CONFLEET in the timeline...

Dragon1

Dragon1

Rear Admiral
I was just wondering how much info we have on specific Confed fleets. Here is what I've got;

3rd Fleet- Mentioned throughout the series. At one point Tolwyn is in command. It appears to perhaps be based out of Torgo, but I could be wrong.

4th Fleet- Mentioned in the TCH as being based at the Pegasus Fleet Base (Dakota System, Vega Sector???). The Fleet would appear to have been lost during the Pegasus Ambush of 2654. Any further info???

6th Fleet- Another force mentioned in the TCH. The handbook states that the fleet is based out of the Icarus Fleet Base (twin to the Pegasus). We find out that the 6th Fleet is destroyed (perhaps even twice) in the Midgard system, Deneb Sector (later known as the Epsilon Sector).

7th Fleet- Primary fleet at McAuliffe during the 2634 attack.

8th Fleet- Gemini sector fleet, based at Perry TCN base.

14th Fleet- Enigma sector fleet. RADM Tolwyn was in command from at least 2665 to 2668.

The Kilrathi fleets I am totally ignorant on....would someone be willing to list?
 
Dragon1 said:
6th Fleet- Another force mentioned in the TCH. The handbook states that the fleet is based out of the Icarus Fleet Base (twin to the Pegasus). We find out that the 6th Fleet is destroyed (perhaps even twice) in the Midgard system, Deneb Sector (later known as the Epsilon Sector).
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I think the "second" destruction of the 6th Fleet mentioned in Privateer is supposed to simply be a very delayed reaction to its original destruction, which Confed presumably kept classified... though why and how they would have managed to keep it classifed during the truce is beyond me).

However, if we assume that the Privateer rumours do not in fact refer to the same event, then I guess the second destruction would have taken place in Gemini's Midgard system, not Deneb's - otherwise, the bartenders would have talked about the fleet being destroyed in Deneb rather than in Midgard.
 
several kilrathi fleets are mentioned in AS....IIRC 3rd, 5th and 7th. The 1st fleet is the one in orbit around kilrah and heavily destroyed during the battle of vukar tag. that's the ones just off the top of my head though...
 
3rd Fleet- Mentioned throughout the series. At one point Tolwyn is in command. It appears to perhaps be based out of Torgo, but I could be wrong.
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The Third Fleet was the 'main' Confederation fleet. Admiral Banbridge commanded it for the bulk of the war, and his protege Tolwyn took over after his death. Tolwyn didn't stay as head of the Third Fleet, though, and it's unknown what he was formally in command of at Torgo.

We we see the Third Fleet in two places: as the unit put together for the Earth Defense Campaign (FA), and then massing as Confed's reaction to the Border Worlds situation in the Masa System (TPoF).

4th Fleet- Mentioned in the TCH as being based at the Pegasus Fleet Base (Dakota System, Vega Sector???). The Fleet would appear to have been lost during the Pegasus Ambush of 2654. Any further info???
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Your location is correct, Pegasus was in the Dakota System. We see four Concordia-class SuperCruisers and two Bengal-class carriers in their berths at the start of the movie, plus the Concordia-class TCS Vanguard leaving the base. These ships include the TCS Iowa, TCS Kobi and the TCS McClellan.

6th Fleet- Another force mentioned in the TCH. The handbook states that the fleet is based out of the Icarus Fleet Base (twin to the Pegasus). We find out that the 6th Fleet is destroyed (perhaps even twice) in the Midgard system, Deneb Sector (later known as the Epsilon Sector).
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I don't recall a reference to the Sixth Fleet being at Icarus - I know the TCH created Icarus, but I can't seem to find the reference. Do you have that?

8th Fleet- Gemini sector fleet, based at Perry TCN base.
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This one is conjecture, we're never told about an 8th Fleet.

14th Fleet- Enigma sector fleet. RADM Tolwyn was in command from at least 2665 to 2668.
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2654 to 2667 at least, based on the Wing Commander movie novelization (and 2667 instead of 2668 because the Concordia was part of a Task Force group and then the 3rd Fleet in Fleet Action).

The Kilrathi fleets I am totally ignorant on....would someone be willing to list?
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* End Run mentions the 'Home Fleet' as being the Emperor's personal force and the 'Third Fleet' as being the force in the Enigma Sector.

* Action Stations mentions the Second, Fifth and Sixth Claw Fleets. The Fifth and Sixth fleets attack Etruria and the Landreich, respectively. The Second Fleet, which includes eight battleships, six carriers and twelve cruisers, attacks McAuliffe. The First Fleet of the Claw is mentioned as being the Emperor's personal reserve.

* The Sixth Fleet of the Claw is seen in the Gemini Sector in Righteous Fire, commanded by Kahl.

