Blair & Maniac's First Meeting

Actually the first episode of the show takes place before the movie. Other then that the show and the game work together. Also to confirm what Pip said, the movie was truly not intended to mix with the game. Chris Roberts himself said its a re imagining of wing commander. Later on though just because the movie didn't do well enough to have sequels it was just tied into the game and the show by the books and other fan fictions. I have asked these questions many times myself. After getting the explanations from Bandit Chris,etc. It seems to all come together.
 
Do you have a source for that claim, Kilrathikiller, or are you just pulling it out of your ass like a lot of other people who refuse to believe that WCM is a part of the continuity?
 
First off death don't get snippy with me. Read the whole damn thing I posted. I am claiming its part of the continuity but it wasn't the first thing on Chris Roberts mind.My source for this claim is simple just watch the behind the scenes stuff on this site. Maybe it doesn't come right out of Chris' mouth but Charles Lee said,"The director did not want to draw the imagery from the game, wanted us to develop a whole new look to Wing Commander". For me that seems quite possibly he wanted to recreate it to a point. The books are the things that make it fit in the game universe. Look it fricking has skipper missiles in it and it wasn't created till 2669 and that takes place in 2654. There are a lot of things weird about the movie but I want it to take place in the whole universe of things. That is why I say that after talking to Chris Reid and Bandit Loaf it makes more sense to me that it does fit. I still haven't got an answer on the skipper missile thing yet. This why I ask because I want it to fit.
 
First off death don't get snippy with me. Read the whole damn thing I posted. I am claiming its part of the continuity but it wasn't the first thing on Chris Roberts mind.My source for this claim is simple just watch the behind the scenes stuff on this site. Maybe it doesn't come right out of Chris' mouth but Charles Lee said,"The director did not want to draw the imagery from the game, wanted us to develop a whole new look to Wing Commander". For me that seems quite possibly he wanted to recreate it to a point. The books are the things that make it fit in the game universe.
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We're all friends here, so lets tone this down a notch... your own explanation specifically contradicts your original claim ("Chris Roberts himself said its a re imagining of wing commander"), so it's not a case of Death ignoring something yousaid. Note also that there were similar requirements made of Wing Commander games, too - Super Wing Commander and Wing Commander III were both specifically required to create new imagery.

Look it fricking has skipper missiles in it and it wasn't created till 2669 and that takes place in 2654. There are a lot of things weird about the movie but I want it to take place in the whole universe of things. That is why I say that after talking to Chris Reid and Bandit Loaf it makes more sense to me that it does fit. I still haven't got an answer on the skipper missile thing yet. This why I ask because I want it to fit.
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From a logical standpoint it makes sense for the Skipper to appear before the Strakha - it's a much less advanced use of cloaking technology. The Skipper has a 'double blind' cloak; you can't see the missile and the missile can't see you. Presumably the technology needed to cloak a fighter is a lot more advancd... since a Strakha pilot can maneuver, see, scan and even lock his own torpedoes while under cloak.

The Confederation Handbook's description of the Skipper backs up a lot of these thoughts... and it's also impotant to remember that when the movie takes place the Kilrathi are actually less than two years away from having combat-ready stealth fighters. It's only the events of Wing Commander II's intro that delay their widespread production.

The two Skippers are different specific weapons - remember that Eisen says that the Kilrathi are testing "a new type of cloaked missile." The missile in the movie (K459-C) is a long-range weapon with a yield equivalent to a torpedo while the missile in WC3 (YM-13A) is a short-range weapon a yield equivalent to that of a CapShip Missile (so, ten or so times as powerful as the one seen in the movie).

1.) Blair is refered to by Tolwyn as a 1st Lieutenant in the film, in the game he's a 2nd Lieutenant. Moments later Blair introduces himself as a Lieutenant JG. . .
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The movie uses naval ranks for all the characters rather than the Space Forces ones used by the game. In general everyone seems to be two grades higher than when they use TCSF ranks - perhaps the two grades of Ensigns don't fly, throwing everything off when using that system for fighter pilots?

