BWS status
- Thread starter frostytheplebe
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frostytheplebe
Seventh Part of the Seal
Just give it up man...
RogueBanshee
Rear Admiral
If you have any actual proof that I'm wrong please show it to me. Actually I was wrong on one point, the Border Worlds probably had organized forces prior to the Project's raids or Confed wouldn't have accused them of the raids. Also the fact that Confed was selling them ships prior to the raids, and whether or not the Delphi/Intrepid was one of them doesn't make a difference, also means that the Border Worlds had military forces seperate from Confed. I can't think of a military that sells hardware to a seperate branch of it's own forces.
As a matter of fact they couldn't build ANY zeppelins until very recently. Saw something on the History channel a while back about a new zepp under construction though.
And as Dundradal said, you can't leave something you were never part of, and RogueBanshee your stuff isn't even making sense.
Dundradal
Frog Blast the Vent Core!
See every post in this thread not by you.
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
You need to re-read the segment, they aren't talking about the attack (which they had already covered earlier in their conversation) - they're talking about where Blair went after he defected. It's the idea that the Border Worlds are organizing a military with a force-projection capability that Paladin knows will bother the Senate.
You are confused about the nature of the conflict; it is not some simple case of a 'pro-war party' (?!) putting down a group of hapless innocents. It is not some simple legal argument - watch the other half of the video you're referencing (it's an ancient "legal" argument that breaks down into de facto versus de jure -- good look solving that one.)
Until 2673 the systems that made up the Union of Border Worlds considered themselves to be part of the Terran Confederation. We fly in a number of them in the earlier games, defending the Confederation. These systems were the most recent colonies established by Confederation worlds and both considered themselves to be and were considered to be part of the Confederation -- think the American colonies being part of the British Empire before 1776.
In 2673 they declared independence from the Confederation and formed a new star nation, claiming a number of grievences and the same legal authority any secession movement endows itself with. As an aside, this is all somewhat similar to the argument put forth by the Southern Confederacy -- that the Union a club and that they would not have joined had they known they could not leave.
Note that this is not some innocent decision on the part of well-spirited colonials - it is part of Tolwyn's master plan. He has, here through his poor treatement, manipulated the Border Worlds into forming an independence movement in the same way that he has manipulated the Confederation into viewing the colonies as their enemy.
It should also be noted that the Border Worlders themselves are not some gang of fuzzy innocents... they fall for Tolwyn's trap time and again and are goaded into fighting a "preventive" offensive war that kills all sorts of civilians while they should have been building support for their cause.
(I don't know where the 'pro-war' party idea comes from. It's all Tolwyn playing both sides - that's the entire story of the game. By their very nature any political party will sell themselves as being against the idea of war... and all of them will support it when it looms.)
The *Terran Confederation*'s military, for one, which required that Flash's Home Defense squadron buy their own fighters and equipment (this is something that's fairly common - many countries go so far as to require that soldiers buy their own uniforms...)
It's also *not* especially telling, as Blair may be referring to weapons sold to the various independent colonies (such as the Landreich... which is, as you know, buying ships...)
RogueBanshee
Rear Admiral
Part of the debates that are going on during WCIV is whether or not the Border Worlds are really part of Confed, or if they're independent planets that were allied with Confed like The Free Republic of Landreich was. Given the final results it's pretty clear which side won.
This thread is getting to the point where I can't tell what's going on.
IQ...failing...can't UNDERSTAND
WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED. This conversation has killed my recollection of what happened in WCIV(granted its been like ten years since I played the game.) Tolwyn=Bad is all I can remember now.
IQ...failing...can't UNDERSTAND
WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED. This conversation has killed my recollection of what happened in WCIV(granted its been like ten years since I played the game.) Tolwyn=Bad is all I can remember now.
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
Ugh, don't do this, it won't end well.
We know the answer to this question, we see the specific point in Wing COmmander IV when the Border Worlds declare independence (the news broadcast where Barbara interviews Tolwyn - it's the first news story.) Before this point they were part of the Confederation.
The Landreich is a completely different cake. It declared independence in the early 2650s and had been recognized as a separate star nation by the Confederation for nearly twenty years at the start of Wing Commander IV.
Dundradal
Frog Blast the Vent Core!
That makes absolutely no sense. Stop before you hurt yourself.
RogueBanshee
Rear Admiral
It started as a discussion of the diplomatic situation between Confed and the UBW after the events of WCIV, then moved to a discussion of the Intrepid and how and why Confed got it back, then moved to a discussion of whether or not the UBW planets were legally part of Confed or if they were legally independent planets allied with Confed.
I feel that the WCIV novelization makes it clear that legally they were independent planets allied with Confed. Others disagree.
In response to Bandit Loaf IMO the novelization does a much better job of explaining the politcal stituation then the game does, and IIRC you fight UBW forces prior to the broadcast. If so they clearly existed before the broadcast.
I feel that the WCIV novelization makes it clear that legally they were independent planets allied with Confed. Others disagree.
