A discussion on the true nature of the Nephilim
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They uncovered the conspiracy, disabled the Lexington, found the Black Lance's base, destroyed the Vesuvius, and got to Earth in spite of everything the BL could do. That's a heck of lot better than Confed did against the Black Lance in WC4.
As for the BW not wanting anything to do with Confed, I'm not sure about that. They seemed pretty friendly at the end of WC4, in WC
we have Border Worlds officers (Wilford, Dekker, Hawk) serving with Confed, and in the SO docs we have Confed helping out with recovery operations on the frontier.Best, Raptor
Quarto
Unknown Enemy
Supdon: And risk all out war? Attacking sovereign Kilrathi territory is not a wise course of action. You could get embroiled in the civil war... or worse - you could end the civil war, by becoming the common enemy. At any rate, the facts speak for themselves: the Valgard pirates, based just one jump point away from BW territory, terrorised space lanes in Epsilon Sector (and please, don't tell me they only attacked Confed targets) for five months. And it was the Confederation that finally smoked them out. That would indicate some sort of hesitation - five months worth of hesitation - on the Border Worlders' part, don't you think?
Raptor: disabling the Lexington was a success, but all it enabled them to do was run away. Destroying the Vesuvius was only possible thanks to Confed support (TCS Mount St. Helens). And finding the base and uncovering the conspiracy would have amounted to nothing had Blair failed in the Senate. You wanna see how the Border Worlds would really fare against the Black Lance? Try "only fools rush in"
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I agree, though, that it would be wrong to say that BW wants nothing to do with Confed. Clearly, a lot has been done to repair their relationship since '73.
Raptor: disabling the Lexington was a success, but all it enabled them to do was run away. Destroying the Vesuvius was only possible thanks to Confed support (TCS Mount St. Helens). And finding the base and uncovering the conspiracy would have amounted to nothing had Blair failed in the Senate. You wanna see how the Border Worlds would really fare against the Black Lance? Try "only fools rush in"
.I agree, though, that it would be wrong to say that BW wants nothing to do with Confed. Clearly, a lot has been done to repair their relationship since '73.
Supdon3
Kal-El
These are a rough and tumble people whose lives and livelyhoods were being threatened by those raids. If they were in a position to give chase I have no doubt that they would. We know from Kilrathi history, that if they were able to persue a war they would, treaty or no. One Border World raid into thier territory wouldnt change the status quo. Space is a large place. They probably couldnt FIND them for five months. It finally took ConFed's resources to be able to flush them out.
Raptor: disabling the Lexington was a success, but all it enabled them to do was run away. Destroying the Vesuvius was only possible thanks to Confed support (TCS Mount St. Helens). And finding the base and uncovering the conspiracy would have amounted to nothing had Blair failed in the Senate. You wanna see how the Border Worlds would really fare against the Black Lance? Try "only fools rush in"
What we saw in the losing endgame of WC4 wasn't the Black Lance. That was the full might of Confed coming down on the Border Worlders (which of course is a fight the Border Worlders would lose), the result of what happens if you fail to expose the conspiracy and Tolwyn fools Confed into following his plans.
As for the disabling of the Lexington, yes, it allowed them to run away, but it also took the Black lance's major mobile asset and allowed the Border Worlders time to expose the conspiracy. The destruction the Vesuvius involved the St. Helens, yes, but also the Intrepid and the Princetown (a carrier the Border Worlders had captured from the Black Lancers.) The killing blow was delivered by a fighter and a weapon the Border Worlders had captured from the Black Lance.
Best, Raptor
Quarto
Unknown Enemy
Raptor: The point of that ending is that it showed what chances BW had once the Black Lance was unveiled and unleashed. Yes, most of the ships were Confed, but how much do you think they would have to do? Confed forces would arrive at a planet, to find a few survivors of the Gen-Select device. The Border Worlds Militia would have been squashed by flash-pak carrying Lances/Dragons. Why didn't this happen during the crisis itself? Because the Black Lance didn't want to reveal their weapons on a full scale. Had the Dragons been used offensively against Border Worlds military ships, Tolwyn's 'blame it on the Border Worlds' theory would have been shot down as well.
Supdon: It's possible that the Kilrathi would not react to one raid... but is it worth the risk? I wouldn't think so, considering how unstable Kilrathi society is right now.
