Wing Commander Invasion

[frostytheplebe]

Has anyone tried this Empires At War mod that adds in Wing Commander ships?

I know it's only in the beta field, but I've tried it, and though I did love the combination of Star Wars and Confed ships, there are a few things I think could use improvement:

The Concordia model looks too cartoonish.

WAAAAY too many fighters. I mean seriously, the board is covered with them within a few seconds.

Perhaps it's just me, but why is Tolwyn's flagship the Midway?

 

[Major A Payne]

frosty. Which version are you trying and what game mode are you playing?? The mod has always had problems with the GC side of the game and this will be worked on at a later time. As for the Confederation class, what would you suggest?? Textures aren't something which I've ever been any good with which is why I settled for the original version textures. Also what would you for Tolwyns flagship, baring in mind that the midway variant (the one thats currently in use) is the heaviest ship available.

With regards to the fighters. Again what would you suggest?? The capital ships in v1.5 and v2.0 aren't in squadrons so theres a hell of alot less than with v1.0.

I'm always open to suggestions of any kind so feel free to give me a yell. I'm on MSN or just post if you like.

 

[frostytheplebe]

frosty. Which version are you trying and what game mode are you playing?? The mod has always had problems with the GC side of the game and this will be worked on at a later time. As for the Confederation class, what would you suggest?? Textures aren't something which I've ever been any good with which is why I settled for the original version textures. Also what would you for Tolwyns flagship, baring in mind that the midway variant (the one thats currently in use) is the heaviest ship available.

With regards to the fighters. Again what would you suggest?? The capital ships in v1.5 and v2.0 aren't in squadrons so theres a hell of alot less than with v1.0.

I'm always open to suggestions of any kind so feel free to give me a yell. I'm on MSN or just post if you like.

Oh sorry, I actually stumbled across it on Google, didn't know you were on here, or I would have said directly. Yeah I'm playing on GC but also in the normal skirmish mode.

To answer your questions, and feel free to take w/e Ideas you want, I don't mind brainstorming.

For starters, decrease the number of fighters flying off the carriers. The board gets filled way too quickly and it's hard to control the capships sometimes. Even though they only come out in singles, there are still alot, it's very hard to keep a handle on your fleets.

Secondly... for the Concordia, I'm afraid I just don't know, but it does kind of look out of place, although I would equip it with the PTC, possibly make it like the Zahn base weapon that blows up one weapon on enemy ships.

As for your characters, I would do it as follows:

Tolwyn- TCS Concordia, Confed Class dreadnought OR on the Vesuvius
Eisen- Ranger
Blair: ... keep him on the TC I suppose
Maniac- Put him in command of the Black Widows
Thrakath should be on the big dreadnought
Personally, I think the Behemoth should be bigger, like the size of Darth Vader's star destroyer.

Other then that, I think the game is great. I love the idea and I do especially like that you can pit Confed with the Rebel alliance against the Imps and Kilrathi. I was very impressed with how it was done.

BTW if I'm not mistaken, the midway is listed as a Confed class.

So like I said, take w/e you want from this. Ideas I'm full of (if nothing else.)

 

[Major A Payne]

Lower the amount of fighters?? Well thats not a problem and I suppose I could drop the amount and just have more in reserve as a counter balance to the suggestion.

With regards to the Confederation class. There really is only three options open. Keep the current ship the way it is, remove it completely or replace it with something a bit more suitable and not so cartoonish. I do have several non-canon capital ships which could be added instead so thats not a problem. As for your weapon suggestion. Unfortunately, its not just the simple matter of giving the ship that particular weapon (which would make life so much easier if it was), as it will take alot of checking to see how the ZC starbase canon fires. I remember doing some extensive testing to get the hyper velocity canon weapon effect to work with the midway, but was a complete failure. However, I'm not going to just dismiss the idea so I'll give it a try.

Heroes changes aren't a problem, but wasn't Tolwyn a fleet admiral?? With the Midway variant being the "supposed" best ship available to the player it stands to reason that it would be his ship. However, again, not a problem. Perhaps a change of ship might be better for his.

Eisen?? I take it you mean the hero Plunkett. If thats the case I only attached him to that particular ship due to a request for a hero Plunkett and at the time he was the only "hero" unit without a ship. Also the Ranger isn't exactly a very powerful ship either and tends not to last long in a fight.

When you say Black Widows, do you mean a squadron with that name, or the actual fighter class?? As of v1.5 there is a Black Widow Class fighter included. Then again what class of fighter did he actually fly and by what name did that squadron go by?? (thats a question that I can't personally answer so I'm open to using the corrected squadron type and name).