In response to Bandit Loaf IMO the novelization does a much better job of explaining the politcal stituation then the game does, and IIRC you fight UBW forces prior to the broadcast. If so they clearly existed before the broadcast.
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
There's no "I feel" in arguing facts. I had a big post where I cited things and talked about legal precedents and all kinds of interesting and thoughtful things and your response is that you *feel* something? I can't say this loudly enough: UGH.
RogueBanshee
Rear Admiral
And I pointed out the difference between UBW, and the CSA. The states that tried to found the CSA had legally joined the United States, and signed the US Constitution.
From what the WC IV novel stated the planets that formed the UBW never legally joind Confed and had never signed the Articles of Confederation.
The closest thing we have to evidence to the contary is the wording of one news story from the game, unless the actual declaration was printed somewhere. The news report could easily be biased especially considering that Confed still hadn't restored freedom of the press. And I just doublechecked the Encyclopedia, it clearly states that freedom of the press was not restored until after the motion to declare war on the UBW was defeated. It's part of the entry for Day 231 of 2673 in case anyone else wants to confirm the last part.
From what the WC IV novel stated the planets that formed the UBW never legally joind Confed and had never signed the Articles of Confederation.
The closest thing we have to evidence to the contary is the wording of one news story from the game, unless the actual declaration was printed somewhere. The news report could easily be biased especially considering that Confed still hadn't restored freedom of the press. And I just doublechecked the Encyclopedia, it clearly states that freedom of the press was not restored until after the motion to declare war on the UBW was defeated. It's part of the entry for Day 231 of 2673 in case anyone else wants to confirm the last part.
Dundradal
Frog Blast the Vent Core!
Yet it felt the need to declare independence?
AD
Finder of things, Doer of stuff
Apparently you do not RC.
Before the broadcast, the only boarder worlds ships you encounder are space fighters. There's some Banshees defending the Tyr Seven and Vindicators flying near the ground. Most likely these are all militia ships that are there specifically to defend local airspace from pirates and raiders. There's also some Avengers defending a Confed space lab that they all the sudden decided was their own when then decided to become independant. They probably figured it should be theirs because it was in their territory but obviously confed felt otherwise. These a most likely no different in situation than any of the other fighters. Beyond that we see absolutely *NO* UBW ships at all. It's only imediately after the announcement and tolwyn stating they have to fly under escort that we see a pair of borderworlds transports.
Just for contrast though I will point out SC_2170A.vob. Wilford states that they are undertaking fleet actions in two systems - Speradon and Circe. Speradon is apparently in the borderworlds region but doesn't become part of the Union of Borderworlds. There's a confed shipyard there as well. Wilford says that in Circe they are assisting the legitimate borderworlds government (indicating that they *know* their space fleet is illigitimate...illegal even). In both cases when the intrepid jumps into these systems (at least on the DVD version which replaces the shipyard cutscene with one of the intrepid meeting the fleet) the intrepid rendezvous with three borderworlds capships (in each case they are also the same type of ships too... two Tallahassee class cruisers and a Southhampton class destroyer) In the case of Circe the wording of the briefing can be interpreted to mean that the capships actually belong to the Circe system government rather than the UBW forces that the intrepid is supposedly part of.
Interestingly whichever system you go to is the one Wilford will be in Commanding suggesting that rather than there being two fleets of three ships that there is only one fleet of three ships that Wilford is commanding and takes to whichever system you decide to go to. Still, there's no carriers in that lot.
(the first two pictures are the Circe fleet and the third is from Speradon)
Attachments
RogueBanshee
Rear Admiral
We know that they formed the UBW, without the actual text of the declaretion we don't know exactly what they said. They could have said that they were leaving Confed and forming the UBW, or they could have said that they were already independent, they were forming the UBW, and Confed needed to leave them alone and stop attacking their forces, either way the message could be treated as a declaretion of independence. However one would mean that they were leaving Confed to become independent, and the other would be reminding Confed that they were already independent.
And the press was being controlled by the Confed government so they can't be treated as unbiased.
frostytheplebe
Seventh Part of the Seal
Well we do know that they have at least one other carrier BWS Tango. The three cruisers we see indicate that they had at least 4 cruisers considering you had to destroy one during that convoy raid mission. Then they get a 3rd carrier (TCS Princeton) which I don't know if they ever actually got to use.
I'm willing to bet they got those cruisers either loaned to them from Landreich, or they could have stolen them. Like when they declared thier independence, they raided the local shipyards and swiped the capships. Sadly we don't really know how they got them, probably had to return them after though.
Dundradal
Frog Blast the Vent Core!
Are you some kind of UBW sympathizer or something? I'm not sure what you don't get. Your argument is baseless and without merit and it's obvious you can't read as several of us have tried time and time again to inform you. It's pretty god damn clear from the sources we have you are wrong, so give it up. This thread was alright but your stupidity has made it suck. Screw you, I'm out.