2.) Maniac is said to be a new callsign for Marshall despite its repeated use in the television series.
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I'm not sure this is intentional - the shooting script actually has a line where they call him Maniac before he gets to the Tiger's Claw (it's dubbed over in the finished cut). The actual story of how Maniac got his callsign is from the Wing Commander I & II Ultimate Strategy Guide - and it happened at the Academy.
 
Well thanks for clearing up the skipper. Out of curiosity where was the information on the two different skippers found. My point I guess i'm trying to say is the movie doesn't really specify itself that its a different missile. In the books it might but not the movie.

I also swear I have heard something that Chris said on tape that its Wing Commander re imagined in some way or form, maybe in the web interview with him on this site. If I'm wrong, sorry for it, I just thought he did.Also in a way I did not contradict myself cuz Charles Lee said the directer(chris) said to do it. Wing Commander 3 still makes sense in the actual Wing Commander Universe even if it is a different art style because they don't use the same anything. Its different ships and different events and a lot of different people that don't contradict each other and that are clearly stated but still fall in the time-line with no questions asked because Chris Roberts wanted to finish the trilogy.

Paladin is still Scottish, and maybe he just died his hair and got fat from retirement(even though not true retirement). Angel still talks with what seems to be a french accent. Maniac I think personally was the best casting. Tom Wilson look a lot like the WC1 maniac in WC3. Mark doesn't have blue hair but at least its brown in it. Super Wing Commander, which i have not played yet but would like to, is Wing Commander 1 re imagined. It has same ships but look different and function a little different in some cases from what i've seen. The tiger's claw is a lexington class in it,not a Bengal class even if it does say it is.

Personally I do say the movie fits in with the games which is what I got mad with death about. I'm just saying I don't think it was a focus to fit it with the game. Its the books that were not written by Chris Roberts that say it fits. I'm not saying that they don't count. They are official Wing Commander. Just that maybe Chris wasn't planning on the two(movie series,game series) to be one in the same.This we may never know but its just my feeling on it because there are a lot of confusing things in the movie that if you go straight to the games or the show don't make clear sense. It has to be explained to you by an outside source.
Another thing that I am curious about is it seems that Angel and Chris are falling in love in the movie. You go back to the game and they just seem to be acquaintance until secret mission 2(I believe).
Bandit you know I always agree with ya because you know a lot more on Wing Commander then I do. So if I'm totally wrong with any of this just stop me but if I might be right just hear me out.
 
The rank issue seems, to me, to be part of Robert's attempt to reboot the franchise- it's one change among many. Take Paladin for example- how can you reconcile the accent he uses in the movie with the Scottish one he uses in the game? I realize when Davies took over the part the accent shifted but at least it was still a British accent. . . I read somewhere that the novelization says that the Scottish accent was an "affectation", but that seems pretty flimsy.

I think it's great that the fans try to find a way to make it work together but I don't quite understand the two ranks thing. Does Junior Grade equate to 2nd Lieutenant?

Game: 2nd Lieutenant

Movie: 1st Lieutenant/Lieutenant Junior Grade

At least the continuity isn't as bad as in the Highlander series with about three seperate continuities or the Halloween series which also has three seperate continuities. Need I mention Star Wars with it's levels of continuity. . . I don't know about you guys but I want one consistent continuity and I think it's great that there are people here working to that end.

Lastly, which book tried to tie everything together?

-Ryan P. Fialcowitz
 
Well thanks for clearing up the skipper. Out of curiosity where was the information on the two different skippers found. My point I guess i'm trying to say is the movie doesn't really specify itself that its a different missile. In the books it might but not the movie.
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The information on the Wing Commander III skipped comes from (brace for it :)) Wing Commander III. The designation appears in the briefing scene and the actual function of it comes from the gameplay itself. The information on the movie skipper comes (mostly) from the Confederation Handbook.

