Bussard Ram Scoop

B

BusbyLogic

Spaceman
Ok in WingCommander I understand how they work but in real life I have read they work much differently. a Giant scoop positivly charged to attract free floating hydrogen atoms filling up the fuel tanks. The problem is at teh speeds we are able to travel we would not be able to collect enough atoms to create a positive fuel intake. Since we have inertia the longer you fire your engines the faster you will go so eventially you will reach a speed at which your intake of hydrogens atoms exceeds your expenditure, at this point you will be able to continue on your journey untill your decelerization phase.
 
Theres no 'h'. Its suppose to be 'bussard' after fusion scientist Robert W Bussard.
 
Chevieblazer said:
fly through the outer atmosphere of a gas giant. hydrogen should be much denser there;)
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You need specific isotopes, you can't just go gulping up tons of junk and expect the engines to function.
 
Frosty said:
You need specific isotopes, you can't just go gulping up tons of junk and expect the engines to function.
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Couldn't you use a method similar to what mass spectrometers use to separate the elements? Though probably that alone would use up more power than what you gain.
 
Heavy water boils (and freezes) at a higher temperature than H2O. That's one way you could isolate the isotope that you want. Either way, if you want something specific, the only way you're going to get it is by "gulping up tons of junk" and a fractionation.
 
The percentage of junk helium you'd suck up from dipping into an atmosphere is probably way in excess of that you'd get from open space.
 
BusbyLogic said:
Ok in WingCommander I understand how they work but in real life I have read they work much differently. a Giant scoop positivly charged to attract free floating hydrogen atoms filling up the fuel tanks. The problem is at teh speeds we are able to travel we would not be able to collect enough atoms to create a positive fuel intake. Since we have inertia the longer you fire your engines the faster you will go so eventially you will reach a speed at which your intake of hydrogens atoms exceeds your expenditure, at this point you will be able to continue on your journey untill your decelerization phase.
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One thing to keep in mind about the Wing Commander hydrogen scoops is that they are almost always going to be used for travel within a solar system, rather than for maneuvering in deep space. One of the novels specifically mentions that jump points are found close to stars, so wing commander ships will almost always use their sublight engines within a solar system. Since the ships are maneuvering in close proximity to at least one star (and possibly other gas giants), there will be far more stray hydrogen atoms that can be collected then there would be in deep space, which presumably makes the scoops highly efficient.
 
from what I was to understand the density of matter in the universe was a constant kinda like gas in air it fills the space equally
 
BusbyLogic said:
from what I was to understand the density of matter in the universe was a constant kinda like gas in air it fills the space equally
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In that case, I guess we're all bags of gas floating in space as well, then? Funny, I could've sworn I was standing on a planet in a star system which exists in a clump of matter called a galaxy.

You've thrown a completely unrelated concept into this argument - if you're looking at the ENTIRE universe, then everything averages out to a uniform distribution, assuming that all matter is homogenous and in its most basic forms. However, in the scales we operate in, matter is not homogenous or uniformly distributed - that's why you exist as a piece of meat and water somewhere, on a rocky body we call a planet, in non-isotropic form. Within a star system, you've got a lot of matter floating around, at least compared to the spaces between star systems, assuming our assumptions are correct insofar as that matter distribution remains fairly uniform outside of the clumpings of matter we call stars.

The scoop fields of the WC universe spread pretty widely to gather the material they require to fuel the engines, which have the side-effect of allowing ships to maneuver almost as if they were in an atmospheric environment.
 
BusbyLogic said:
from what I was to understand the density of matter in the universe was a constant kinda like gas in air it fills the space equally
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Actually, as Haesslich mentioned, most of the universe is essentially a vacuum since you have isolated clusters of matter such as stars separated by extremely large distances. Encountering matter in the unverse is a fairly uncommon event since the average particle desnity in the universe is extremely low. The only reason matter is grouped into stars and planets rather than simply spreading out to cover the universe uniformly is due to gravity. Gravitational forces hold stars and planets together and keep planets in orbit, creating solar systems, and the gravitaional forces between stars causes them to cluster together, creating galaxies, and so on. Without gravitational forces, matter would have likely distributed uniformly after the big bang and we'd have a very homogenous (and boring) universe.

Which sounds simple enough, except that the actual distribution of matter in the universe is considerably more complicated. What I've been referring to is "visible" matter such as stars that can be detected based on the radiation they emit. However, there appear to be far stronger gravitional forces acting in the universe then can be explained by the presence of visible matter such as stars. This has lead to the theory that "dark matter" exists which does not emit radition but nontheless exerts gravitational forces. It actually appears that most of the matter in the universe is "dark matter", since the gravitational forces that can be calaculated based on visible matter only account for a small fraction (less than 10%) of the matter known to exist. There are other explanations for this observation, however, that don't invovle dark matter, such as the idea that gravitational forces may simply be acting differently than we expect and might still be due entirely to visible matter. So although the distribution of matter can be determined based on gravitational observations and we can approximate how much matter exists in a certain location, the exact nature of the matter isn't really understood.