Now with v2.0 there is a second, more powerful Dreadnought, so which would you suggest?? (Images are located in the other thread of mine slightly further down the forum or on my MODDB profile images section)

Resizing the Behemoth isn't a problem, but it is very poorly armed compared to other ships. One important problem that is inherent with this game is when a unit gets to a certain size it begins to suffer pathing problems. Even Vadars executor just doesn't move correctly when in play and thats been stated over on the official petroglyph forums.

I'll check on the Midway, and its possible your right. Even the most cautious of modders can still miss these small things and its usually players ans testers who notice them.


A few things to note. Remember that this mod is far from over even with the current content level. Theres still the planned Galactic Campaigns (although looking over your comment I'm wondering if keeping the original SW selection of GC's might be prudent to give a certain "flexibility" of usage and availability of ground combat (which is where my original test GC failed)), and I'm hoping to put together a selection of skirmish maps which (I'm told), can be up to 100,000 by 100,000 playing squares in size, which might leave a lot more room to manouver. Theres also the third side and pirate replacements to sort out, plus a stack of additions for things such as celestial bodies (planets and moons) and map based stations and props, so as you can see I'm nowhere finished yet.

 

[frostytheplebe]

Lower the amount of fighters?? Well thats not a problem and I suppose I could drop the amount and just have more in reserve as a counter balance to the suggestion.

That would be good, I mean I don't have a problem with fighters, but it seemed like the point of the space campaigns was massive capship fights, and having huge amounts of fighters off of each cap ship sort of defeats the purpose. Most of the ships you put in were awesome, and I think they'll continue to go over well.

With regards to the Confederation class. There really is only three options open. Keep the current ship the way it is, remove it completely or replace it with something a bit more suitable and not so cartoonish. I do have several non-canon capital ships which could be added instead so thats not a problem. As for your weapon suggestion. Unfortunately, its not just the simple matter of giving the ship that particular weapon (which would make life so much easier if it was), as it will take alot of checking to see how the ZC starbase canon fires. I remember doing some extensive testing to get the hyper velocity canon weapon effect to work with the midway, but was a complete failure. However, I'm not going to just dismiss the idea so I'll give it a try.

Well if it comes down to that, leave it as is. I liked having the Confed class in there. It's a decently balanced ship but it looks slightly out of place. Perhaps just darken the colors if possible so it doesn't stand out. Other then that, leave it in. If the PTC can't be brought about then thats ok. The ship itself is tough.

Heroes changes aren't a problem, but wasn't Tolwyn a fleet admiral?? With the Midway variant being the "supposed" best ship available to the player it stands to reason that it would be his ship. However, again, not a problem. Perhaps a change of ship might be better for his.

"Supposed to be" I guess, but I just think it would make more sense. If you want to put a Hero on the Midway, put Blair as the ship was his idea.

Eisen?? I take it you mean the hero Plunkett. If thats the case I only attached him to that particular ship due to a request for a hero Plunkett and at the time he was the only "hero" unit without a ship. Also the Ranger isn't exactly a very powerful ship either and tends not to last long in a fight.

Hero Plunket yes. Well if you think about it, neither is the Corellian Corvette, but it got Captain Antillies as a hero.

When you say Black Widows, do you mean a squadron with that name, or the actual fighter class?? As of v1.5 there is a Black Widow Class fighter included. Then again what class of fighter did he actually fly and by what name did that squadron go by?? (thats a question that I can't personally answer so I'm open to using the corrected squadron type and name).

I mean the Black Widow squadron from the midway. Or perhaps his Morningstar squadron. Either way works.

Now with v2.0 there is a second, more powerful Dreadnought, so which would you suggest?? (Images are located in the other thread of mine slightly further down the forum or on my MODDB profile images section)

For Thrak? The one he was on in WC3.

Resizing the Behemoth isn't a problem, but it is very poorly armed compared to other ships. One important problem that is inherent with this game is when a unit gets to a certain size it begins to suffer pathing problems. Even Vadars executor just doesn't move correctly when in play and thats been stated over on the official petroglyph forums./QUOTE]

Well that's your call, but even being poorly armed, it would be more realistic in terms of the WC story surrounding that ship.

A few things to note. Remember that this mod is far from over even with the current content level. Theres still the planned Galactic Campaigns (although looking over your comment I'm wondering if keeping the original SW selection of GC's might be prudent to give a certain "flexibility" of usage and availability of ground combat (which is where my original test GC failed)), and I'm hoping to put together a selection of skirmish maps which (I'm told), can be up to 100,000 by 100,000 playing squares in size, which might leave a lot more room to manouver. Theres also the third side and pirate replacements to sort out, plus a stack of additions for things such as celestial bodies (planets and moons) and map based stations and props, so as you can see I'm nowhere finished yet.