I also swear I have heard something that Chris said on tape that its Wing Commander re imagined in some way or form, maybe in the web interview with him on this site. If I'm wrong, sorry for it, I just thought he did.Also in a way I did not contradict myself cuz Charles Lee said the directer(chris) said to do it. Wing Commander 3 still makes sense in the actual Wing Commander Universe even if it is a different art style because they don't use the same anything. Its different ships and different events and a lot of different people that don't contradict each other and that are clearly stated but still fall in the time-line with no questions asked because Chris Roberts wanted to finish the trilogy.

Paladin is still Scottish, and maybe he just died his hair and got fat from retirement(even though not true retirement). Angel still talks with what seems to be a french accent. Maniac I think personally was the best casting. Tom Wilson look a lot like the WC1 maniac in WC3. Mark doesn't have blue hair but at least its brown in it.
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You're just saying that because you really like Wing Commander III. It takes place less than two years after Wing Commander II and retcons quite a few characters (Tolwyn and Blair hate eachother again, Maniac is no longer a crazed, pierced test pilot, Paladin is a heavyset bureaucrat (he also lacks a Scottish accent - it's English in WC3), Bluehair doesn't have blue hair, the 'set up' defeat at the end of WC2SO2 isn't ever mentioned again, the up and coming new fighters introduced in SO2, WCA and Armada never appear, etc. It's a complete shift in terms of visual design.)

Super Wing Commander, which i have not played yet but would like to, is Wing Commander 1 re imagined. It has same ships but look different and function a little different in some cases from what i've seen. The tiger's claw is a lexington class in it,not a Bengal class even if it does say it is.
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To be clear, Wing Commander Armada came out well *after* Super Wing Commander - SWC didn't take Armada's model and rename it... it happened the other way around.

Personally I do say the movie fits in with the games which is what I got mad with death about. I'm just saying I don't think it was a focus to fit it with the game. Its the books that were not written by Chris Roberts that say it fits. I'm not saying that they don't count. They are official Wing Commander. Just that maybe Chris wasn't planning on the two(movie series,game series) to be one in the same. This we may never know but its just my feeling on it because there are a lot of confusing things in the movie that if you go straight to the games or the show don't make clear sense. It has to be explained to you by an outside source.
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Woah, lets be clear about one thing - Chris Roberts has only two writing credits for all of the series: Wing Commander I and the Wing Commander movie. The former is because he co-authored the original 16-page outline for the game's setting and the latter because he did one of the script rewrites. He didn't plan out any continuity - he figured out how the game was supposed to work, he directed FMV sequences, he coordinated teams... but he isn't some all-planning writer like the Babylon 5 guy. Wing Commander games were plotted out by development teams and the scripts were written by professional scriptwriters (none of which were even in-house after WC2).

The games work the same way, though - the transition from Wing Commander II to Wing Commander III makes a lot more sense with the background created in End Run and Fleet Action. As for knowing what Chris was thinking - I imagine several people here know him...

Another thing that I am curious about is it seems that Angel and Chris are falling in love in the movie. You go back to the game and they just seem to be acquaintance until secret mission 2(I believe).
Bandit you know I always agree with ya because you know a lot more on Wing Commander then I do. So if I'm totally wrong with any of this just stop me but if I might be right just hear me out.
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It's a retcon, but not an impossible one -- the Angel-Blair relationship came about in the first place because fans demanded it after seeing her in WC1. :) They even add a bit about it to Super Wing Commander - if Angel dies her 'ghost' scene at the end mentions she thought she could fall in love with you.

The rank issue seems, to me, to be part of Robert's attempt to reboot the franchise- it's one change among many.
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Prophecy does exactly the same thing, though - gives Blair a Naval rank instead of a Space Forces one. It's not some grand plan for the series (or even indicative thereof)... it's just a side effect of the fact that the scriptwriters (be they for games or movies) aren't continuity geeks like we are.

