Why wasn't Colonel Blair...

[Delance]

Originally posted by Haesslich
Tolwyn: you've ignored all the other data we've given you for WC2 to argue in favor of your pet theory, instead of confronting it with facts.

I did not ignore. I don't have to prove Tolwyn ALWAYS went into combat that way, just that he sometimes did. That's not hard to prove, people just have to play WC2, WC3 or watch WCA. It's you who choose to ignore it because it doesn't fit with your personal conception of the WC universe, which is flawed.

To emphasize: I don’t have to prove that generals and commodores fought on the front lines all the time, just that it did happen occasionally. That’s the whole point. Same thing with Thrakkath, that only did fly the Bloodfang into combat on special occasions.

You've ignored again and again the statements, examples, and the like brought up for WHY you don't send the fucking General out to fight the battle. He fights the WAR. You know... the campaign that the battle's only a small part of?

Sometimes they fight behind a desk. Sometimes they fight on the front lines. Actually, in history is very common to have generals leading the battle themselves, and I gave numerous examples. There are many, many more. But what's the point? You just ignore reality when it doesn’t suite your own pre-conceived notions. You just have to know everything, so any fact that proves you wrong cannot exist in your mind, you either denies it or ignores it outright. Or didn’t Alexander the Great constantly lead personally leads the Calvary charge against the Persians?

Implicit evidence: WHERE? We've pointed out that the Colonels do go out to fight, but the Generals and Admirals USUALLY stay
at home or at least in battle groups.

Well, you just defeated your own point here. Usually, but not alaways. In certain occasions, they go there and fight in the front lines.

As for the implicit evidence, there's the fact that, in more the one occasion, commanding officers did fly combat missions. Drake didn't mention any such rule when trying to prevent Blair from flying. Paladin also said his age was what stopped him from flying a fighter, not his rank.

As for Blair and the tapes, it's where you are completely wrong. The tapes are about the fighter group briefing. They have nothing to do with running the ship. If anything, you could accuse Wilford was the Intrepid’s true Wing Commander, while Blair was just running the ship. As for evidence, here it is:

Eisen to Blair: "You'll be the Intrepid's acting captain"
Blair to crew: "I'm in charge of things around here"

In Peleus, Telamon and Axious, Blair just received a simple order from Wilford, and took all the decision about a ship. Just like a captain, when he receives orders from an admiral.

Ignore it all you want, but it doesn’t change reality by closing your eyes and shouting: “Blair didn’t command the Intrepid on Peleus, Telamon and Axious! Wilford was sending secret unmentioned tapes offscreen even when the ship was inside the communications blanket of Peleus, because I can’t be wrong! There’s no way Blair can command a ship because he’s a moron that wants to save mankind by fighting their enemies! How dare he save confed in a way that doesn’t meet my pre-conceived notions about military structure!”

Blair had a job to do. The attack was faltering, and the Bugs were very close to victory. Wilford said it all: "We need him". Blair is a man who archived victory on many different levels. Space combat, leadership, commanding a ship, debating in the senate, and fighting space bugs.

 

[dacis2]

Originally posted by Haesslich
If it only took ONE person to shut down that station... then why did it have to be Blair and not just some other pilot, or even some ensign or rating whose only job on Midway is to scrub the deck? Why did it have to be Blair?

And actually, being a flag-rank officer means his loss is bigger than another loss, if only because he has information useful for the Bugs to plan an invasion. They're usually the types of people who might have access to information about defenses... and given that he was involved with the Midway, sending him out the FIRST time to get caught was stupid - it means the Bugs would be able to learn about possible weaknesses in the Midway's design, and concentrate their attacks there. That's just one example of the problem.

They're valuable for what they know, as much as what they do.

Maniac: What we need, is a bonafide hero. Any heros around here?"

Blair: You're looking at him.

You think a crappy ensign could do it? Or the "Savior of the Confederation"?

 

[Quarto]

Originally posted by Haesslich
If it only took ONE person to shut down that station... then why did it have to be Blair and not just some other pilot, or even some ensign or rating whose only job on Midway is to scrub the deck? Why did it have to be Blair?

