Border Worlds Conflict

[Quarto]

The Battle of Kilrah entry is specifically talking about the first major Confed penetration to the Kilrah system.

Hmm, I don't think the first one qualified as a battle either - it was an event inspired by the Doolittle Raid, which was, you know, a raid.

On a sidenote, I just had a read of the article you linked to, and I just have to gripe about it . It's factually inaccurate, and painful to read. It doesn't make the link between the Tarawa raid and the events taking place at Vukar Tag, instead implying that Vukar Tag was merely something that took place at the same time. It doesn't explain that the mission at Kilrah was a decoy operation, where the Tarawa's success wasn't really expected nor required. It actually claims that the Tarawa was chosen because the mission "require some of the finest ships and soldiers Confed had to offer" - which would actually imply that the Tarawa, with its fresh and still-untried crew would be the absolute last ship to be considered for this mission .

...And then there's all the "fameds" - the "famed TCS Tarawa" (which was not famous at all, and was sent specifically because it was expendable), the "famed pilot Jason Bondarevsky" (who was not famous at all, since his career was really still just taking off - and who, judging from the article, has no rank at this time, being a mere "pilot"), the "famed TCS Concordia" (yes, yes, the Concordia was famous... but urgggh!). The "sadlies", "fortunatelies" and similar emotion-laden words are also irritating - they have no place in a historical article.

 

[Dundradal]

Hmm, I don't think the first one qualified as a battle either - it was an event inspired by the Doolittle Raid, which was, you know, a raid.

Very true, however here, unlike at Japan, the raiding force encounters heavy Kilrathi resistance in the form of fighters, light and heavy capships and carriers. I think that changes it from merely a raid to a battle.

On a sidenote, I just had a read of the article you linked to, and I just have to gripe about it . It's factually inaccurate, and painful to read.

I can agree with that. It's one of the articles that I need to go over (I didn't write it in the first place, but it's on my list of ones that do need to be rewritten). Aeronautico wrote it, however because he does not have the novels and the context they provide you can see why it's in its current state.

I've added a factcheck flag to it to remind me or whoever that it needs to be rewritten.

 

[Jason_Ryock]

Very true, however here, unlike at Japan, the raiding force encounters heavy Kilrathi resistance in the form of fighters, light and heavy capships and carriers. I think that changes it from merely a raid to a battle.

Couldn't the same argument be made for the Temblor bomb run?

And I don't see why you wouldn't work on the project, you've got some technical knowhow that would come in handy on fleshing out ship entries and other aspects that I know I certainly could not handle.

While I appreciate the compliment I do feel it's necessary to point out that I'm merely an instrument through which others (Quarto and Mario, chiefly) are using. It's their technical know how that made things like extracting TRE and IFF files possible.

 

[Dundradal]

Couldn't the same argument be made for the Temblor bomb run?

I don't think so. In that case it's a mere 4 fighters. Granted they do run into some capship resistance, however they are only a small flight. The T-bomb run is almost a textbook case of what a "raid" is. The Tarawa and co. encounter a much larger amount of resistance and while at heart it is a raid (destroying the shipyards) the arrival of Thrakhath and the carriers pushes it into the realm of a battle.

 

[Quarto]

Very true, however here, unlike at Japan, the raiding force encounters heavy Kilrathi resistance in the form of fighters, light and heavy capships and carriers. I think that changes it from merely a raid to a battle.

I don't think it does. While there's no textbook definition of "battle" as a historical term, in the real world it tends to be used in situations where the two involved sides had some level of parity, and where the main objectives involved decisively defeating the enemy force (whether by actually destroying it, or forcing it to give up on its objectives). A raid isn't a raid because there's no resistance - a raid is a raid because it's intended to ignore or circumvent the resistance. It usually involves a force too small to actually win a battle, but strong enough to achieve some other objective.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

There's a case of intent vs. sense in terms of overall continuity here. I'm 99 percent certain that the reference in Secret Ops is supposed to mean that the First Battle of Kilrah is end of Wing Commander III and that the second is the end of Prophecy -- but maybe it makes more sense for it to be any other combination (of the three options?)

 

[Bandit LOAF]

I don't think it does. While there's no textbook definition of "battle" as a historical term, in the real world it tends to be used in situations where the two involved sides had some level of parity, and where the main objectives involved decisively defeating the enemy force (whether by actually destroying it, or forcing it to give up on its objectives). A raid isn't a raid because there's no resistance - a raid is a raid because it's intended to ignore or circumvent the resistance. It usually involves a force too small to actually win a battle, but strong enough to achieve some other objective.