That would be really cool too. Please don't take what I'm saying as a negative, I love the game and I love the mod so far. It was an easy install and I love the ships so far. Are you planning on adding in voices at all? Perhaps your level 5 Starbase could be Ellis or something like that. Just a thought.

 

[Major A Payne]

frosty. I rarely take things the wrong way unless its a direct attack on something I've done. Any suggestions you have will always be taken into account. I've already lowered the amount of fighters launched from the carriers as well as resizing the Behemoth. I'll contineu to look over your current suggestions and see whats viable and what isn't.

 

[frostytheplebe]

frosty. I rarely take things the wrong way unless its a direct attack on something I've done. Any suggestions you have will always be taken into account. I've already lowered the amount of fighters launched from the carriers as well as resizing the Behemoth. I'll contineu to look over your current suggestions and see whats viable and what isn't.

Very good, btw I love your model of the Vesuvius, don't change that, it's awesome.

 

[ChrisReid]

Oh sorry, I actually stumbled across it on Google, didn't know you were on here, or I would have said directly.

You found it on Google and not from the dozens from front page updates we've posted about the mod?

Tolwyn- TCS Concordia, Confed Class dreadnought OR on the Vesuvius
Eisen- Ranger

Arena clarifies that the light carrier we see in WC3 like the TCS Victory is Yorktown class.

 

[frostytheplebe]

You found it on Google and not from the dozens from front page updates we've posted about the mod? .

I know right? Kinda mad at myself for that one.

Arena clarifies that the light carrier we see in WC3 like the TCS Victory is Yorktown class.

I should have brought this up too. In Invasion, she's still classified as a Ranger, which is why I said that.

 

[Gimpy]

Great mod so far, I've been following and updating as the new versions have been rolled out. With version 2.0 being released, I thought I'd bring some new bugs to your attention and throw in a few thoughts. Also, perhaps clear up some canon from the various games.

In version 2.0, I have noticed the Confed starbase has an anti-fighter hardpoint that is indestructible and making it impossible to destroy the structure...which is kinda cool if your losing . The new Kilrathi dreadnoughts forward weapons do not fire unless a ship is very close, something I've also noticed in other mods utilizing "large" ships. Lastly, Thrakhath's Snakier does not engage any targets, it just sits there and looks pretty.

Frosty had some good ideas of tweaking, which I can elaborate on some:

1. Tolwyn was dead prior to the Midway being introduced, he'd be right at home on the hero Vesuvius or even a hero Concordia with a phase transit cannon (rename the generic Concordia's the Confederation class).

2. The Concordia does look cartoonish because it was introduced prior to bit mapping (WC3) and was a 16-bit sprite. A reskin to the steel plate hull textures in WC4 would make it look right at home.

3. Eisen could either be a hero version of a Ranger carrier or the St. Helens (Vesuvius class). The canon prior to Arena points out the TCS Victory is a Ranger, the TCS Lexington and Princeton from WC4 are the Yorktown class. Origin reused the model from WC3 for WC4 rather than create something new. The significant difference being the Yorktown class is the same design, just much larger to carry more fighters.

4. The Black Widow squadron Frosty was referring to was a Tigershark squadron flying from the Midway. Maniac deserves something better to fly than crappy Tigersharks .

5. I would suggest that Blair be replace Tolwyn as the hero Midway.

6. Thrakhath could be used in multiple ways. He is normally associated with flying the most advanced Kilrathi fighters but was known to command from a capital ship (more notably an advanced destroyer in WC2 and the dreadnought in WC3). A few ace squadrons for the Kilrathi would be a good addition.

A rather radical addition could be an evolution system when upgrading your starbase. In another SWEAW mod, I believe it was Absolute Corruption Mod, the models were set up in a chronological order relating to different time periods. For example, the X-wing would evolve into the E-wing when upgrading so to speak. A similar system would really transform your mod into something that can encompass the entire WC series. It would be a major undertaking and obviously be a serious burden on your part, I have no complaints with the mod as is .

Again, a great piece of work on your part and looking forward to future revisions.

 

[AD]

3. Eisen could either be a hero version of a Ranger carrier or the St. Helens (Vesuvius class). The canon prior to Arena points out the TCS Victory is a Ranger, the TCS Lexington and Princeton from WC4 are the Yorktown class. Origin reused the model from WC3 for WC4 rather than create something new. The significant difference being the Yorktown class is the same design, just much larger to carry more fighters.

This is incorrect. Per WC4 the Lexington is a Concordia Class. We are actually never told what class the Victory in WC3 was until Arena. The idea that it was a Ranger was a somewhat accepted yet incorrect fan extrapolation based on a missread quote from one of the novels.

4. The Black Widow squadron Frosty was referring to was a Tigershark squadron flying from the Midway. Maniac deserves something better to fly than crappy Tigersharks.

