Border World's Situation

[RogueBanshee]

You don't win a war by fighting defense all the time... The Germans ended up doing that in WWI, and they were in a much better position

I know what Rogue is trying to say, but I think he's out of the mark...

Most of the damage done TO ConFed in a full war with the Union would have been done by the Black Lance...

There are some people in ConFed helping them, to the point where Eisen can take the St. Helens, but remember the Vesuvius won that fight... They would have lost the war even with Eisen's friends…



The US independence doesn’t strike me as the best analogy… It would be more like an independence war in the Pacific… Each planet as an island… You would need to go toe to toe with confed ships, as if the US were to face the Royal Navy on their independence war…

I mean, it would have been a “Navy” war… And the union didn’t have a very impressive one.

The UBW would certainly be outnumbered and outgunned but they would have a chance. When exactly is this timeline veering off from the official timeline anyway? (In other words does this just assume that Blair reached the Senate but failed to convince them not to declare war, or did the timeline veer off earlier?)

 

[Deadman_ny]

If you die later in the game it goes to the 'bad' timeline where Confed gors after the UBW. Or like you said if you don't convince the sanate.
It's a matter of sheer resouces and manpwer. The UBW is desperate for fighters and cap-ships as it was by the time Blair is heading for the senate. Though he Confed fleet may have been mouthballed because of the turndown at the end of the Kilrathi war. After the declaration of war alot more firepower would be brought to bear against the UBW. So while they may get some licks at the onset of the war once the UBW's lost enough ships-pilots perssonal they're screwed. Not to mention the Black Lance would have a free hand; to operate openly (most likely with bioweapons) which with the tests on LB264...after seeing 10 or so WORLDS wiped out with a single strike.
The concept that a man defending his home is as strong as ten attackers does marrit something. But when that defender is being turned inside out by microscopic nanobots... Screwed he is.
The Free Replic of Landrich...you which is evan smaller and most likely Tolwyns next target...
which begs the uestion. After devestating the hapless people in the outer worlds. What did Tolwyn plan to do? Wouldn't the very same senate just cut funding again after the problem was taken care of? Then we'd become complacent nd crap again. There are only so many factions to pick a fight with after all. Thoose damn Firekka look to be up to trouble...

 

[RogueBanshee]

If you die later in the game it goes to the 'bad' timeline where Confed gors after the UBW. Or like you said if you don't convince the sanate.
It's a matter of sheer resouces and manpwer. The UBW is desperate for fighters and cap-ships as it was by the time Blair is heading for the senate. Though he Confed fleet may have been mouthballed because of the turndown at the end of the Kilrathi war. After the declaration of war alot more firepower would be brought to bear against the UBW. So while they may get some licks at the onset of the war once the UBW's lost enough ships-pilots perssonal they're screwed. Not to mention the Black Lance would have a free hand; to operate openly (most likely with bioweapons) which with the tests on LB264...after seeing 10 or so WORLDS wiped out with a single strike.
The concept that a man defending his home is as strong as ten attackers does marrit something. But when that defender is being turned inside out by microscopic nanobots... Screwed he is.
The Free Replic of Landrich...you which is evan smaller and most likely Tolwyns next target...
which begs the uestion. After devestating the hapless people in the outer worlds. What did Tolwyn plan to do? Wouldn't the very same senate just cut funding again after the problem was taken care of? Then we'd become complacent nd crap again. There are only so many factions to pick a fight with after all. Thoose damn Firekka look to be up to trouble...

I'm pretty sure that Tolwyn planned to hit all of the human worlds with the bio-convergence weapon.

 

[Deadman_ny]

"You have to seperate the wheat from the chaff."

 

[frostytheplebe]

The US independence doesn’t strike me as the best analogy… It would be more like an independence war in the Pacific… Each planet as an island… You would need to go toe to toe with confed ships, as if the US were to face the Royal Navy on their independence war…

I mean, it would have been a “Navy” war… And the union didn’t have a very impressive one.

Then I offer a better analogy; The War of 1812. We actually had a Navy at that pont.