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
It doesn't for you, though - my explanation of the political situation (ignored above) is exactly that which was presented in the novel (de facto versus de jure membership in the Confederation.) It comes from Blair's discussion with Paulsen over the situation.
I would strongly suggest rereading the novel and replaying the game - the things you are repeating have no basis in either source. An excellent example would be the newscast that you're now foaming about*. In actual fact, it *does* confirm that the seceding planets considered themselves part of the Confederation until they formed their Union (which happens during the game's Masa series, for those keeping track): "The Union of Border Worlds, as they now call themselves, indicate they remain at peace with the Confederation, but that Confed by-laws and constitution no longer govern them."
* - but just as a general rule, an excellent time to 'self check' yourself in this or any argument is when you find yourself in the position of trying to find basis for an elaborate explanation as to why something directly stated in the game could be wrong ('Maybe... there wasn't freedom of the press... so... the newscast was lying... and the Border Worlds did exist for years before this! Yeah! That's the ticket!' is a good example of what I'm talking about.)
Independence for the Union of Border Worlds is not a simple cut-and-dried "legal" matter - the argument put forth by Paulsen (in the novel) and Maniac (in the game) and others has just as much merit as the opposition. Let us consider, for a moment, the Dakota System -- home to an agricultural planet and one of the most important strategic jump points in human space (as well as, for a time, a major fleet base.) Dakota, per the Universe Map, was one of the systems which joined the Union of Border Worlds.
Now, do you remember flying at Dakota? The Tiger's Claw served there during the Vega Campaign, fending off a Kilrathi invasion and covering a large scale medical operation to deal with an outbreak of Watson's Disease. Vaccine transports were brought in from other systems and hospital ships were escorted out for treatment on more advanced planets.
Why? Because a *Confederation* colony was being threatened... and so the infrastructure of the *Confederation* went into motion to protect it, in both the martial and the civil senses. The map included with Wing Commander I will confirm Dakota's alliance, but you don't need it - you knew who you were fighting for in 2654. Confederation credits, lives and efforts were traded to help save the system from threats both domestic and foreign.
Now, Dakota didn't sign the Articles of Confederation, Confed's constitution -- instead, it was an agricultural colony established by some other star system (no, we don't know which - Proxima, Mu Cephei, Aldebran... it could be any of them.) Here's the key, though: both parties believed themselves to be part of the Confederation. It was not a lone independant world making its way in the galaxy while Imperial overlords plotted its destiny.
That's the basis of the de facto argument - these star systems were part of the Confederation because they were created by Confederation member states, used Confederation resources, etc., etc. It's the same argument made against the American colonies... and it took a war and not a court case to decide the outcome in that case.
Consider that the border worlds, in the geographic sense, are where most of the war was fought. The Confederation spent hundreds of trillions of credits and sent over two trillion men and women to their graves to keep the region from being overrun by the Kilrathi. It isn't some heartless group hoping the colonials will suffer as much as possible - but it's very hard to explain to a constituency why their sons and daughters gave their lives for a Confederation that would immediately split apart.
(And, again, I think it's important to note that Tolwyn's involvement in the creation of the radical movement *significantly* taints everything on both sides -- it's doubly not some group of noble idealists given that circumstance...)
... and despite *all* of this, it's very very very very very very (very) important to note that the hated Confederation with it's evil "pro war" politicians (argle!) was perfectly happy to *let these planets go!* when they asked to do so. The Border Worlds declared independence and the Confederation replied by ordering them not to sail in Confed airspace and by declaring that the Articles of Confederation no longer applied to them (... which is what they wanted.)
It took Tolwyn's further machinations to force a specific military crisis which brought about the vote for war... which was defeated and replaced with a motion to permanently recognize the colonies' independence and to form a committee to develop a relationship. One could very well argue that the Confederation is the noble party in all of this -- it's England realizing that the days of Empire are over and letting the colonies go after World War II rather than England dispatching her armies to force America's allegiance. When your beloved Outerworld Fleet was busy pre-emptively striking foreign targets the terrible, terrible Confederation was standing down its forces and analyzing the situation.
And now, reasonable men:
You can actually win that mission without destroying one of the cruisers -- just shoot down all the escort fighters instead (there's ten of them.)
The Princeton was used during the rush to Earth at the end of the crisis. I've always imagined that the Border Worlds may have six carrier equivalents, since the Intrepid is CV-6. Those would include two converted heavy destroyers (Intrepid and Tango), two Landreich CVEs (unnamed) and possibly the two converter ore transports.
It is supposed to be like the Civil War -- the local forces that were in the Border Worlds or that felt loyal to their cause became the Union of Border Worlds' military. The new government gathered up their meager assets into a unified force and prepared to fight a war with them... if there was a Tallahassee cruiser in dock at Ymir then it was suddenly a Border Worlds warship. (We do also know that they recieved ships (including two of their carriers) from the Landreich.)
I don't think you're right on this one -- he's saying that they're the legitimate government versus which ever group the mercenaries are supporting, not versus his fleet.
Wilford's command ship was actually a CVE loaned by the Landreich, IIRC.