Wing Commander III might better fit this definition, when we consider the two fleets facing off on the other side of the jump point during Blair's attack.

 

[Dundradal]

So do these sound acceptable to everyone? I put multiple entries down and we can pick which one we think is best.

2667 - Kilrah Raid/Raid on Kilrah - Strike Force Valkyrie
2669 - Temblor Bomb Raid/Bombing/Destruction of Kilrah
2669 - Battle of Freya(or is it Hyperion?)/First Battle of Kilrah
2681 - Second Battle of Kilrah

 

[Quarto]

The Confed fleet fighting for the jump points to Kilrah as a battle definitely makes sense.

As for the Tarawa... well, I think "The Tarawa Raid" might be better. Otherwise, you'll be responsible for thousands of 28th century schoolkids failing their history tests because they confused the Kilrah Raid with the Battle of Kilrah .

 

[Dundradal]

The Confed fleet fighting for the jump points to Kilrah as a battle definitely makes sense.

As for the Tarawa... well, I think "The Tarawa Raid" might be better. Otherwise, you'll be responsible for thousands of 28th century schoolkids failing their history tests because they confused the Kilrah Raid with the Battle of Kilrah .

As a history professor I'm perfectly ok with that.

Tarawa Raid although will probably be the best fit. We do call it the Doolittle Raid after all.

 

[Jason_Ryock]

The Confed fleet fighting for the jump points to Kilrah as a battle definitely makes sense.

As for the Tarawa... well, I think "The Tarawa Raid" might be better. Otherwise, you'll be responsible for thousands of 28th century schoolkids failing their history tests because they confused the Kilrah Raid with the Battle of Kilrah .

I would second this, however, you're missing one here, I would list it like this:

2667 - The Tarawa Raid

2669 - First Battle of Kilrah (I would list this one first chronologically. I realize that both events take place at the same time, but this is sort of the background/lead in to the Temblor Bombing Run, and chronologically it makes sense if you discuss a battle that aided in the destruction of Kilrah before you discuss the destruction of Kilrah itself. I think the point is sort of lost if you do.)

2669 - Temblor Bomb Raid

2681 - Incident at Kilrah? (The Deveraux being destroyed)

2681 - Second Battle of Kilrah

 

[Quarto]

2681 - Incident at Kilrah? (The Deveraux being destroyed)

Well, that's something else entirely, and "incident" is a pretty vast understatement for this. I mean, it wasn't just the Devereaux getting destroyed, it was, I daresay, a somewhat bigger event, what with every single other ship and installation in the system being destroyed, and the appearance of a huge invasion force.

 

[Jason_Ryock]

Well, that's something else entirely, and "incident" is a pretty vast understatement for this. I mean, it wasn't just the Devereaux getting destroyed, it was, I daresay, a somewhat bigger event, what with every single other ship and installation in the system being destroyed, and the appearance of a huge invasion force.

I will confess to being unsure what else to name it. But I do feel, given the significance attached to the event you pointed out, that it should be included in any list of battles/engagements/events occurring in the Kilrah system.

 

[Mancubus]

I would second this, however, you're missing one here, I would list it like this:


2669 - Temblor Bomb Raid

I don't like this one I never heard anyone reffering to what happened on june 6th, 1945 as "Atomic Bomb Raid" i think better name would be "Temblor Bombing of Kilrath", or best (and most likely used by 28th century and later historians) simply "Destruction of Kilrath" as an article title

naming an act of genocide (and the fact it was nessesary doesnt stop it being genocide. I personally belive that atomic bombing of Hiroshima was the best possible course of action for both sides, but i still consider it genocide)a raid just feels wrong. I suppose Kilrathi would call it like this (if it was them performing the raid of course), but not humans

 

[Dundradal]

I'd prefer "Destruction of Kilrah" as well. It's clear what we are talking about and shouldn't confuse any readers as to what the article is about.

For the Nephilim appearance at Kilrah I don't think the initial incident at Kilrah needs to be a separate article. It would merely be the opening part of an article about the invasion. At most it would be a unique timeline entry.

We should also make note of these threads so that when the time comes to work on these articles we already have our old arguments/conclusions at hand.

