CAS in Wing Commander world

[Kret]

Good day to everyone.

I was rethinking the idea of combat tactics used in Wing Commander saga the other day. They seem to be similar to modern air support in many respects (including commands and radio communication), even on a macroscale (tactical groups concentrated around carrier).

If we assume that there are troops transports, attacks carried by marines on planet surfaces and large bases etc. - then one could start to wonder why there is no CAS (or CSS - Combat Space Suppor) missions for them.

There are obviously escort missions for troop carriers, but they represent attack forces as easy target in space. Wing Commander does not tell much about their efforts on the ground - and why they are left alone.

Would You have any particular vision of direct space/air support operation to ground forces in Wing Commander? Or maybe I missed some game that dealt with this topic?

My best regards

Kret

 

[Mancubus]

IN WC4 Circe series (not available in PS version AFAIK) you have a mission when you have to stop the tank offensive. The main point, though is that most WC games didn't support the planetary environment.

 

[Jason_Ryock]

This topic is better dealt with in the books, specifically in End Run, in which the Tarawa and another CVE whose name I am forgetting provide Close Air Support to a group of marines operating on the planets surface.

For a majority of the battle the fighters in question are operating in the atmosphere.

But I would point out something else: space occupies 99.999% of the known universe. Land with buildings and units on it, and planets, moons, planetoids, comets, and asteroids that can be built on are relatively quite small when compared with the vastness of space - it's much more likely a ship will be operating in the much larger area, wouldn't you agree?

 

[NinjaLA]

I spend an oddly large amount of time thinking on this subject. Maybe it's the strategy gamer in me, but I like to think of the war at large instead of individual engagements.

Wing Commander has always had a scale problem in my mind. According to star*soldier and the prophecy manual the total casualties for both sides in the war are nearly 4 trillion to combat alone (not including the 5 trillion kilrathi who committed suicide after the war). Thats a number that leads me to believe that 100 or more earth like worlds simply ceased to be during the multi-decade war.

Now, in a war where either side had at most 20-30 carriers and some number of escort carriers at any given time, it is hard to imagine that they spent a lot of time supporting ground assaults, which *has* to be where all the casualties came into play. In my mind, cruisers play the biggest role here, we have no idea how many cruisers and destroyers were built, but in my head there are always hundreds of ships supporting a ground assault, continually bombarding from orbit, and engaging the other side's cruisers in massive battles for years at a time. while millions of marines are landed and supported by tens of thousands of broadswords and other assault craft... etc...

its no wonder the missions we play in wing commander from carriers are always behind enemy lines during recon missions. I really think that is what space carriers were designed to do. provide intel and damage production capacity where ever it can.

 

[Kret]

Jason, I tend to disagree. Void itself is nothing to fight for. In the last stage of all assaults, soldiers were deployed to physically take over the area (except jump points). Orbital bombing would not always be a measure precise enough to support their efforts.

NinjaLA, this is an interesting concept. I am however afraid that many Wing Commander stories copy the successful scheme (as in the case of Star Wars fiction, particularly non-fan fiction). The scheme here is that we have a carrier with not-always-so-experienced crew and lacking proper escort, facing much bigger forces behind enemy lines and trying to slow them down to allow main forces to regroup. This is a nice hero story, catching the imagination, helping the game or book to sell itself (everyone wants to be a hero). But I do not buy it as reasonable tactics.

Assume Concordia class starship was at the time one of the most sophisticated weapons, a true masterpiece in the art of starshipbuilding.

Would You use this weapon alone, without battle group or even escort, to recon behind enemy lines?

The mere fact it was able to get out of such situation does not in my opinion defines it as a tool for that.

But even if they did - how a small group of Marines (after all, a carrier's personnel, or at least stationing unit) could be left alone during any assault (except perhaps self-sustaining biospheres like space stations).

Best regards

Kret

 

[Drifter]

The void of space itself isn’t worth fighting over but trade lanes, jump points, and resources like asteroid belts, space stations, and shipyards are worth controlling. If the United States found a cheap free alternative fuel today we would still have carrier groups in the Middle East because it’s still a major sea-lane.
I also think WC has too much focus on "the hero story" of a lone carrier blah blah blah... but I think thats a lot of movies and games have that problem.
A mission to escort of a cruiser or destroyer doing planetary bombardment would have been nice and kinda cool looking too.

 

[Jason_Ryock]

Jason, I tend to disagree. Void itself is nothing to fight for.

I seem to have misrepresented my position here.

The point isn't that Void is something to fight over, strategic importance of things like jump points non withstanding.

The point is: if Void is 99% of the environment you're operating it, 99% of your combat is going to occur in the Void, or at least a much much much much larger share then will occur on or near a planet or planetoid.

 

[NinjaLA]

Concordia was part of a battle group in Wc2, you just never really get to see her escorts (they are mentioned in the text a few times) not to mention that she was constantly in trouble, so it appears that the confederation does do exactly that. Their best and brightest ships are constantly outnumbered and in the worst of situations. Its a testament to the crews of these ships that they survive at all.

The single most important duty clearly goes to the most important ships. It is imperative that the confederation knows where the enemy is gathering, or focusing it's strength at any time. and it never hurts to have visual confirmation of those movements instead of rumors and communication intercepts.

We hear about carriers dying all the time in the manuals and books and even in the games. The claw dies because it takes on a major production starbase pretty much unsupported. Even then, it only gets sunk because of a few stealth fighters. And the claw was 'the best ship in the fleet' according to Blair.

I have to pick apart the idea that Wing Commander copied anything from the Star Wars extended universe. I used to love those books, and as I recall, most of them came out after wing commander 1 and 2, not the other way around. The big series of the time was the polar opposite of Wing Commander carrier ops. The Thrawn Trilogy deals with fleet tactics.. not CAS missions.