Take Paladin for example- how can you reconcile the accent he uses in the movie with the Scottish one he uses in the game? I realize when Davies took over the part the accent shifted but at least it was still a British accent. . . I read somewhere that the novelization says that the Scottish accent was an "affectation", but that seems pretty flimsy.
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The *Wing Commander IV* novelization says that the thick accent in Wing Commander I & II was a put-on as part of his covert ops persona - presumably to explain the change when they switched actors.

I don't need to reconcile anything - Paladin's just played by a French (or... Turkish?) actor rather than a British or a pretend-Scottish one. If you weren't complaining that he went from a thin blond gentleman to a large black-haired one in a matter of months between WC2 and 3 then you shouldn't be complaining about this... Tcheky Karyo is an excellent actor and they were lucky to have him, regardless of his accent.

I think it's great that the fans try to find a way to make it work together but I don't quite understand the two ranks thing. Does Junior Grade equate to 2nd Lieutenant?

Game: 2nd Lieutenant

Movie: 1st Lieutenant/Lieutenant Junior Grade
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Lieutenant JG is another term for Naval Second Lieutenant. Neither of these ranks line up with their Space/Air Force equivalents. There's a cross-service chart here: https://www.wcnews.com/articles/ranks.shtml

Lastly, which book tried to tie everything together?
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I don't understand the question. Every book published after 1999 refers to things from the movie... but most of those were written during the development of the film (the exception being Arena's Star*Soldier manual).nSomething like the Confed Handbook (essentially the manual for the movie) wasnt' written to *tie together* anything, it was written before anyone had a bee in their bonnet about anything.
 
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Bandit LOAF said:
I'm not sure this is intentional - the shooting script actually has a line where they call him Maniac before he gets to the Tiger's Claw (it's dubbed over in the finished cut). The actual story of how Maniac got his callsign is from the Wing Commander I & II Ultimate Strategy Guide - and it happened at the Academy.
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But if he got the callsign Maniac in the academy:

WCMovie said:
Maniac?
Lieutenant Marshall.
He has a new call sign.
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How is this a new call sign from Angels/ Forbes' perspective?
 
Ok that was a lot thrown at me. Still didn't really answer the question for me on Angel and Blair's relationship explanation from the movie to the game. I knew kinda figured that the relation ship came out that way. Hell me and my brother loved angel in the first game. They also hint at in in Secret Missions two but nothing has really explained what happens in between. Just to fit in what happens. I know also Chris didn't create the whole story for the game or anything but we are talking about the movie that is why i was saying that. I'm just be curious about things. My guess for Angel and Forbes not knowing is because Todd Marshall never said anything about it. I know it sounds weird but its the best I can come up with. It just happens that she calls him maniac. Kinda funny right.
 
sorry kind of meant to edit the last one

I know also Chris didn't create the whole story for the game or anything but we are talking about the movie and the first game. that is why i was saying that. I'm just be curious about things. Also I do agree Tcheky Karyo was a lot better then a lot of people they could have got for the role of Paladin and he probably was the best actor in the whole movie. Only two people would have been better, A thin Davies or Sean Connery but made to look a little bit more like Taggart actually for the both of them ,~~~ they most likely a little too old for it though.

I will admit I love Wing Commander 3 a lot. My point is really they don't screw up continuity with the actual story. Actors and stuff can be messed with. They add new planes and ships and things like that but it still fits in the story without questions asked. The Victory is an old ship and might not be getting the new ships coming out in WC2. When Blair gets there being a hero that he is they get a look at the Excalibur. The Maniac thing too is a little fuzzy. It seems that blair since the first game never really liked Maniac. So them not liking each other in 3 doesn't bother me much. The battle of earth happened. Maniac still hasn't been promoted. He is on the Victory. Not the nicest thing. By the end of the game they seem to be better with each other. Its hard to say with that rivalry that they have together at least to me.. With Paladin, he still calls blair laddie that is all that matters to me, hehe.