In either case, as I mentioned earlier hydrogen scoops would be most useful within a solar system since there would be much larger amounts of hydrogen to collect. Whether they'd be useful in deep space is sort of a moot point, because if you're moving at sublight speeds it would take you so long to cover the vast interstellar distances involved that collecting a few stray hydrogen atoms to use as fuel isn't likely to make any difference at all. Overall, I like the idea of wing commander ships using hydrogen scoops for sublight travel since unlike most other science fiction settings it provides an interesting explanation for where they get their fuel. It makes the wing commander universe and technology a little more believeable, which is a nice bonus conisdering the entire setting is based on a computer game where you fly a starfighter and blow up talking cats. :)
 
Haesslich said:
In that case, I guess we're all bags of gas floating in space as well, then? Funny, I could've sworn I was standing on a planet in a star system which exists in a clump of matter called a galaxy.

You've thrown a completely unrelated concept into this argument - if you're looking at the ENTIRE universe, then everything averages out to a uniform distribution, assuming that all matter is homogenous and in its most basic forms. However, in the scales we operate in, matter is not homogenous or uniformly distributed - that's why you exist as a piece of meat and water somewhere, on a rocky body we call a planet, in non-isotropic form. Within a star system, you've got a lot of matter floating around, at least compared to the spaces between star systems, assuming our assumptions are correct insofar as that matter distribution remains fairly uniform outside of the clumpings of matter we call stars.

The scoop fields of the WC universe spread pretty widely to gather the material they require to fuel the engines, which have the side-effect of allowing ships to maneuver almost as if they were in an atmospheric environment.
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No reason to get harsh. I am just trying to clarify what I read with the everyone here. Learning alot on the subject, I am glad there has been as much insight as there has been.
 
<average forum poster> IT'5 M4g1C LOLKTNXBY3!!!!onw</afp>

well, There are so many things wrong about WC physics... If we get started, the list will just go on.
 
Devari said:
Overall, I like the idea of wing commander ships using hydrogen scoops for sublight travel since unlike most other science fiction settings it provides an interesting explanation for where they get their fuel. It makes the wing commander universe and technology a little more believeable, which is a nice bonus conisdering the entire setting is based on a computer game where you fly a starfighter and blow up talking cats. :)
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Not to mention a handy explanation for why they don't move according to Newtonian physics in a vacuum.
 
Crowley said:
Not to mention a handy explanation for why they don't move according to Newtonian physics in a vacuum.
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Dont they move that way in the books. When closing the scoops there friction is greatly reduced allowing them to excelerate to great speeds to cross solor system distances faster than cruising speed
 
BusbyLogic said:
Dont they move that way in the books. When closing the scoops there friction is greatly reduced allowing them to excelerate to great speeds to cross solor system distances faster than cruising speed
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That's what Crowley is referring to, the fact that the books mention that having the hydrogen scoops open creates drag and limits the ship's maximum velocity. It's a good explanation for why there are maximum speeds for wing commander ships in the games and why they don't run out of fuel for their main engines.
 
which brings up a question about long distance endurance since the only fighter im aware of that has scoops is the Dragon. This would mean that in heading towards a target such as a ship or gate there would be no scoops in order to be used a drag so you would have to use the engines as a decelerant using more fuel, while its bigger brother the cap ship no only uses its scoops for drag but refuels itself as well. So knowing this if you cancel out the drag factor in a cap ship and just use mass would they be able to overtake fighters in long distance travel *could explain why blairs fighter was overtaken in the movie*

Tell me if im completly wrong here im enjoying this
 
BusbyLogic said:
which brings up a question about long distance endurance since the only fighter im aware of that has scoops is the Dragon. This would mean that in heading towards a target such as a ship or gate there would be no scoops in order to be used a drag so you would have to use the engines as a decelerant using more fuel, while its bigger brother the cap ship no only uses its scoops for drag but refuels itself as well. So knowing this if you cancel out the drag factor in a cap ship and just use mass would they be able to overtake fighters in long distance travel *could explain why blairs fighter was overtaken in the movie*

Tell me if im completly wrong here im enjoying this
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Then you're completely wrong. :D All fighters have scoop fields, or at least all the fighters we're familiar with from the WC games. It's referenced in the novels that fighting in atmosphere consumes fuel that can't be replenished, because the scoop fields are closed due to the drag they'd create. The Dragon and Excalibur both use M/AM engines, however, which allow them virtually unlimited range - the Dragon more so than the Excalibur. When they shut scoops down, they're going to a pure Newtonian flight model as acceleration continues so long as there's thrust, and they keep travelling in the same direction unless they use their thrusters to redirect their course by adjusting their vector.
 
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