Because it didn't take one person - it took Blair specifically. He volunteered - nobody else did. He had the experience - he'd been face-to-face with bugs, he'd been (repeatedly) in hand-to-hand combat situations, and he was willing.
Sure, there might have been somebody else on the Midway who could have done it - but they didn't seem all too willing to try, did they?

Anyway, I don't wish to get into a protracted argument about the advantages and disadvantages of Blair flying either of his missions. But I don't think it's fair to say it was stupid of him to do so. He had his reasons.

 

[Aries]

Originally posted by Delance
Actually, in history is very common to have generals leading the battle themselves, and I gave numerous examples. There are many, many more.

of course history is full of examples of generals leading the battle themselves, because for the majority of history, the communications technology wasn't good enough for the general to stand back and command the battle, they had to be right up in front. why don't you look at WW1 to present. you'll find that there are few examples of the generals up front

Paladin also said his age was what stopped him from flying a fighter, not his rank.

and? the last mention of him flying in combat IIRC was in fleet action, when he was still a colonel i believe. so his rank allowed him to fly, but age stopped him

As for Blair and the tapes, it's where you are completely wrong. The tapes are about the fighter group briefing. They have nothing to do with running the ship.

and blair didn't 'run the ship'. just look at WC4 novel. it says:

Blair:Who's taking over for you, Captain?
Eisen:You are.
Blair:Me!? I'm Space Forces, not Fleet. I don't know the first thing about commanding a carrier.
Eisen: No, but we need someone of your rank to command the ship. Your're the only one we have available. You don't kave to look so stricken, Chris. Garibaldi'll be there. He'll stand at our right elbow and whisper sweet nothings in your ear.
Blair: Why not him, then? Then we wouldn't need the charade.
Eisen:Sorry, he's too juniot. It's you, Chris.

that clearly shows that Garibaldi, the exec, was in charge of the ship. Blair says it himself with the 'why not him' line. Blair was just the figure head who would get the blame if something went wrong and the credit if something went right. if you go further into the book, you'll find that when it comes to blair and commanding the carrier, all blair does is give the 'go orders' while the exec handles everything else, untill wilford comes abord and then he and the exec take care of everything, placing blair back into the pilot role

In Peleus, Telamon and Axious, Blair just received a simple order from Wilford, and took all the decision about a ship. Just like a captain, when he receives orders from an admiral.

see above

Blair had a job to do. The attack was faltering, and the Bugs were very close to victory. Wilford said it all: "We need him". Blair is a man who archived victory on many different levels. Space combat, leadership, commanding a ship, debating in the senate, and fighting space bugs.

yes, they needed blair to do a job he wasn't trained for and that 3 companies of marines, who were trained to do said job, couldn't do.

Originally posted by Quarto
Sure, there might have been somebody else on the Midway who could have done it - but they didn't seem all too willing to try, did they?

as i recall, they didn't ask if anyone was willing to do it. and as far as anyone on the midway knowing that they needed someone to go do it, the only ones were Wilford, Drake, Blair, Maniac, and Maestro.

 

[Delance]

Originally posted by Aries
you'll find that there are few examples of the generals up front

But you do find examples on WC.

WC is not current history, it's a sci-fi universe, comparing it to current examples is inaccurate. If you think this is an anachronism, just deal with it, there are numerous others on WC. The concept is WW2 in space, after all.

so his rank allowed him to fly, but age stopped him

My point exactly.

Blair:Me!? I'm Space Forces, not Fleet. I don't know the first thing about commanding a carrier.

You are blowing it out of proportion. Don’t take what Blair said literally, it was an hyperbole. Bear was SF and did a fine job as a ship captain, people rise up to the occasion. This is more Blair refusing power then anything else. Pay attention to this:

Eisen:Sorry, he's too juniot. It's you, Chris.

So Blair's attempt to not have the position failed. Now he had to do the job. All other examples we have (admiral ending, commodore) shows that Blair can make a fine fleet officer. How unusual is for the captain to have a XO? Blair didn't have much experience, so he required the help of a fleet officer. Big deal.

