Admiral Tolwyn's Court Martial

frostytheplebe

Seventh Part of the Seal
I was just wondering about the facts surrounding his trial. "Guilty of Crimes against Humanity." I find to be someone... unspecific?

True we all saw what he did first hand, but what about his record of service to Confed? This Tolwyn fought for Confed during the Pilgrim War, and through the Kilrathi war entirely (40+ years). Not to mention that it was his heroism that helped expose the Kilrathi's plan to attack Sol while they were pursuing peace negotiations. It was his tactics that helped hault the attack on Earth, etc. etc. etc.

He may have been a fallen hero, but if it wasn't for him, no one would have been around to see him fall.

Does that mean he should not have been convicted? Of course not... but a lifetime of violence would derange ANY human beings mind. Perhaps a psycological evaluation and life imprisonment would have been sufficient? I don't know, execution just seemed a little harsh to me.
 
I think Tolwyn would've committed suicide anyway. Life imprisonment or death sentence, it probably wouldn't have mattered to him.
 
It's an interesting question. I'd argue that Tolwyn was the Confederation's greatest war hero, despite the Black Lance Affair, as well as the disaster with the Behemoth. But the Confederation also seemed all to willing to execute Blair for his defection to the Border Worlds. I would guess (of course it's all hypothetical) Tolwyn was going to be handed a heavy sentence despite his war record, just to dissaude anyone else from commiting crimes. The Terran Kilrathi War has to have it's fair share of heroes, they couldn't have everyone with a distingushed war record commiting crimes. While Tolwyn was certainly in poor mental shape, it's a good bet he was also being made an example of.
 
I think WC4 awnsered that question on it's own, he was a great strategist, warrior but how does a warrior cope when the war is over, and there is still fight left in him? he created his own war, in his own mind forgiving himself that it was to prepare mankind for a greater enemy that did not exist at the time.

He was committed for his crime, regardless of his past.
 
It's an interesting question. I'd argue that Tolwyn was the Confederation's greatest war hero, despite the Black Lance Affair, as well as the disaster with the Behemoth. But the Confederation also seemed all to willing to execute Blair for his defection to the Border Worlds. I would guess (of course it's all hypothetical) Tolwyn was going to be handed a heavy sentence despite his war record, just to dissaude anyone else from commiting crimes. The Terran Kilrathi War has to have it's fair share of heroes, they couldn't have everyone with a distingushed war record commiting crimes. While Tolwyn was certainly in poor mental shape, it's a good bet he was also being made an example of.

I agree with most of this in spirit, but I'm not sure I would say that it was happening as an example, or to prevent anyone else from committing crimes.

I think a public and heavy sentence was absolutely necessary due to the montrosity of his crimes and their extremely public nature. I mean, he used bio-weapons against a Border Worlds colony.

I don't know if you've ever watched JAG - or pretty much any show or movie dealing with a military court martial - but one of the key themes of the trial is always about the navy/army/air force/marine corps/special forces community 'circling the wagons' so to speak to protect their own. In WCIV the Confederation - and the military - need to send a clear message that they're NOT going to protect someone who commits so heinous a crime, and that they aren't merely going to give him a 'light' sentence as a token of appreciation for his war service.
 
I agree with most of this in spirit, but I'm not sure I would say that it was happening as an example, or to prevent anyone else from committing crimes.

I'd be hard-pressed to find a greater hero for Confed during the War. Tolwyn was right in the middle of the pre-war actions and played a small role in the opening engagement at McAuliffe. His service record reminds me of a story I read recounting a MoH recipient. The Chief of Naval Operations held out on giving his ok because he simply didn't believe anyone could do all that and survive.

I think a public and heavy sentence was absolutely necessary due to the montrosity of his crimes and their extremely public nature. I mean, he used bio-weapons against a Border Worlds colony.

Never mind the numerous attacks on civilian shipping, Confed and BW military installations.