But anyway, that's besides the point. I was originally arguing that the Border Worlds don't have the resources to defeat Kilrathi raiders, which is something you seem to agree with, since you point out that it took Confed's resources to track down the Demon's Eye Pack.
[Edited by Quarto on 06-24-2001 at 07:39]
Supdon: It's possible that the Kilrathi would not react to one raid... but is it worth the risk? I wouldn't think so, considering how unstable Kilrathi society is right now.
But anyway, that's besides the point. I was originally arguing that the Border Worlds don't have the resources to defeat Kilrathi raiders, which is something you seem to agree with, since you point out that it took Confed's resources to track down the Demon's Eye Pack.
[Edited by Quarto on 06-24-2001 at 07:39]
I believe it was a lot simpler. Those ships wern't unleashed because they weren't there. Remember what Seether and Tolwyn were talking about in the WC4 novel? They had only four squadrons of Dragons, of which one was captured by the Border Worlders, one lost with Speradon weapons complex, and two with the Vesuvius. Similarly, the Lexinton is reffered to as the Project's major mobile asset. The Black Lance wasn't a massive military, it was a terrorist organisation that was trying to con Confed into doing its dirty work for it. It didn't have any hidden army waiting in the wings.
Best, Raptor
Quarto
Unknown Enemy
It... didn't... need... an army. Four squadrons of flash-pak wielding, gen-select-carrying Dragons should have been enough to cut the Border Worlds fleet into little cat-chunks. We're talking about fighters who can uncloak five metres in front of a target, fire off a flash-pak, and re-cloak. And yet, they didn't do anything - why? Because they weren't allowed to reveal themselves. Because when you're trying to blame some for something, it would be pretty damned stupid to attack him with your super-secret terrorist organisation's super-secret fighters.
Ah, time to utilize my half-baked Black Lance knowledge...
The BL probably could have taken the Border Worlders. What with their cloakable ships, if they were smart, they could have decimated the BW fleet with a good strategic use of the Flashpak. On the other hand, the BW did have a "mongrel fighting spirit". But, that's useless against a Flashpak.
The BW got a break in getting the data Eisen had, in acquiring the Princeton, and in having the greatest non-genetically-engineered ace this side of the sector. If they didn't have even one of those breaks, they would have been plastered when they tried to make a run on Earth to state their case.
The BL probably could have taken the Border Worlders. What with their cloakable ships, if they were smart, they could have decimated the BW fleet with a good strategic use of the Flashpak. On the other hand, the BW did have a "mongrel fighting spirit". But, that's useless against a Flashpak.
The BW got a break in getting the data Eisen had, in acquiring the Princeton, and in having the greatest non-genetically-engineered ace this side of the sector. If they didn't have even one of those breaks, they would have been plastered when they tried to make a run on Earth to state their case.
Having just spent all of what must have been 2 hours to read this immence thread, I am dissapointed an how the discussion has degraded to argueing over the might of the border worlds. I think that the discussion on the nature of the Nephilim was great and I think that some very good points were made.
Now to add my opinion to the fray.
#1) The Nephilim DO outnumber us immensely. There are just too many in game reference to try and argue otherwise. For instance, having just gone through the game the Midway pilots totaled over 4000 ememy kills and they lost less than 10 if thier own.
#2) It is obvious that the force sent through the gate was not purely for recon. I believe that they went there with the specific intent of destroying the Kilrathi and had no idea that they'd encounter us Humans. Note that if thier intention was destroying the Kilrathi they succeeded VERY well.
#3) I think that it is obvious that there was no difficulty for the Midway to eliminate the wormhole. However, this is beacuse the bugs weren't prepared to engage in a tactacal battle. They sent a *small* attack force through the gate with the mission of destroying the Kilrathi, with guns blazing, on what they assumed was the largest fleet in the region. Then they set up comm stations and other infrastructure for finishing the Kilrathi's off.
#4) I think that The idea of the Nephilim being part of a greater whole hits the nail on the head. They are strictly too stupid to command such a immence might as they do without command. They acts like automatons throughout all of WCP and SOPs. All it took was a few intelligent tactical moves from ONE horribly outnumbered and outgunned Confederation carrier and the Nephilim were forced to pull out.