The difference between us and the BWs was as follows,

The quality of the US ships in comparison to British is significant. The United State's Navy, though only a fraction in size, the quality of the Warships built were considerably higher.
Thier designs were controversial for their time being long on keel, narrow of beam, and mounting very heavy guns. Again they were unusual in that they used a diagonal scantling (rib) scheme that was intended to restrict hogging (sagging of the ship at the ends from the middle) while giving them extremely heavy planking. This gave the hulls a strength that other more lightly built frigates simply couldn't match.
Plus they held 38-44 guns to against the more conventional 36 Guns held by the British Frigates.

Now, before I stray too far from the argument, Roguebanshee, while your argument is somewhat compelling, I fear you are incorrect. The United States fought a totally defensive war and, even with the defense of these new frigates, were unable to stop the British. Half of thier best ships were lost, and Britain captured several strategic targets, including Washington DC. Now, history tells us that this war was a victory for the United States, because the British withdrew...

Honestly, the United States lost this war. In my humble opinion, the only reason we sing "God bless America" instead of "God bless the Queen." Is because the British had bigger fish to fry while trying to deal with the French and hadn't the forces to commit to fighting the US.

I agree with Houkiboshi you can NOT win a war fighting totally defensive. You can force a withdrawal if your forces are powerful enough (and the UBWs weren't), you may even break the enemy fighting spirit, but a defensive war means that it is totally fought in your territory against your bases and cities, and like it or not, damage is will be done. The most you can accomplish during a defensive war is a stalemate.

Now I understand that my argument is dealing with about 1,000 years of difference, but I believe the point is there. The Union Navy had state of the art ships, whereas the UBW were using old, out-of-date, ships that were all but falling to pieces. Now I'm not saying that they could not have made a glorious stand. If they had skilled officer's they may have even been able to strike a damaging blow against the Confederation, but that doesn't change the inevitable fact that in the end, they most definitely would have lost.

The Battle of Terra was a perfect example, Confed was completely out-numbered and completely out-gunned but they found a way to beat the odds.

If I'm not mistaken, Confed casualties during the battle were staggering. Also, I believe that battle was the turning point in the War. For the most part we see the Confederation on the offensive right up until WC3. After the battle of Terra, Confed's ability to fight the war was severly deminished. Yes they won Terra, but at what price? Win or loss, that battle nearly cost Confed the war.

The ripple effect is not something historians use in their analysis. It's something the History Channel uses to explain complex situations to dumb people.

Heh, well played Dundradal.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

And when did the UBW beg oxygen off of Kruger? I'm remeber them getting some fighters and escort carriers from Kruger but nothing states that they didn't have their own supplies of oxygen.

I was wrong, they get the fighters at Orleans (from Kruger) and the oxygen at Orestes.

Not to mention the Black Lance would have a free hand; to operate openly (most likely with bioweapons) which with the tests on LB264...after seeing 10 or so WORLDS wiped out with a single strike.

FT957.

The Free Replic of Landrich...you which is evan smaller and most likely Tolwyns next target...

It's debatable -- in False Colors he was clearly maneuvering the FRL as a 'safehouse' for people like his nephew and Jason Bondarevsky. The Landreich also just finished an apparently disasterous war with the Confederation, and would likely not have been willing to fight another.

I'm pretty sure that Tolwyn planned to hit all of the human worlds with the bio-convergence weapon.

He planned to begin the war by seeding only five Confederation worlds.

Then I offer a better analogy; The War of 1812. We actually had a Navy at that pont.

Frostytheplebe, rest of the thread, rest of the thread, frostytheplebe.

(The best historical analogy is probably the Pilgrim War - in which the larger Confederation simply mobilized over time and took apart a smaller aggressor one piece at a time; like the Union, the Pilgrims began fighting the war by launching 'newsworthy' offensive actions... and ended it unable to put together enough of a fighting force to break through impossible dense blockades around their home worlds.)

 

[frostytheplebe]

Frostytheplebe, rest of the thread, rest of the thread, frostytheplebe.

Yeah yeah yeah

Actually a strategy that may have helped bolster the UBWs fighting force would have been hiring mercs and pirates to help them fight... I believe they did that with Hawk... didn't they?

 

[Dundradal]

It's debatable -- in False Colors he was clearly maneuvering the FRL as a 'safehouse' for people like his nephew and Jason Bondarevsky. The Landreich also just finished an apparently disasterous war with the Confederation, and would likely not have been willing to fight another.

Can we call the war disasterous? The line in S*S just mentions that the war was fought and not on the outcome. I might be forgetting something from TPoF so I'm not 100%.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

My thought is that it can't have gone well for the Landreich because it's seen as the beginning of the end of Kruger's dynasty.