I don't know if you've ever watched JAG - or pretty much any show or movie dealing with a military court martial - but one of the key themes of the trial is always about the navy/army/air force/marine corps/special forces community 'circling the wagons' so to speak to protect their own. In WCIV the Confederation - and the military - need to send a clear message that they're NOT going to protect someone who commits so heinous a crime, and that they aren't merely going to give him a 'light' sentence as a token of appreciation for his war service.

One could argue that Tolwyn already got his "light" sentence following the Behemoth debacle, which was heavily influenced by saving of Sol the year prior.
 
Tolwyn did get a life sentence, on account of his previous service. It doesn't happen in the game, but this was changed in the WC4 novel. And yes, he still committed suicide.

Personally, I never liked that particular change. I suppose it had some dramatic justification - it does feel rather silly to have a suicide scene right before an execution. Still, it always felt to me like Forstchen simply couldn't let go of his favourite character, and wanted to get across one more time that this was a great big hero. Sure, he was - but then he decided to engage in a vast conspiracy to commit something that goes beyond mass murder. And the thing about him is that he, most clearly, was not insane. His decisions were very much rational, and he was aware of how evil his actions were.

...Though, now that I think about it, there was no way for him to get it right - it was too bizarre for Tolwyn to kill himself rather than face a firing squad, so either the death sentence had to be changed so that Tolwyn could hang himself, or the suicide would have had to be removed so tha Tolwyn could face his execution.



BTW, note that justice is not some kind of "let's put his life on the scales and see how it balances out" thing. Tolwyn's previous actions are relevant only to historians, not to the judges - it wasn't his life that was on trial, it was his genocidal spree. Justice should never take into account what else someone had done, otherwise it's not justice. Just look at any celebrity trial, and listen to people's reactions if the trial ends with a lighter-than-expected punishment.
 
Tolwyn did
BTW, note that justice is not some kind of "let's put his life on the scales and see how it balances out" thing. Tolwyn's previous actions are relevant only to historians, not to the judges - it wasn't his life that was on trial, it was his genocidal spree. Justice should never take into account what else someone had done, otherwise it's not justice. Just look at any celebrity trial, and listen to people's reactions if the trial ends with a lighter-than-expected punishment.

I agree with you on this point. But as I'm sure you'd agree, the way things are is not always the way they should be. Two people charged with the same crime, a judge looks at the first a man who was beloved by the community, who had done great things with his life, often will get one sentence, whilst the man who shut himself away and, in the opinions of some people, wasted his life in books and video games, would most likely get the larger sentence. Fair? No. Justice? No. Does it happen? All the time.
 
I agree with you on this point. But as I'm sure you'd agree, the way things are is not always the way they should be. Two people charged with the same crime, a judge looks at the first a man who was beloved by the community, who had done great things with his life, often will get one sentence, whilst the man who shut himself away and, in the opinions of some people, wasted his life in books and video games, would most likely get the larger sentence. Fair? No. Justice? No. Does it happen? All the time.
Yes, but there is a difference between saying that it happens even though it shouldn't (as I do), and saying it happens and that's how it should be (which is what your first post said).
 
Personally, I never liked that particular change. I suppose it had some dramatic justification - it does feel rather silly to have a suicide scene right before an execution. Still, it always felt to me like Forstchen simply couldn't let go of his favourite character, and wanted to get across one more time that this was a great big hero. Sure, he was - but then he decided to engage in a vast conspiracy to commit something that goes beyond mass murder. And the thing about him is that he, most clearly, was not insane. His decisions were very much rational, and he was aware of how evil his actions were.

...Though, now that I think about it, there was no way for him to get it right - it was too bizarre for Tolwyn to kill himself rather than face a firing squad, so either the death sentence had to be changed so that Tolwyn could hang himself, or the suicide would have had to be removed so tha Tolwyn could face his execution.

I don't know if it really is bizarre that Tolwyn commits suicide just before his execution. Considering his actions during the Black Lance crisis he clearly was emotionally[/] destroyed after 40+ years of war.
That is why Tolwyn doesn't show any remorse for his actions. He has a rational (and in his mind a truthful) explanation to it all. Don't forget that one of the main resaons that Tolwyn starts the entire Black Lance project is because he thinks that the leadership of the Confederation has become weak and is failing to protect humanity.
I don't think Tolwyn is blind to the fact that he has fallen from grace in the eyes of the public, it is just that he considers himself to still be the same hero as before, if not even greater. So comitting suicide before his execution could have been his last act of defiance against a Confederation that has become weak.
 