 

[ELTEE]

In my mind, cruisers play the biggest role here, we have no idea how many cruisers and destroyers were built, but in my head there are always hundreds of ships supporting a ground assault, continually bombarding from orbit, and engaging the other side's cruisers in massive battles for years at a time. \.

I agree with this completely. Carriers steal all the media attention because they're glamerous, while the cruisers, destroyers, corvettes, etc. are fighting in the trenches. It makes me want to learn more about their tactics, struggles, and triumphs. Maybe there are supercruisers and old battlecruisers left over from before the carrier came to prevalence still fighting these battles.

Then again, maybe there are that many more carriers out there that we don't know about. The possibilities are endless.

 

[ChrisReid]

I agree with this completely. Carriers steal all the media attention because they're glamerous, while the cruisers, destroyers, corvettes, etc. are fighting in the trenches. It makes me want to learn more about their tactics, struggles, and triumphs. Maybe there are supercruisers and old battlecruisers left over from before the carrier came to prevalence still fighting these battles.

Then again, maybe there are that many more carriers out there that we don't know about. The possibilities are endless.

You're pretty on track there. We often hear that smaller to medium size warships make up the bulk of the fighting forces on both sides. While there's maybe tens of carriers in existence on each side at any given time, there are references to thousands of cruisers and destroyers. And this probably makes sense, as the war is raging on in potentially hundreds of star systems. There's a lot of space out there (and there were trillions of casualties during the war). We so often see destroyers and cruisers with limited fighter wings too, so the seemingly imbalanced carrier/cruiser ratio might not be that odd.

 

[RogueBanshee]

NinjaLA, this is an interesting concept. I am however afraid that many Wing Commander stories copy the successful scheme (as in the case of Star Wars fiction, particularly non-fan fiction). The scheme here is that we have a carrier with not-always-so-experienced crew and lacking proper escort, facing much bigger forces behind enemy lines and trying to slow them down to allow main forces to regroup. This is a nice hero story, catching the imagination, helping the game or book to sell itself (everyone wants to be a hero). But I do not buy it as reasonable tactics.

Ok I'm just curious about which SW stories involve lone carriers stalling the enemy for time? The only lone carrier stories I remember off the top of my head are Night Caller (Which was on an undercover intel mission and was not a front line ship in the fleet it originally belonged to and was part of a fleet the few times we see it sent sent to the front.) and Sungrass which was supposed to be a pirate carrier not a military carrier.

 

[Jason_Ryock]

Ok I'm just curious about which SW stories involve lone carriers stalling the enemy for time? The only lone carrier stories I remember off the top of my head are Night Caller (Which was on an undercover intel mission and was not a front line ship in the fleet it originally belonged to and was part of a fleet the few times we see it sent sent to the front.) and Sungrass which was supposed to be a pirate carrier not a military carrier.

Well there's the Rejuvenator for one, and the Battle of Helska. The Ralroost on multiple occasions, for another. The Indomitable, for a third, at the Battle of ILC-905. The Flurry comes to mind as the best example, as that was a true carrier, lost with all hands at the Battle of Bakura.

(Respectivly, the ships above are a Star Destroyer, Bothan Assault Cruiser, Majestic-class, and a Quasar Fire-class.)

One could argue that the Mon Remonda served in this capacity, though again the arguability of it being a true 'carrier' in the WC sense of the word comes into play here. But it was frequently going toe to toe with Imperial vessels - including once I believe in a solo engagement with the Iron Fist (SSD). There's also the Lusankya during the Battle of Borleias. That one was quite epic, in fact, despite the fact that it was a Super Star Destroyer.

And let's not forget the Errant Venture on numerous occasions, or the Freedom before that, at the battle of Thyferra, as the only 'true' capital ship deployed by the Rebel Forces in the fight, unless you count the Valiant which alone again as a capital ship distinguished itself in the Battle of the Graveyard. The Allegience as well, in the Battle of Adumar.

The last one I would list is the Quenfis (A Nebulon-B Frigate). Though that ship is not a carrier in the Expanded Universe it is most often used as such, especially in the X-Wing series of games.

The issue as I see it is that the Star Wars universe does not use Carriers as the Wing Commander universe does. Rather, all ships are carriers to one degree or another, with dedicated carriers being rare, and by necessity, some what unnecessary. Why carry around 300 fighters for a fleet when every ship is capable of carrying around three dozen of it's own? The Majestic-class cruiser for example is able to field an entire squadron of K-Wings supported by something like three squadrons of X-Wings. A carrier is a bit redundant at that point.

Possibly the only Star Wars use of a dedicated carrier in fleet combat that we see is probably in the Battle of Bakura, with the Flurry, the situation from Star Wars that best fits the circumstances mentioned above. I do think that Star Destroyers should be considered carriers, though. They carry six squadrons (an Imperial Wing, at 12 fighters per squadron) to the Mon Calamari Cruiser's 3 Squadrons, and frequently operate with their fighters primarily. Nebulon-B frigates are escort-type carriers, for sure. That's the role that they were designed to operate in.

There are things like the Endurance-class Fleet Carrier, but they are so rarely seen and deployed.

One of my biggest complaints about the Star Wars universe is the random reinvention of new capital ships in EVERY novel that fulfill the same role as a new reinvented capital ship from the previous book.

As much as people disagree over some of the continuity of the WC universe and how little we know, it's remarkable how much better it all fits together then something like Star Wars, which allegedly has an entire company devoted to nothing but making sure licensed products fit within the established universe. WC had none of that, and I think, turned our fairly well.