#5) Whoever is in control of the Nephilim will now be able to restucture its army and give it a new set of attack parameters. One that includes the destruction of Sol. Given that they have immence numbers and that the Nephilim are very adept at carrying out orders, I think pendall was correct in assuming that if the bugs put their minds to it (or more likely their "bosses" tell them to) they could eliminate the Confederation in one fell swoop.
Anyhoo, thats all for now I suppose.
Now to add my opinion to the fray.
#1) The Nephilim DO outnumber us immensely. There are just too many in game reference to try and argue otherwise. For instance, having just gone through the game the Midway pilots totaled over 4000 ememy kills and they lost less than 10 if thier own.
#2) It is obvious that the force sent through the gate was not purely for recon. I believe that they went there with the specific intent of destroying the Kilrathi and had no idea that they'd encounter us Humans. Note that if thier intention was destroying the Kilrathi they succeeded VERY well.
#3) I think that it is obvious that there was no difficulty for the Midway to eliminate the wormhole. However, this is beacuse the bugs weren't prepared to engage in a tactacal battle. They sent a *small* attack force through the gate with the mission of destroying the Kilrathi, with guns blazing, on what they assumed was the largest fleet in the region. Then they set up comm stations and other infrastructure for finishing the Kilrathi's off.
#4) I think that The idea of the Nephilim being part of a greater whole hits the nail on the head. They are strictly too stupid to command such a immence might as they do without command. They acts like automatons throughout all of WCP and SOPs. All it took was a few intelligent tactical moves from ONE horribly outnumbered and outgunned Confederation carrier and the Nephilim were forced to pull out.
#5) Whoever is in control of the Nephilim will now be able to restucture its army and give it a new set of attack parameters. One that includes the destruction of Sol. Given that they have immence numbers and that the Nephilim are very adept at carrying out orders, I think pendall was correct in assuming that if the bugs put their minds to it (or more likely their "bosses" tell them to) they could eliminate the Confederation in one fell swoop.
Anyhoo, thats all for now I suppose.
I'd forgotten all about the Steltek, its been a looooooong time since I've played Privateer. In the game there is a long "Winning Path" that you can follow and at the end of it you go on a series of mapping missions into uncharted space and eventually met up with a superpowerful "pod" type ship. This is the Steltek.
As for the "Alligned People" thats just conjecture. Its because the bugs refer to us as "The Non-Alligned" in thier communications.
As for the "Alligned People" thats just conjecture. Its because the bugs refer to us as "The Non-Alligned" in thier communications.
Supdon3
Kal-El
I havent actually played much of Privateer either but from what i gather, the Steltek are an advanced race who dont do much in this galaxy any more, but one of their drones is accidentally reactivated and goes on a destruction rampage through space. Eventually you find a Steltek gun which is the only thing capable of destroying the drone. After you do the Steltek let you keep the gun and disappear from the galaxy forever.
But..with...four....squadrons...of...Dragons....they...lost.
We're talking about the Black Lance as they are, not as they could have been in an alternative universe where everything is differant and they could fight any way they wanted. Their own *chosen* mode of operations put a limit on them, and under those conditions the Border Worlders were able to defeat them. That's what I was talking about when I said the Border Worlders were able to beat the Black Lance. We can spin alternate and "what if" scenarios till we're blue in the face, but as it happened for real in WC:4, the Border Worlders *did* beat them. Best, Raptor
Nep, war is all about who makes the most of their opportunities. The Border Worlders did, and the Black Lance didn't, and it's as simple as that. Now, if things had happened differantly, would the Border Worlders have been creamed by the Black Lance? Certainly. Just like, say, if things had happened differently, the RAF would have been creamed by the Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britain, and the US navy would have been creamed by the larger Japanese fleet at the battle of Midway. Now, we can certainly, spin a case where things worked out the way we "want" it to, but we can make just about any argument doing that.
Now, we can say that if the Black lance had fought openly, they could have creamed the Border Worlders, but that overlooks the fundamental nature of the Black Lance. By *nature*, they're a covert group geared towards terrorist tactics rather than a group that fights openly. They had to be, beacuse to do anything else would blow their cover wide open. That is definite and unremovable constraint the Black Lancers face, just like the Border Worlders face the restraint of their older technology. Take that away, and they're not the Black Lance anymore, justanother arm of Confed. And we're not talikng about Confed vs the BW here, we're talking about the Black Lance vs the BW.
Best, Raptor
Best, Raptor