 

[quaker2k8]

There's a case of intent vs. sense in terms of overall continuity here. I'm 99 percent certain that the reference in Secret Ops is supposed to mean that the First Battle of Kilrah is end of Wing Commander III and that the second is the end of Prophecy

I always understood it like that too.

 

[Jason_Ryock]

I'd prefer "Destruction of Kilrah" as well. It's clear what we are talking about and shouldn't confuse any readers as to what the article is about.

I don't think that makes it clear at all...if it was called Destruction of Tokoyo for example, it could easily refer to a natural disaster such as an earthquake. Destruction of Kilrah sounds far to un-militaristic.

Well then again, if this is written from the Confederation future perspective, I could see Confed referring to it as such in an appeasement/guilt move for the Kilrathi.

For the Nephilim appearance at Kilrah I don't think the initial incident at Kilrah needs to be a separate article. It would merely be the opening part of an article about the invasion. At most it would be a unique timeline entry.

Well I think this is an important point to decide on. Because this would mean that equally significant events involving the destruction of only a single ship in which battle was never fully joined should not be listed, such as the TCS Iason or the Anna Magdalena (did I spell that one right?).

I'm not actually advocating either way, but I think it's an important point to distinguish on so that policy is established before the incident comes to hand.

 

[Aeronautico]

Time for me to jump in.

I concur that "Tarawa Raid" may be a better title. Cool. But the Temblor Bomb run on Kilrah, I read somewhere that it was called the "Lancelot Flight". Before I even think of naming it that, I want to know if any source gave it this title. It's something I came across a couple of times from various sources. The Lancelot Flight, if that was the title, should be fitting as the name of the operation as a whole.

Also, in regards to the Devereaux incident, that can be used in the prelude for a future "Nephilim War" article and in one for a "Battle of Kilrah" article. It is not enough to compose an article on strictly that subject, but makes good prelude material.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

I'd prefer "Destruction of Kilrah" as well. It's clear what we are talking about and shouldn't confuse any readers as to what the article is about.

Woah there, folks! We don't need to come up with all these increasingly editorial names for events. There only needs to be a 'Second Battle of Kilrah' entry because that was used as a proper term in Secret Ops. If we have an in-continuity name for an event (ie, "Custer's Carnival"), we can use it or redirect it to a timeline entry; otherwise, just put the event in the timeline. It's not *our* job to decide what the denizens of the Wing Commander universe call the destruction of Kilrah, if we don't already know.

I don't like this one I never heard anyone reffering to what happened on june 6th, 1945 as "Atomic Bomb Raid"

That makes sense, since the atomic bombing of Hiroshima was *August* 6th (Sorry, nitpicking, I know.)

naming an act of genocide (and the fact it was nessesary doesnt stop it being genocide.

Not to debate something that isn't relevant to Wing Commander overly much, but the proof of the pudding for genocide is in the *intent* and not the success; if you're setting out to kill all of a particular ethnic group then it's genocide, even if you're a horrible failure at it. The atomic bombings would be some form of opposite; a completely different goal (win the war) whose structure happens to require killing a lot of people from a particular ethnic group. The difference is that no one was sitting around trying to figure out how they could best kill every Japanese person.

I concur that "Tarawa Raid" may be a better title. Cool. But the Temblor Bomb run on Kilrah, I read somewhere that it was called the "Lancelot Flight". Before I even think of naming it that, I want to know if any source gave it this title. It's something I came across a couple of times from various sources. The Lancelot Flight, if that was the title, should be fitting as the name of the operation as a whole.

That was the callsign for the four Excaliburs -- an entry named Lancelot Flight should reflect specifically that and then link to the date in question.

(I would think information on the Tarawa's raid would be included in 'Operation Backlash'...)

 

[Mancubus]

Woah there, folks! We don't need to come up with all these increasingly editorial names for events. There only needs to be a 'Second Battle of Kilrah' entry because that was used as a proper term in Secret Ops. If we have an in-continuity name for an event (ie, "Custer's Carnival"), we can use it or redirect it to a timeline entry; otherwise, just put the event in the timeline. It's not *our* job to decide what the denizens of the Wing Commander universe call the destruction of Kilrah, if we don't already know.

Yeah, right, but we *do* have to decide how to name WCpedia article about the event

That makes sense, since the atomic bombing of Hiroshima was *August* 6th (Sorry, nitpicking, I know.)

sorry it was quite latewhen i wrote it. I know its *August* 6th, a day before my Birthday