Again, I disagree - "considering his actions during the Black Lance crisis", I have to say Tolwyn was a perfectly rational human being. He most definitely was not nuts - based on his actions during the crisis, at least. His suicide, the way it was presented in the game, though - that puts things in a different perspective.

As for the idea of suicide as an act of defiance, think about it for a moment and you'll realise how silly that sounds. He was a military man. He devoted his entire life to defiance in the face of death - to the idea that being defiant means standing calmly in front of the guy about to shoot you, and warning him that he'd better kill you with the first shot, cause he won't get a second.

Seriously, suicide before execution as an act of defiance? It's an act of childish, cowardly spite. It has nothing in common with an officer's honour, and everything in common with a child that breaks his toy rather than let anyone else play with it.
 
I don't think Tolwyn's suicide was an act of defiance so much as desperation. By the end of WC4 he is extremely paranoid and scared out of his mind. According to the novel he knows at least a little bit about the Mantu coming and his fears are that the human race will not be ready or capable to fight them. He became Space Marshal and had the clout, prestige, and rank to do something about it. When he was convicted, for the very actions he meant to save humanity, and sentenced to death it was a further stripping away of his control. His suicide, ironically a cowardly act, allowed him to assert some control over all that was left to him, his life.
He undoubtedly knew what he was doing was wrong, but there was no other choice for him. He knew that once the Confederation had time to settle down the politicians would storm in and start drawing the fleet down to save money, and that prospect horrified him. He knew that the civilians would continue to weaken themselves until another threat presented itself and before they could carry this suicidal drive to far to come back from, he decided to present that threat. Give them a limited conflict that would keep the military prominent and necessary in the minds of the people.
Anyway that's my read on him.
 
Personally I based my opinion of him being less than sane by the original game trailor

In the world of the future, the alien invaders have finally been vanquished... But one man, deranged by war, unleashes his vengeance on a helpless people.
 
Yeah, and Skynet sent a robot back in time to protect John Connor.

Nothing everything in a trailer or theme segment is 100% correct (the above being an extreme example).
 
Again, I disagree - "considering his actions during the Black Lance crisis", I have to say Tolwyn was a perfectly rational human being. He most definitely was not nuts - based on his actions during the crisis, at least. His suicide, the way it was presented in the game, though - that puts things in a different perspective.

As for the idea of suicide as an act of defiance, think about it for a moment and you'll realise how silly that sounds. He was a military man. He devoted his entire life to defiance in the face of death - to the idea that being defiant means standing calmly in front of the guy about to shoot you, and warning him that he'd better kill you with the first shot, cause he won't get a second.

Seriously, suicide before execution as an act of defiance? It's an act of childish, cowardly spite. It has nothing in common with an officer's honour, and everything in common with a child that breaks his toy rather than let anyone else play with it.

Isnt that what several war criminals have done historically, taking their lives themselves rather than beeing executed. For Tolwyn it could be his way of expressing that he still thought he was right and no judge had the right to sentence him for what he did. Therefore taking his live. Its him who decides when he goes not them. In that its quite an act of defiance from his point of view.
 
Personally I based my opinion of him being less than sane by the original game trailor

I think it was a actually a mistake for Origin/EA to market WC4 that way. I would have rather liked to have been genuinely shocked at Tolwyn's actions but everyone pretty much knew that he was the bad guy because of the advertising.
 
I think it was a actually a mistake for Origin/EA to market WC4 that way. I would have rather liked to have been genuinely shocked at Tolwyn's actions but everyone pretty much knew that he was the bad guy because of the advertising.

I have to agree with that, it should have been a shock!
 
I must have missed all the trailers prior to the first time I played, because I didn't realize Tolwyn was the villian until about half way through. I wasn't surprised, but starting out I didn't know.
 
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