it would definitely be easier to explain than giving all weapons a x10 increase in strength. Would this also apply to capships?

For example:
A Ranger class CV would have 3000 au (armor units) shields = 300 cm shields
and 1000/1000/1000/1000 au armor = 100/100/100/100 cm armor

This would mesh alot more with the WC2/Armada/WC4 figures.

First, let me say that I think you're using upgrades as somewhat of a crutch - not necessarily here, but it shows up in a lot of your ideas. We've trotted out "and then they upgraded the fleet!" as explanations for a whole lot of things (changes in capital ship armaments, changes in styles between games, etc.). Frankly, I don't like it - it's the "go hit home runs" style of coaching and it doesn't ever sit right with me. The image of the giant war dying down for a few weeks and everyone going home to bolt new armor onto their ships or to replace one particular turret with a new kind of gun has become somewhat of a farce in my mind.

I agree that whole fleet refits would be not be feasible in a period of constant war. Although, ships returning from the frontlines would probably refit with the latest tech.

Looking at WWII, anytime a ship returned to a homeport they could always expect a new mast addition, or radar, or more AA guns. Sometimes the refits were small, and sometimes not.

Armor is now 10x, 20x or 60x (Plasteel, Tungsten and Isometal, respectively) stronger. This is explained in Privateer - the new armors are multipliers. A centimeter of Tungsten is the same thing as twenty centimeters of Durasteel. A Hornet that's armored with tungsten would, then, theoretically have 60 cm of armor equivalent instead of 3 cm. It hasn't been physically fattened, it is practically the same ship.

This, I have been advocating all along. One would still have to remove 3 cm of durasteel plate and place 3 cm of tungsten on the aforementioned Arrow to get the 60 cm equivalent. Wouldn't this necessitate a refit?

The WC2 technology, "Phase Shields" is now used on fighters. This is an end-all explanation of shields; I believe it's the Wing Commander IV novel which uses the term phase shields to refer to the type found on fighters.

The TCH had established that phase-shields have been on fighters since at least 2654 as opposed to the Meson shields found on the capships. So it would seem that the capships were upgraded to technology that already existed in the fighter force, although AS referenced phase-shields on the Confed Battlefleets of 2634. I guess my real confusion comes from not understanding the difference between phase and meson shields.
 
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