The Tigershark is actually quite effective in multiplayer WC Prophecy. It's rocket pods and charging mass drivers mixed with a decent speed actually give it a nice edge against similarly classed fighters. The exceptions are the WCP super fighters like the Vampire and Devestator.

 

[Gimpy]

Thanks for pointing that out AD, the Lexington and Princeton were both Concordia carriers, havent played WC4 in nearly 12 years . Also, the Black Widows flew Panthers and Shrikes as well as the Tigershark, remembered that after the fact. In the hands of a skilled pilot, even the Piranha is a dangerous opponent. As for the Victory's true class designation, this is one of those debatable things similar to a lot of canon from Warhammer 40K where something is published, then a few years later something else comes along that contradicts it. It would be worthwhile to mention that on several sites, including the WCIC's old encyclopedia (not the ships database or the Wiki) the Victory is still listed as Ranger class.

 

[Major A Payne]

A thousand thanks for those bugs found. I'll do some investigating and see what might be wrong. As for the suggestions. I'll look over them after the bugs have been squashed.

A rather radical addition could be an evolution system when upgrading your starbase. In another SWEAW mod, I believe it was Absolute Corruption Mod, the models were set up in a chronological order relating to different time periods. For example, the X-wing would evolve into the E-wing when upgrading so to speak. A similar system would really transform your mod into something that can encompass the entire WC series. It would be a major undertaking and obviously be a serious burden on your part, I have no complaints with the mod as is .

Theres still lots to do before I can do any tweaking of this type, but to be honest, the current setup might be most useful if and when I can get the planned GC's to work. I've had some serious problems with getting the AI to move its fat ass and actually go from its home planet.

Anyway, if the bugs are serious enough and I can replicate them then I'll release an interim quick fix patch, just to stop the game from getting to boring (although space tends to be fairly boring to begin with).

 

[AD]

As for the Victory's true class designation, this is one of those debatable things similar to a lot of canon from Warhammer 40K where something is published, then a few years later something else comes along that contradicts it. It would be worthwhile to mention that on several sites, including the WCIC's old encyclopedia (not the ships database or the Wiki) the Victory is still listed as Ranger class.

There really isn't any debate. It's a Yorktown, per Star*Soldier. The original "Ranger" designation was *never* official despite what it may have been listed at even here at the CIC once upon a time. Some of our Staff (fans) were partly responsible for starting that particular assumption. There is zero canon material that refers to the Victory as a Ranger Class. Some of the old encyclopedia articles are severely out of date. They really haven't been maintained at all since Arena came out in favor of the WCpedia wiki project.

 

[Gimpy]

A thousand thanks for those bugs found. I'll do some investigating and see what might be wrong. As for the suggestions. I'll look over them after the bugs have been squashed.

Theres still lots to do before I can do any tweaking of this type, but to be honest, the current setup might be most useful if and when I can get the planned GC's to work. I've had some serious problems with getting the AI to move its fat ass and actually go from its home planet.

Anyway, if the bugs are serious enough and I can replicate them then I'll release an interim quick fix patch, just to stop the game from getting to boring (although space tends to be fairly boring to begin with).

It was quite interesting when I cranked up the Comp AI to hard just to purposely see how quickly I could be overrun and knocked out of the game. While I had no intention of winning, that indestructible hardpoint gave me the opportunity to build a fleet that maxed out the pop before deploying them and pushed the cats back across the map. Even after suffering horrendous casualties, I still ended up with a kill ratio roughly 5-1 .

Another thing I've noticed (that may or may not be related to the AI) is that if you tell a larger ship to attack an enemy target, more than likely the model will swing into a broadside position preventing it from utilizing its more destructive weaponry such as mass drivers and torpedoes with a front firing arc.

 

[Major A Payne]

I've noticed that as well. I think its more a case of the game engine being assanine as it also does it with the stock game and expansion.

 

[Gimpy]

Aside from adding extra hardpoints which can unbalance firepower, is it possible to adjust firing arcs?

 

[Major A Payne]

Yes but its something that is fairly new to me, so to speak. I only recently learned the necessary part of the XML entries which defines the actual fire arcs. I think it'll just be a bit of messing more that anything and see what comes.

 

[Gimpy]

I poked through the XML files and noticed those, though I know better than to play with things like that since they're not one of my many talents . On a side note, I deleted my original upgrade from 1.5 to 2.0, then did a fresh install. The same bugs I noticed before are still present, I was kinda hoping it was something I didnt overwrite correctly the first time . That being said, you and the other modders that are making or have made quality projects deserve more praise for keeping this genre alive until someone creates another retail product worth playing.

 

[frostytheplebe]

Um... the black widows were a Panther Squadron, and those were my fav fighters in the game. However if you feel those don't do it for you, then give him the Morningstar squadron.