My guess for Angel and Forbes not knowing is because Todd Marshall never said anything about it. I know it sounds weird but its the best I can come up with. It just happens that she calls him maniac. Kinda funny right.
 
True, but I'm still confused, in particular as to what you meant by not being certain it is intentional, that line from the movie makes it almost a statement of fact.
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'Almost' doesn't count in statements of fact.

As I already pointed around, that wasn't even the intent of the line - in the shooting script of the movie they refer to him as 'Maniac' while he's still on the Diligent... and they shot the movie with his 'Maniac' monster logo painted on the fighter the whole time.

Rereading the line the way you have is your gloss, nothing more. Taking it that way also brings up a host of other questions that the movie certainly doesn't address - what was his callsign *before* that, for instance?
 
Bandit LOAF said:
'Almost' doesn't count in statements of fact.

As I already pointed around, that wasn't even the intent of the line - in the shooting script of the movie they refer to him as 'Maniac' while he's still on the Diligent... and they shot the movie with his 'Maniac' monster logo painted on the fighter the whole time.
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My take was always that rosie *thinks* she coined it. Though that doesn't explain why she wouldn't see his maniac logo on his fighter. (though I'm not sure it's visible in the scene). She calls him maniac after the landing maneuver and he reiterates it in a fashion to show that it's his callsign already, only that she thinks it's new.
 
Also, keep in mind that Angel hasn't even met Maniac yet - he's in the rec room when she breaks up the fight, but they don't interact. The patrol takes place a few hours after he arrives on the Tiger's Claw... it isn't supposed to be "oh, my old friend changed his callsign!".
 
The actor who played Paladin in the movie did a fine job. I don't believe I made any comment to the contrary.

1.) So, Paladin actually speaks with a French accent then switches to Scottish for a covert operation and then finally settles on English when the whole thing is over? That's not a bad explanation. I orginally took the affectation thing to mean he was a bit of a joker- using different accents at different times. Your interpretation, while sort of the same as mine, gives more of a reason- which I appreciate. What was the nature of the operation?

2.) Every person in the game has two ranks? Is this a fan thing or does it come from the franchise?

Lastly, I'm not complaing- I'm asking questions. Obviously, you folks know more about it then I do- thus I ask questions. I apologize if I came off as complaing. Oh and it's awsome to run into another Stargate fan who's also into Wing Commander!

Edit
I just found this on the site:

James Taggart was born in 2609 on Ares, a self-sufficient space station orbiting Venus in the Sol system. His parents were terraforming engineers from Wick, Scotland, Earth, although James’ Scottish accent is known to fade when he is concentrating on important matters.

That would mean that the orginal accent would be Scottish. Was he also on a mission during the movie or is there another explanation?

-Ryan P. Fialcowitz
 
Apparently, I can't edit my posts- so I apologize for double posting.

As I said before I like that you folks try to connect all the products in the franchise but especially with the Paladin accent issue it just seems futile. It would have been very easy for Roberts to hire an actor who could have spoken with a Scottish or English accent. The fact that he didn't points to him rebooting or retconning the series. Yes, we can rationalize it all we want and maybe we should. I know issues like this bug the hell out of me.

I guess the only real answer we're ever likely to get is that Paladin is a chameleon with the accents.

Lastly, I'd like to thank Bandit for taking the time to answer my and others questions. Hopefully, the questions I posed in my last post will find reasonable answers in his next post.

-Ryan P. Fialcowitz
 
Rationalizing?

By your reasoning, Wing Commander 3 must be a reboot of the Wing Commander franchise because the main character goes from a nameless guy with a wrinkled forehead and blue hair to Mark Hamill. He certainly doesn't talk the same, either.

Likewise, Maniac goes from being a scrawny kid to being tall and stout.

A lot of changes have been made throughout the series. Just because people don't look or sound like what you think they should doesn't mean it's not an official part of the one Wing Commander timeline.
 
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