* The fleet assembled to attack Earth in Wing Commander III is referred to as the 'Grand Fleet'.

Fleet Action's attack on Earth involves four fleets:
* First Fleet of the Claw: Three old-style carriers, kept in reserve.
* Second Fleet of the Claw: Four old-style carriers, attacked Earth.
* Fourth Fleet of the Claw: Three old-style carriers, attacked the Landreich.
* Fifth Fleet of the Claw: Five Hakaga-class carriers, attacked Earth.
 
I don't recall a reference to the Sixth Fleet being at Icarus - I know the TCH created Icarus, but I can't seem to find the reference. Do you have that?
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For the life of me, I remember seeing it. I guess it could have been something I saw on some fansite, but I am pretty sure it is in the TCH. I will look through it again.

Do we have any info on the 7th Confed Fleet?
 
For the life of me, I remember seeing it. I guess it could have been something I saw on some fansite, but I am pretty sure it is in the TCH. I will look through it again.
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It sounds familiar to me, but I can't place it. It's not in the Pegasus article which introduces Icarus, at least.

Do we have any info on the 7th Confed Fleet?
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It's what you said, the fleet based at Alexandria that was annihilated in the Ambush. Included the battleships Belarus, Gibraltar and Malta, the carriers Antilles, Concordia and Soryu and the heavy carrier Coral Sea.
 
Speaking of earlier fleets,

We have previously discussed how a pre-War fleet included 10 BBs and 3 CVs. We have identified the Ranger, Coral Sea, and Bengal class carriers as all being pre-war. The Ranger was a "Light Carrier", the Coral Sea was a "Heavy Carrier" and the Bengal was a "Utility or Strike Carrier".

The Concordia class "Fleet Carrier" began coming online during the outset of the war. Was there an older "Fleet Carrier" type that the Concordia was specifically replacing? We hear of old carriers like the TCS Antilles (AS), the Foster (TCH), the Harrison (TCH). Could these have been ships of that older class?
 
We have previously discussed how a pre-War fleet included 10 BBs and 3 CVs. We have identified the Ranger, Coral Sea, and Bengal class carriers as all being pre-war. The Ranger was a "Light Carrier", the Coral Sea was a "Heavy Carrier" and the Bengal was a "Utility or Strike Carrier".

The Concordia class "Fleet Carrier" began coming online during the outset of the war. Was there an older "Fleet Carrier" type that the Concordia was specifically replacing? We hear of old carriers like the TCS Antilles (AS), the Foster (TCH), the Harrison (TCH). Could these have been ships of that older class?
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Yes, the suggestion has always been that there's at least one other type of 'fleet' carrier (whatever class the TCS Soryu is). TCH also references the 'Patrol Carrier' Horus.

(That said, the idea that ships are necessarily *replacing* eachother never sits well with me -- just because we've never actually seen it happen. New games have new destroyers, but the suggestion is usually that they all operate simultaneously -- a fleet that's desperate for ships at any given moment probably wouldn't be decomissioning ships based only on class.)
 
Good point LOAF

I plan on updating my Carrier doc for the new *old* fleet carrier. I plan to add the carriers that Arnold Blair served on.
 
Action Stations implies that it's quite old.

The thing to remember in all of this is that we really don't know anything, as all of these carriers are mentioned only once. The logical analysis is that each time a carrier is called something different (patrol carrier, carrier, heavy carrier, training carrier) that the intention is for it to represent a different kind of ship.
 
In my on-going quest to find a reference for the Confed 6th Fleet in the TCH (I fear my efforts may be doomed), I came across something of greater interest.

The Kilrathi war machine prior to the Vega Campaign of 2654 seemed to be based primarily around Sivar class Dreadnoughts and Snakier class Super Dreadnoughts, with the first Terran type CV (also the Snakier class), not coming into service until late 2654.

The shocking thing is that it was stated that there were over 700 Sivar class Dreadnoughts in service, and that each had a fighter complement of 150 combat spacecraft. That's 105,000 fighters just in that one class of ship! Confed could not have fielded any more than 50 carriers of all types with the largest having a fighter complement of 200.

My question really is what kept the Kilrathi from completely dominating the Terran Confederation at this time? We know that by the 2260s, the Kilrathi's fleet is comparable to Confed's. What happened to all of those Dreadnoughts? They couldn't have all been lost!
 
Dragon1 said:
My question really is what kept the Kilrathi from completely dominating the Terran Confederation at this time? We know that by the 2260s, the Kilrathi's fleet is comparable to Confed's. What happened to all of those Dreadnoughts? They couldn't have all been lost!
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It's a very good question. When I first got my hands on the Confed Handbook, I found those numbers more disturbing than any of the Pilgrim stuff :p.