It’s possible for a SF officer to run a ship, as it’s possible for a navy officer to pilot a fighter, or Else Tolwyn would’ve made a mess when he did that.

You can't take that small novel part, blow it out or proportion and ignore large parts of the game game. The novel must be interpreted in light of the game, and vice versa. Taking both in account, it’s clear that Blair commanded the ship, took the tactical decisions, and needed the help from a fleet officer about specifics of running a carrier. It actually makes perfect sense.

It's the same thing on the Admiral ending. Blair gives an order, and his subordinates (Hawk, in case) work out the details. That's what commanding officers do. The game makes it clear that, regardless of his initial objections, Blair did took decisions in several occasions like Peleus, Telamon and Axious.

yes, they needed blair to do a job he wasn't trained for and that 3 companies of marines, who were trained to do said job, couldn't do.

So Blair, a commodore, had to single-handedly do the job that 3 experienced marine companies couldn't, and save confed in the process. For that, you call him a moron.

It's amazing how some characters like Tolwyn and Maniac make up weird ways to badmouth Blair, but you are getting at a whole new level here.

 

[Aries]

Originally posted by Delance
WC is not current history, it's a sci-fi universe, comparing it to current examples is inaccurate. If you think this is an anachronism, just deal with it, there are numerous others on WC. The concept is WW2 in space, after all.

fine, i'll compare it with, by your own admission, what it's supposed to be. in WW2, the generals stood back behind the lines and directed the fight, not directly fighting in it

My point exactly.

really? so, you were using Col. Taggert as an example of generals or admirals being able to fly in combat. forgive me if i don't understand that logic in that

You are blowing it out of proportion. Don’t take what Blair said literally, it was an hyperbole. Bear was SF and did a fine job as a ship captain, people rise up to the occasion. This is more Blair refusing power then anything else.

how am i blowing this out of proportion? i took it directly out of the book. the book clearly shows that all blair did as 'captain' of the intrepid is let his XO do everything and him just give the official orders, and you call that showing he can run a carrier?

So Blair's attempt to not have the position failed. Now he had to do the job. All other examples we have (admiral ending, commodore) shows that Blair can make a fine fleet officer. How unusual is for the captain to have a XO? Blair didn't have much experience, so he required the help of a fleet officer. Big deal.

admiral ending- he orders a revolt crushed
commodore-he heads up a R&D program and prevents others from doing their jobs
if that is the criteria for a fine fleet officer, confed is in a real fix. and as for blair needing help, the only thing he did was say go.

It’s possible for a SF officer to run a ship, as it’s possible for a navy officer to pilot a fighter, or Else Tolwyn would’ve made a mess when he did that.

if you read action stations, it show quite clearly that tolwyn was trained in flying a fighter

You can't take that small novel part, blow it out or proportion and ignore large parts of the game game. The novel must be interpreted in light of the game, and vice versa. Taking both in account, it’s clear that Blair commanded the ship, took the tactical decisions, and needed the help from a fleet officer about specifics of running a carrier. It actually makes perfect sense.

the only tactical decisions blair took were in regard to FIGHTER OPERATIONS and by looking at a map which anyone could do. i never said he didn't command the ship, i just said he didn't run the ship. and again, he didn't need help from the XO to run the carrier, because the XO ran the carrier

The game makes it clear that, regardless of his initial objections, Blair did took decisions in several occasions like Peleus, Telamon and Axious.

Peleus-what did blair do, he went out in a fighter and did fighter jobs
Telemon-what did blair do, he went out in a fighter and talked to people
Axius-what did blair do, he went out in a fighter, jumped into a different system, and did recon
how does this show blair's carrier command abilities that you say he has?

So Blair, a commodore, had to single-handedly do the job that 3 experienced marine companies couldn't, and save confed in the process. For that, you call him a moron.

for not letting other people do their jobs, i call him a moron

It's amazing how some characters like Tolwyn and Maniac make up weird ways to badmouth Blair, but you are getting at a whole new level here.

it's amazing how some people think that blair is god and can do everything

 

[Quarto]

Originally posted by Aries
commodore-he heads up a R&D program and prevents others from doing their jobs [...]
for not letting other people do their jobs, i call him a moron

Said it several times before, but I'll say it again. He wasn't preventing any people from doing their jobs, because they had already tried - and failed. Blair knows he's not a Marine. He went in because there was no actual Marines available.