 

[Deadman_ny]

FT957.

First string of letters and numbers that popped into my head. Was close though.

So after Confed was done with the border worlds what then? The fleet would have been demobilized again for peacetime standing. Like just before the beginning of the Kilrathi war, or during the 'truce' with the Kilrathi and then again after the final Kilrathi truce. There are even cutbacks mentioned in WCP. One of the reasons that they decided to build the Midway class...but then they cut funding to that project too. :s
As a race we've been making the same mistake for centuries. We don't see a threat or if we see a threat we'de rather try to kiss ass rather then simply be ready. Action Stations, Fleet Action and The Price Of Freedom all go on at length about how polititions are gutting the military. There is a big difference between being a warmonger and just keeping a level of battle readyness and training. You don't need a massive fleets, but the training and tech advances should still be followed. There is always something brewing.

QUOTE=Bandit LOAF;350404]

It's debatable -- in False Colors he was clearly maneuvering the FRL as a 'safehouse' for people like his nephew and Jason Bondarevsky. The Landreich also just finished an apparently disasterous war with the Confederation, and would likely not have been willing to fight another.
[/QUOTE]

So they were of worthy stock? If the Landreich starting voicing distain over the war with the UBW wouldn't Tolwyn have to shut them up?
I was surprised that when argueing with the senate/Tolwyn that the mention of bioweapons to the senate...they didn't really care. What pissed them off though was that Tolwyn reactivated the Genetic Enhancement program. "Your using bioweapons! Oh ok. We approved that bill. Um, whats this recept for GE? We didn't allow this in the budget!!! Your ass is canned!"
It seems to be the real reason Jeff got court-marshelled. Not for killing thousands of innocent people but rather for missapropriation of funds. Loopholes....

 

[RogueBanshee]

He planned to begin the war by seeding only five Confederation worlds.

Yeah but he refers to them as the first 5 Confed worlds on the list, which means that he plans to target others later. Also once the weapon get loose it would spread to other worlds, via ships fleeing the infected worlds unless Confed managed to completely blockade all 5 worlds before any ships got out.

 

[Houkiboshi]

once the weapon get loose it would spread to other worlds, via ships fleeing the infected worlds unless Confed managed to completely blockade all 5 worlds before any ships got out.

Hmmm... I think that could be your best point...

Why should I attack all the planets? I can hit a big one -a hub- and let others carry on with spreading it arround

 

[Bandit LOAF]

once the weapon get loose it would spread to other worlds, via ships fleeing the infected worlds unless Confed managed to completely blockade all 5 worlds before any ships got out.

Yes, he says this explicitly - spreading the virus on the "wings of war."

So after Confed was done with the border worlds what then? The fleet would have been demobilized again for peacetime standing. Like just before the beginning of the Kilrathi war, or during the 'truce' with the Kilrathi and then again after the final Kilrathi truce. There are even cutbacks mentioned in WCP. One of the reasons that they decided to build the Midway class...but then they cut funding to that project too. :s
As a race we've been making the same mistake for centuries. We don't see a threat or if we see a threat we'de rather try to kiss ass rather then simply be ready. Action Stations, Fleet Action and The Price Of Freedom all go on at length about how polititions are gutting the military. There is a big difference between being a warmonger and just keeping a level of battle readyness and training. You don't need a massive fleets, but the training and tech advances should still be followed. There is always something brewing.

Well, one element of Tolwyn's plan involved temporarily weakening the Confederation with the genselect device... but presumably he had long range plans for going to war with any number of smaller nations -- the Landreich and the Border Worlds aren't the only ones out there. The Confederation itself consiste of a half-dozen races... and then there's Kilrathi warlords, the Firekkans, other colonial separatist groups (Grovsner, Etruria, etc.) The idea, I think, would be to keep *some* form of war going on and on to keep up preparedness...

So they were of worthy stock? If the Landreich starting voicing distain over the war with the UBW wouldn't Tolwyn have to shut them up?

Did the United States have to shut up every country that took issue with the invasion of Iraq ?

Tolwyn had his people running the Landreich -- and because of recent events their one unpredictable element was on his way out. In fact, I think it would be hard to predict whether the Landreich as we know it would survive the end of Kruger's regime.