There is a reasonable explanation, though. Two of them, even:
- It takes a huge amount of time to make so many ships, not to mention the fighters. I don't remember the details from the Handbook, but I think it's safe to assume that these ships are all pre-war... and that means their 100,000 fighters are, too. And as you know, before the war, there was no such thing as torpedo bombers. So, we can assume that most dreadnoughts carried a relatively outdated fighter compliment, without torpedo bombers. The Kilrathi would be working on this... but 100,000 ships is a lot to produce ;). So, one-on-one, a Confed carrier would probably have a huge advantage over a dreadnought. Heck, let's go one step further - once the new type of phase shielding appeared some time between 2654 and 2664, we can imagine that even a single Gilgamesh could take on a Kilrathi dreadnought without risking much damage... because the Gilgameshes carried new shielding, while the dreadnoughts, again, were far too numerous to quickly upgrade.

- The second thing is... what about the Confed fleet? It doesn't have that many carriers... but this is because prior to 2634, carriers were a second-tier ship. There was no need for a large carrier fleet. However, Confed had other ships, too. We don't know how many battleships Confed had, for example. I can't imagine them having 700 of such ships (if they did, the losses at McAuliffe wouldn't have had any significance), but I think we need to assume that large capital ships in the Confed fleet were also counted in hundreds.
 
There's a *lot* going on that we don't see. The number of casualties in the Prophecy Guide is obscenely high - 2.1 trillion humans dead must mean there's a lot of fighting going on that doesn't involve the thin blue line of carriers. Privateer talks about the Confederation losing hundreds of fighters a day.

And consider the sheer size of the Confederation and the Empire - thousands of star systems, all of which presumably have to be defended in some manner at all times (and many of which are presumably constantly contested even when Blair isn't around). Plus, the Kilrathi run a slave empire - they need forces to keep order at home. This was something that was just accepted as part of their background in earlier games; no one thought it odd at all that the WC2 manual mentions assuming the Kilrathi had more Sivar [SM1] class ships that just hadn't been seen in combat against the Confederation.
 
Would it be too much to assume that while Confed may have typically operated between 15-50 fleet carriers, some 20-60 battleships (up to perhaps 2654/2660), and later maybe 3 dreadnoughts; the Super Cruiser and Cruiser fleets could have numbered into the hundreds?

Any idea if there was a class of Super Cruisers prior to the Concordia class Super Cruisers?
 
You say potato, I say potato -- the SuperCruiser is in both concept and role exactly the same thing as the Battleships from Action Stations.
 
Didn't the Super Cruisers maintain a fighter complement and a large torpedo battery? Something the BBs of AS didn't have.

Also, my notion of what made a BB was the heavy plasma battery. The Plasma Guns would batter the opponent shields down. When the shields came down, a salvo of CSMs would be launched to buckle the hull.

The concept of the Super Cruiser, built around AMGs seemed to be a faster and more flexible than the BBs of old. Think the Battleship / Battle Cruiser differences of the naval fleets of WWI.

If there were pre-War Super Cruisers (assuming that they were distinct from BBs) perhaps they had a fast-scouting role, like the Battle Cruisers of the British Grand Fleet or the German High Seas Fleet.
 
Another thought....

We know that Kilrathi fighters are typically much lighter that their Confed equivalents. Maybe the kill ratio was like 12:1 or even 20:1. This might also explain why we are told the Kilrathi, at first near suicidal, suddenly became far less agressive in their tactics after the first 10-15 years of the war.
 
Dragon1 said:
The concept of the Super Cruiser, built around AMGs seemed to be a faster and more flexible than the BBs of old. Think the Battleship / Battle Cruiser differences of the naval fleets of WWI.

If there were pre-War Super Cruisers (assuming that they were distinct from BBs) perhaps they had a fast-scouting role, like the Battle Cruisers of the British Grand Fleet or the German High Seas Fleet.
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Well, you have to remember that the Battle Cruiser is very bound up in World War I in general (and Admiral Jacky Fisher in particular) ... the battlecruiser was really conceived simply as a next-generation cruiser, and it was Fisher who decided to make it an eggshell with hammers. After Jutland what most people called battlecruisers would probably have been considered fast battleships during WWII - the Hood had protection on a par with the Queen Elizabeth battleships. So the line between Battle Cruiser and Battleship (and for that matter, Supercruiser) isn't necessarily very thick (or existant).
 
I was just going off the fact that the Concordia class is called a Super Cruiser, not a Battleship. Thus, it probably has a different role than a battleship. I had speculated that the Super Cruiser role may have been similar to that of the Battle Cruiser during the WWI naval era, but who really knows.
 
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