Let's look at the facts. Blair volunteered, Wilford agreed that he's the right man for the job, and the CAG finally agreed too, albeit reluctantly. This is pretty clear evidence that of all the people on the Midway, Blair was the best qualified for this job. Had there been somebody else better, you can be completely certain that the CAG would have never agreed to let Blair do it.

 

[Delance]

Originally posted by Aries
fine, i'll compare it with, by your own admission, what it's supposed to be. in WW2, the generals stood back behind the lines and directed the fight, not directly fighting in it

Go read the meaning of anachronism. The factual reality is that this stuff HAPPENS in WC. If you don’t like it, it’s your problem, but your personal taste doesn’t affect game fiction. Ignore reality all you want, but stop annoying people.

really? so, you were using Col. Taggert as an example of generals or admirals being able to fly in combat. forgive me if i don't understand that logic in that

Well, I forgive you, because you are really displaying a lot of difficulty in understanding simple logic concepts. So, as requested, let's repeat: the reason Taggart couldn't fly is because he was too old, not because he was a general. It had nothing to do with rank, it was his age. If Taggart were a Colonel, he still couldn't fly.

how am i blowing this out of proportion?

Go to dictionary.com and read the meaning of hyperbole.

if that is the criteria for a fine fleet officer, confed is in a real fix.

Well, that's all we see them doing on WC. It's a sci-fi universe, after all. Again, if you don’t like it, fine. You have every right to. But that doesn’t actually affect the WC universe.

Axius-what did blair do, he went out in a fighter, jumped into a different system, and did recon

He choose to go the system closest to Axius. After the mission, Blair figures out a way to catch up with the Vesivuius. It’s so smart that Tolwyn shows surprised that Blair was able to catch up with him so soon.

Officer: "Sir, I don't know where it came from, but the Intrepid is closing!"
Tolwyn looks surprised, and says: "All right, colonel, let's make this interesting... Full 180 now!"

Unless you have a theory about how Blair's XO was telepathic, it's clear Blair came up with that idea on his own.

how does this show blair's carrier command abilities that you say he has?

Blair did in WC4 what every single other captain do in all WC games. Where do you see a captain do more stuff than that on a WC game? What game standard does he not meet?

for not letting other people do their jobs, i call him a moron

Oh, cut the Bullshit. You are just trolling now. Just drop it.

it's amazing how some people think that blair is god and can do everything

And every single one of those people have worked for Origin on WC games, because every single thing you babble about Blair couldn't do actually happened on a WC game.

If Blair goes on a risk mission to finish the jobs that elite marines couldn't, you call him a moron because he is stealing jobs. That's so completely moronic it's hard to even come up with a response. The utter stupidity is self-evident.

 

[Kalfor]

about Thrakath on frontlines, its quite obvious that, to be a leader in the kilrathi society, you got to show you are an able leader and warrior. As it says in one of the books, the Emperor butchered the varni, his father the..Wu I think and his heir would do the same to the humans. the emperor`s cybernetic parts are due to his wounds fighting the Varni Republic. You dont even need to read that specifically to conclude to kat society and culture one must show fangs and teeth to be respected
Now, the emperor not wanting thrak in the front lines in a fighter is quite easy to explain later. the emperor`s son is dead, and so is the older child, and Thrak, the only direct heir, has no children
If he died, there would be a serious problem to give control to a lesser cousin

And paladin was part of Intelligence, wasnt him? It would explain too why he would not be piloting anymore as a General

and on Blair, we all know every well Blair is quite egocentric (remember the first mission in WC2, when he says he saves Concordia and tells Angel he knew he was the only person able to do it?). Him taking action when others could was part that, and also the fact that, in the end, Blair couldnt feel confortable not in the actual action. Its all part of the character`s personality, so lets drop the "hes a moron" and "hes a god" discussion, which is quite pointless